Prayers answered or not?

[Gorgo]

In the London Times Troy Driscoll says that God didn't answer his prayers.

“I asked God to take me. You’re out there fighting for your life. We didn’t want to fight anymore.”

In USA TODAY Troy says, "We just prayed every day. We prayed for our families, prayed for our lives, prayed to get home. God answered us," Long told CBS's Early Show on Monday. "I knew he wouldn't let us suffer for no reason."

What's god got to do with anything here?

[PatrickHenry]

Your belief system doesn't converge with that of these teens, Gorgo. What is your actual contention?

[Gorgo]

My actual contention is that people talk about gods and miracles a lot, but the fact is they screwed up, and somebody in a fishing boat saved them.

Why do we need anything else added to that?

[PatrickHenry]

Well, it is a part of the published story because of the beliefs of the boys. What purpose do you have in casting aspersions on their personal experience?

[Gorgo]

You don't like the question?

What does god have to do with any of it? Why are we always hearing about how wonderful it is that god saved some people (but not the worthless others) who survived the attacks of 9/11? Why do need to leap to fantasy creation when reality does so much better?

[PatrickHenry]

Do you believe in only one reality, Gorgo? Only yours has validity? I don't deny the existence of your Godless reality. Why do you deny others the reality that provides meaning for them? The reality of a universe filled with the presence of God?

[Gorgo]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Why do you deny others the reality that provides meaning for them?

Again, this is a false sense of worth that you are attempting to add to reality. What "meaning" do you think is added by what is said in these two differing accounts of gods?

[Runa216]

Pray to a Toilet, the results will be the same.

Runa

[Starboy]

Quote by: Runa216 Pray to a Toilet, the results will be the same. Runa

If only. At least a toilet will remove the shit when flushed.

Starboy

[Gorgo]

I've prayed at the porcelain altar.

[Trent]

If God exists (with no shred of evidence) - then he is an evil, murdering shit who enjoys watching men killing their own kind and it's about time we dropped him (with a resounding splash) for good.

Then we can pull the chain, wash our hands and walk away. Start taking personal responsibility for what we do to each other.

That would be freedom indeed.

Trent

[PatrickHenry]

Trent, you blame God for evil in the same sentence where you deny He exists? And you atheists say I am illogical...

[Pale RIder]

I don't quite understand the fear that drives some to rail against the faith of others.

I am Christian. I don't ask God for things because I don't see God as a genie who is in the business of making wishes come true. I ask for strength, for patience, for wisdom and I believe I find those things in my faith and those things are sufficient to get us through most of our trials.

I suppose in the realm of possibilities there is a chance that God doesn't exist. I don't believe it, but I suppose the possibility is there. If that is true, and when I die it is just lights out, the end, then I really haven't hurt myself or anyone else by trying to live a good life by an established set of morals. I suppose the joke will have been on me. But if I die, and find myself in a place of judgement, then the joke will be on....well...you know who the joke will be on.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Pale RIder I don't quite understand the fear that drives some to rail against the faith of others.

My point is to tell you you can let go of the fear that creates your need for fantasy.

Quote by: Pale RIder I don't ask God for things

Quote by: Pale RIder I ask for strength, for patience, for wisdom

You know enough to ask god for things that you are really doing yourself. That's what most adults who aren't completely insane eventually do.

Quote by: Pale RIder well...you know who the joke will be on.

This gets into the mental disorder that is theism. Pascal's wager means that you don't really believe in the supernatural, but if there's a chance that you'll be in that special club in heaven laughing at all those in hell, then you want to be there because it's the only chance that you'll be worth anything at all in your mind.

[Pale RIder]

I thouroughly believe in Heaven and Hell. I won't be laughing at those who don't make it to heaven.

There is evidence enough to suggest that people of faith have access to reserves of strength, wisdom, and patience that non believers don't. Several large, liberal universities have been stymied by the results of studies on prayer, and those who pray. Personally, I find it childish and foolish in the extreme to rail against God, but I would never suggest that you have a mental disorder because you do a thing that I think is patently stupid. But then, I don't fear your lack of faith.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Pale RIder would never suggest that you have a mental disorder because you do a thing that I think is patently stupid

You would, of course, have no reasonable evidence for such a thing.

Please cite evidence that several "large, liberal universities have been stymied" and please tell me why it matters. Prayer is little more than placebo at best.

[Sonart]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Well, it is a part of the published story because of the beliefs of the boys. What purpose do you have in casting aspersions on their personal experience?

I think it's fine that their (the boys) belief helped them find strength and hope in the face of their ordeal. Hope goes a long way in survival. But it pisses me off to have folks go before the cameras and declare that "God answered their prayers" and saved them. I go back to my example of a plane crash in which some survive and many others don't. When the survivors go before the world and declare that "God answered our prayers and saved us", what are they actually saying? That those who didn't survive didn't pray hard enough? Or that God arbitrarily chose to answer some prayers but not others? If it's the latter, then what's the difference between God's arbitrary fickleness and pure dumb luck?

Quote by: PaleRIder Several large, liberal universities have been stymied by the results of studies on prayer, and those who pray.

Number one, why would you assume the universities have been "stymied" by the results of their own inquiries, unless your own prejudice alone defined it as such, and two, since the results were the same whether it was Christian prayers, Buddhist prayers or simple meditation, the studies didn't demonstrate evidence of anyone's particular god as much as some power within prayer/meditation itself.

Quote by: PaleRIder But then, I don't fear your lack of faith.

Well I certainly do fear your faith, since it empowers so many people to discriminate against me.

But if I die, and find myself in a place of judgement, then the joke will be on....well...you know who the joke will be on.

So you're saying it doesn't matter whether we've lived a moral life or not, or whether we've done good works or not, it's just a matter of which god we believe in?


.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Sonart I think it's fine that their (the boys) belief helped them find strength and hope in the face of their ordeal. Hope goes a long way in survival. But it pisses me off to have folks go before the cameras and declare that "God answered their prayers" and saved them. I go back to my example of a plane crash in which some survive and many others don't. When the survivors go before the world and declare that "God answered our prayers and saved us", what are they actually saying? That those who didn't survive didn't pray hard enough? Or that God arbitrarily chose to answer some prayers but not others? If it's the latter, then what's the difference between God's arbitrary fickleness and pure dumb luck?

This is a strawman, Sonart. A hypothetical example that you set up so you can knock it down. At least be honest and cite a real example. These boys prayed and feel like their prayers were answered. You just enjoy hearing yourself rant.

[Sonart]

Quote by: PatrickHenry At least be honest and cite a real example.

Actually, Patrick, I am citing a real example. Many real examples, actually. Specifically I was thinking back to the crash of United flight 232 in Sioux City, Iowa, in which 13 were unscratched, 172 were injured and 111 died. I was livid listening to some couple explain how their prayers were answered... again, what about the 111 who perished? C'mon, Patrick, answer my question. Did those others not pray hard enough or did God simply arbitrarily allow them to die and others to live?

And let's you be honest. This happens all the time, in one disaster after another. Some survivors, despite the deaths of many others, are always convinced that their specific appeals to God were answered. Do you deny it?

Another example: Serena Williams announcing that Jesus won Wimbleton for her. Now I have no doubt that faith can provide focus, drive and confidence to help someone compete. But do you really believe that God or Jesus stepped into a tennis match to answer one person's prayers but not those of the vast majority who lost? Is Serena's faith verifiably stronger than her competitions?

The only difference in the current example is that no one else died when the two boys survived, yet how many people are swept out to sea and die every year? Certainly a couple hundred thousand during the recent tsunami. What, was God taking a day off at the time?

Did the boy's faith help them through their ordeal? I have no doubt. But I have to wonder what some deeply religious families are thinking, wondering why God chose to save these boys from their own damn stupidity (news reports made clear that the boys made just about every wrong decision they could have), yet didn't save their own loved ones who perished somewhere for no other reason than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, assuredly despite equally devout prayers to God.

If these boys wanna say that their belief made them stronger and helped them save themselves, fine, I can accept that. But to say that God stepped in and saved them, while allowing thousands of others in similar dire straits to die? You think the fishermen aboard, say, the Andrea Gail weren't praying to God with every fiber of their being? Sorry guys, not good enough.

God working in his mysterious ways again?

.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Sonart Did the boy's faith help them through their ordeal? I have no doubt.

Faith in what? They prayed to die.