GODS EVOLUTION OF THE UNIVERSE or GENISIS part one

[MerlinsByte]

GODS EVOLUTION OF THE UNIVERSE or GENISIS part one

(Part one)

I have touched on this subject before. As a open theist (1), I believe that in the spatial temporal universe natural law runs freely with infinitesimal input (2) from god the or the ID.

Lets call this creator of the universe GID (god the Intelligent Designer) for this thread. So what is GID? This is an enity, force or energy that began space-time and existed “before” space-time. Today’s physics cannot describe this GID just as they cannot describe what happens at the singularity of a super massive black hole. (3).

End of part one (4)

Mb

Notes


1.… Type open theism in your browser for hundreds of good references on the subject.

2... (Infinitesimal input) God or GID does not usually interfere with natural but can and does.

3... (singularity of supermassive black hole).A super massive black hole is a billion suns or so compressed to a incredibly small area. It is so dense that light moving at 186,000 miles per SECOND, cannot escape its grasp. At the singularity all know laws of physics break down.

(4)... I have drastically shortened these threads for facilitating accurate answering of responses if any. After 48>< hours I will continue with the next part. Abusive or off topic posts will not be addressed.

[Lilith]

Quote by: MerlinsByte This is an enity, force or energy that began space-time and existed “before” space-time.

I can swallow that. But I think where humanity goes wrong is when we try to give the "Gid" a face, gender, etc. There is something greater than us, I'm just not sure what it is. I think I have an idea, but it's still a novice thought, not ready for expression yet.

[MerlinsByte]

By Lilith......I can swallow that. But I think where humanity goes wrong is when we try to give the "Gid" a face, gender, etc. There is something greater than us; I'm just not sure what it is. I think I have an idea, but it's still a novice thought, not ready for expression yet.

Merlin writes....Yes I agree that GID or (God/Intelligent Designer) has no gender or race or for that matter this enity is unknown in substance and form to us.

The Old Testament God KJV of the bible (Yahweh the actual name of the GID that I worship) is usually manifested as a burning bush or something as abstract. A bush that will not burn sounds interesting to me, liked a form of matter that was unknown at the time.

I am leaning towards open theism, and have provided two links below one pro and one con. Open theists believe that gods “powers” are limited and not absolute. I agree with most of the doctrine that I’ve read about open theism.

Mb

Ps I would like to know what you beliefs are when its ready. If its something other than the mainstream fit for the masses consumption, you better be ready to slay a few dragons!

mb


Open theists links


http://www.carm.org/open.htm
http://encyclopedia.lockergnome.com/s/b/Open_Theism

[tinybear]

Darwin on trial: Evolution hearings open in Kansas

By Carey Gillam
TOPEKA, Kan. (Reuters) - A six-day courtroom-style debate opened on Thursday in Kansas over what children should be taught in schools about the origin of life -- was it natural evolution or did God create the world?

The hearings, complete with opposing attorneys and a long list of witnesses, were arranged amid efforts by some Christian groups in Kansas and nationally to reverse the domination of evolutionary theory in the nation's schools.

William Harris, a medical researcher and co-founder of a Kansas group called the Intelligent Design Network, posed the core question about life's beginnings before mapping out why he and other Christians want changes in school curriculum.

School science classes are teaching children that life evolved naturally and randomly, Harris said, arguing that this was in conflict with Biblical teachings that God created life.

"They are offering an answer that may be in conflict with religious views," Harris said in opening the debate. "Part of our overall goal is to remove the bias against religion that is currently in schools. This is a scientific controversy that has powerful religious implications."

Full Story: http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/sto...5.htm&sc=roptz

[MerlinsByte]

excerpt...Darwin on trial: Evolution hearings open in Kansas"......They are offering an answer that may be in conflict with religious views," Harris said in opening the debate. "Part of our overall goal is to remove the bias against religion that is currently in schools. This is a scientific controversy that has powerful religious implications."

MERLIN writes..Interesting. "They are offering an answer that may be in conflict with religious views," Harris said in opening the debate. "Part of our overall goal is to remove the bias against religion that is currently in schools. This is a scientific controversy that has powerful religious implications."


Tiny’s post was a bit off topic nevertheless, I will respond. I don’t have a problem with church and state being separate. That is a good thing up to a point. My conflict with the theory of evolution being taught in exclusivity, rejecting any other theories such as Intelligent Design.



mb

[Lilith]

I don't think Evolution can be denied. Well it can't, really. So here's a question Merlin....I mean just say that there is an Intelligent Designer of life and the universe....then what does that mean ? Really entail? That ok, so there is some ID out there, so when we die, what happens? Isin't that why most people want so bad to believe that there is something more than just this life? So when we die there is just not Nothing? Noone likes to think that there is nothing after death, every civilization, since the dawn of human memory, has had a fascination with *life after death*, is that not the sole purpose of believing in an ID? Is that what the belief in an ID means for you, Merlin?

Don't get me wrong. I have stated before that I believe in something greater than us, but I'm just not sure what. I don't think it is anything *seperate* from us, I believe that. I believe we are all interconnected. I believe our thoughts have power, we create our own reality. So maybe that is it, we are own *gods*, who knows. Our souls keep reincarnating, until we *get it right*, maybe? *shrugs* *sigh*....I need to go get some more coffee.

[MerlinsByte]

Excerpt .....BY LILITH...Don't think Evolution can be denied. Well, it can't, really. So here's a question Merlin....civilization, since the dawn of human memory, has had a fascination with *life after death*, is that not the sole purpose of believing in an ID? Is that what the belief in an ID means for you, Merlin?................... EXCERPTED....................... .................................................................................................... ..... Don't get me wrong. I have stated before that I believe in something greater than us, but I'm just not sure what. I don't think it is anything *seperate* from us, I believe that. I believe we are all interconnected. I believe our thoughts have power, we create our own reality. So maybe that is it, we are own *gods*, who knows. Our souls keep reincarnating, until we *get it right*, maybe? *shrugs* *sigh*....I need to go get some more coffee.

mb writes....I do not have a problem with evolution within the framework of the phylum, that is reptile mammal insect, etc. In fact, is a fact. I think that the myth occurs when evolution tells us that a species mutates from one phylum to another. This is over simplifying it for conciseness. Most evolutionists believe that life on earth or elsewhere arose from chemicals in the early atmosphere, and a prebotic soup of organic chemicals. I don't agree! Even if there were oceans of these organic chemicals think that today we would still have oceans of chemicals not life. Time is the problem, the 1 billion (thousand million) years are not enough time to produce the life and 3(+ - a billion or two) are not nearly enough to produce even the most simple insect. I am schooled in Evolutionary biology and I reject it.

So I take issue with the (myth) that first life (anywhere in the universe ) "evolved " from chemicals. These are uncomplicated systems becoming more complex by chance. I do not believe in life coming from inorganic or organic compounds or elements without input from a GID.(God or Intelligent Designer).

Now for my beliefs of what GID is? I think that in this flesh and blood body , we are blocked from knowing the true nature of it. I have some ideas why we cant comprehend this GID, in a normal fashion. Prayers Majack (modern ritual, magic, paganism, Transcendental Meditation TM, and more) are some ways that we can at least acquaint ourselves with GIDs methods and his or its love (I feel its genderless of course) .

I feel that when GID created our souls it instilled a portion if itself in each one of us. I think when we Die we will return to GID as one entity, or ? This is the openness that deep meditation gives us. It is a glimpse of God . GID is oneness. We were once of god and will return to god. I think we will be conscious of our individuality also and will remain with free will.

Now what of Jesus? Jesus was real man, in the flesh. Jesus was instilled with the spirit of GID because he was an interface or a liaison between man and GID. God chose this form of Jesus in an atom based flesh and blood body for reasons unknown but not unknowable. GID's real form is not understanadable to us. I suspect that it does not have a form or anything in else that our reality prepares us for.

So to summarize, I feel when we die our soul will return to GID there is no burning hell and one way street to heaven. And, of course these are MY OPINIONS (pooey).

This is a radically shortened version did I answer your questions Lilith?
Thanks for keeping an open mind, and I would like to know your beliefs (in detail) as well when you are ready.

mb

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: MerlinsByte MERLIN writes..Interesting. "They are offering an answer that may be in conflict with religious views," Harris said in opening the debate. "Part of our overall goal is to remove the bias against religion that is currently in schools. This is a scientific controversy that has powerful religious implications." Tiny’s post was a bit off topic nevertheless, I will respond. I don’t have a problem with church and state being separate. That is a good thing up to a point. My conflict with the theory of evolution being taught in exclusivity, rejecting any other theories such as Intelligent Design. mb

Intelligent design is not a scientific theory, that is why it is not taught. I would gladly have it taught in Religious education classes, it counts as a modern myth after all.

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: MerlinsByte mb writes....I do not have a problem with evolution within the framework of the phylum, that is reptile mammal insect, etc. In fact, is a fact. I think that the myth occurs when evolution tells us that a species mutates from one phylum to another. This is over simplifying it for conciseness.

This IS your consciousness oversimplying things. One species does not simply evolve into another phylum, that's just nonsensical. It'll need to have speciated many times before it is even consider in another group or family. Phylum is just a name for which we use to catagorise organisms, it doesn't actually exist. Now get that through your thick head before you repeat this same garbage again.

Quote by: MerlinsByte Most evolutionists believe that life on earth or elsewhere arose from chemicals in the early atmosphere, and a prebotic soup of organic chemicals. I don't agree! Even if there were oceans of these organic chemicals think that today we would still have oceans of chemicals not life. Time is the problem, the 1 billion (thousand million) years are not enough time to produce the life and 3(+ - a billion or two) are not nearly enough to produce even the most simple insect. I am schooled in Evolutionary biology and I reject it.

You are most certainly not schooled in evolutionary biology, you are a liar and a bad one at that. You've shown already, time and time again that your grasp of the evolution theory is minimal, you can't even make the distinction between evolution by natural selection and abiogenesis, although I think it is just selective ignorance as I've told you many times over.
You've read a couple of creationist articles which have made arguments that have little relevance to evolution. Whether the first life was made by God or by natural means, it doesn't matter, evolution occurs after the first life and we know that as certainly as we know that the Earth orbits the sun. To deny otherwise is to conflict against reality.

[MerlinsByte]

POOEY WRIES...."This IS your (consciousness) oversimplying things"

Merlin writes...."pooey slow down take a breathe in a bag to controll hypervenitlation ..."


1 : marked by brevity of expression or statement : free from all elaboration and superfluous detail
2 : cut short : BRIEF


Quote by: MerlinsByte
mb writes....I do not have a problem with evolution within the framework of the phylum, that is reptile mammal insect, etc. In fact, is a fact. I think that the myth occurs when evolution tells us that a species mutates from one phylum to another. This is over simplifying it for conciseness.

- con·cise·ness-

mb

[MerlinsByte]

By POOEYPANTS..."you are a liar and a bad one at that"

MERLIN smiles....Now pooey I told you about the insulting behavior. And what was your specific question?

Just for the record where did I say that life from inorganic was the same as evolutionary biology?

mb


I refuse to have a battle of wits with a defenseless person: Unknown author

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: MerlinsByte MERLIN smiles....Now pooey I told you about the insulting behavior. And what was your specific question? Just for the record where did I say that life from inorganic was the same as evolutionary biology? mb I refuse to have a battle of wits with a defenseless person: Unknown author

It is not insulting, I merely stated a legitimate fact. You claim to be something that you're not. Clearly you were refering to Evolution by natural selection, especially with regard to the phylum comment. You then proceeded to make further comment on abiogenesis and claim that because you're "schooled in evolutionary biology", you reject it because you believe that Evolutionary biology is a direct authority over abiogenesis.

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: MerlinsByte Merlin writes...."pooey slow down take a breathe in a bag to controll hypervenitlation ..." 1 : marked by brevity of expression or statement : free from all elaboration and superfluous detail 2 : cut short : BRIEF Quote by: MerlinsByte mb writes....I do not have a problem with evolution within the framework of the phylum, that is reptile mammal insect, etc. In fact, is a fact. I think that the myth occurs when evolution tells us that a species mutates from one phylum to another. This is over simplifying it for conciseness. - con·cise·ness- mb

What I said still holds relevance, it is your own mind or consciousness that is oversimplying the issue. Unless ofc, we'd like to argue that it is your mind that does the thinking for you.

[Lilith]

So I take issue with the (myth) that first life (anywhere in the universe ) "evolved " from chemicals. These are uncomplicated systems becoming more complex by chance. I do not believe in life coming from inorganic or organic compounds or elements without input from a GID.(God or Intelligent Designer).

A method to the madness? Interesting.

Now for my beliefs of what GID is? I think that in this flesh and blood body , we are blocked from knowing the true nature of it. I have some ideas why we cant comprehend this GID, in a normal fashion. Prayers Majack (modern ritual, magic, paganism, Transcendental Meditation TM, and more) are some ways that we can at least acquaint ourselves with GIDs methods and his or its love (I feel its genderless of course) .

Maye we have forgotten ? Just a matter of remebering, transcending, or whatever term you want to use.

I feel that when GID created our souls it instilled a portion if itself in each one of us. I think when we Die we will return to GID as one entity, or ? This is the openness that deep meditation gives us. It is a glimpse of God . GID is oneness. We were once of god and will return to god. I think we will be conscious of our individuality also and will remain with free will.

Maybe our souls weren't created, but just are parts of the bigger whole? When we return to GID, we're returning to Source. But I don't know if we will be conscious of our individuality and remain with free will, that still kind of sounds like residing in some Heaven and congregating with everyone else.

[eggosphere]

Ok. GID. So far whats been said, GID is seperate intelligence creating concious essance and thus matter. ( if some one is argueing that point just bare with me) I see a GID as a composition of all intelligent and non aware forms of conciousness acting as a network of nodes to weave the existence we know and debatebly love [i like my corner of it at least ^_^]. Im goin to take the view that Humans are the most technicly intelligent forms of conciousness in this existance, from the idea that to occupy this awareness we have progressed an immaculacly formed evalution from the birth of the the universe to current day. All our local conditions are just right, to rewind a fraction of life would inevitible create a wildly different outcome than what we are today. Even narrowing it down to my own personall existance, i know theres a beutifully constructed purpose for what is. That kind of perception spurrs the though of intellegent design. Not a moment of a day goes by with out the evolving construction of my doings has some reaction that in retrospect creates a larger design with concious form. And then i have some vividly surreal moments i look back on that i know were designed for me, and equally created on my own level. Creation lives on many levels. The world i live with in, altho i belive in my ultimate will, the world reflects my doings with an awareness of its own, its awareness of me. Its up to the individual to take notice of this design a interperate it as the choose.

So, an inteligant designer? We create it as much as it creates us, thinking and its inherent perceptions are what ultimately create. There is no hard wired design, life is a dynamic force. In real time, we look on a micro level. On greater time bands we see a new perspective on all thats come and interpret it as a creature all of its own. Like staring at a pixel on your screen, just a flickering phosfer. Pull your head back and you realise this phosper flickers in tune with thousands of other phospers to create a picture that makes use of the entire dimension of the screen.

Life is beutifully weird, take notice of it.

[MerlinsByte]

to eggosphere

Yes, in my paradigm your views are interesting and attractive in that they express the type of thinking that is necessary to advance science and religion rather than hinder these disciplines.

And you are in good company thinking that your and by a casual connection my universe makes up things as it goes along. GID does not interfere with the natural law universe. It was set in motion for an as yet undetermined purpose. Our purpose as sentient observers of our local universe and therefore all other universes to insure that it is not destroyed by negative or destructive forces (i.e. sin).

I also believe that we are predestined , however we also have free will due to probably outcomes as related to quantum theory and the universe as a closed system with the GID seeing our universe as a small reference frame experiment, so to speak. In other words we don’t know the path we will take and neither does GID. But the physics that this GID uses gives it a much higher level of accurately that a human observer doing a quantum experiment.

Thanks for your response.

[MerlinsByte]

A method to the madness? Interesting.

To Lilith…. Yes, you might call it that Lilith. There are some good books on the subject of creative forces in the early universe as well as some good ones with a secular view. I think that there is a small possibility that this universe is infinite with no beginning in or end or one in a series of infinite universes (super string and the M theory predict that). However I feel that it takes more faith to believe in these spectacular theories (and they are often beautiful with the accompanying elegant mathematics) that it does to have faith in a GID.

Maybe we have forgotten? Just a matter of remembering, transcending, or whatever term you want to use.

I think you are correct. At the risk of more ridicule from the usual suspects, I can remember learning to walk and how incredibly difficult it was to learn. It seemed my brain and legs were not connected and I had to will the nerves to grow it was so challenging. I seem to remember back to nearly birth. I feel that true, or extensive self-awareness isn't possible until we learn some language. At birth we are yet more connected to the one than an individual.

So yes I think you are correct if you believe that we have forgot (by design)? Who we are at birth and where we come from.

Maybe our souls weren't created, but just are parts of the bigger whole? When we return to GID, we're returning to Source. But I don't know if we will be conscious of our individuality and remain with free will, that still kind of sounds like residing in some Heaven and congregating with everyone else.

Yes, again and I am struggling with the Individually thing. I like you, I suppose that it's more credible to believe that we will only be a part of the larger whole. But there is hope, as scripture and some eastern (and south American) texts and glyphs indicate that the physical world will be changed (at some time yet unforseen) and perhaps we will be allowed to keep our individual selves so to speak, in this new universe.(and maybe get to visit our old one!...I can hope cant I?

Thanks for your input Lilth.

mb

[Prometheus]

Intellegent design is not science. It is the totally non-scientific theory or creationism wrapped is a pseudoscience theory that can't get peer reviewed anywhere. Creationists are trying to find a scientific basis for their beleifs - but it isn't there. Billing ID as science is just silly. No reputable scientist or institution will give it the time of day, and no journal will touch it either.


People in Kansas are dumb-dumb heads.

We don't even teach creationism here in Utah, and religion runs this bloody state.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Prometheus Intellegent design is not science. It is the totally non-scientific theory or creationism wrapped is a pseudoscience theory that can't get peer reviewed anywhere. Creationists are trying to find a scientific basis for their beleifs - but it isn't there. Billing ID as science is just silly. No reputable scientist or institution will give it the time of day, and no journal will touch it either.

As stupid as ID is and those that see it as being a legitimate "scientific" theory it does point out one very interesting sea change in the minds of magical thinkers. In some sense they have joined the scientific movement even if they are mostly ignorant of it by adopting the trappings of science if not the essence of science. They have admitted defeat without even knowing it. They are admitting that the universe is not well explained by ghosts, demons, devils, souls, sin, gods and the likes and now have a vague concept of the actual entities that explain the universe such as photons, DNA, stars, strong nuclear force and so on. They are still animists since they still want to ascribe some kind of mind to how these things operate. If they actually knew a dang thing about science they would know that at the root of it what is in play are purely mindless forces that are presumed to follow some set of rules unswervingly. The goal of science is not to find the mind in the universe but to find the rules of the universe. At best the only kind of god that a person who ascribes to science and the supernatural can reasonably support is a deist god. A fire and forget god. A god that for all intents and purposes has been gone for at least 13.5 billion years.

We don't even teach creationism here in Utah, and religion runs this bloody state.

Give it time. The demon filled world will have to come out into the sunshine in order for it to be disposed of.

Starboy