Prayers answered or not?

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Gorgo Again, prayers to god is just talking to oneself. That may be effective, or ineffective, depending on the talk and the goal involved. I cannot talk to myself and have that effect your health.

The studies (a lot of them) differ with your opinion. Perhaps you can not talk to yourself and effect my health...but I can talk to God and effect yours. For the better that is, I doubt that God would strike you with boils at my request.

[MerlinsByte]

Quote by: Gorgo Again, prayers to god is just talking to oneself. That may be effective, or ineffective, depending on the talk and the goal involved. I cannot talk to myself and have that effect your health.

How is your heart Gorgo...the real one?


Living on a prayer? Some heart patients at St. Luke's Hospital in Kansas City, Mo., just might be. A recent study at this hospital evaluated the effects of anonymous prayer on 1,000 heart patients. One half of the patients received prayer from a five-person team of Christians in addition to normal treatment, while others received just normal care. Patients who received prayer performed 10 percent better on a medical index of complications created for the study, according to the results published in the Archives of Internal Medicine.

[JamesMcBride]

Even if prayer is proven to be nothing more than a Placebo - this is still a good thing!

Prayer / meditation is a very personal way of opening up a dialogue to your god / self and I don't see anything negative whatsoever with this practice.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: JamesMcBride Even if prayer is proven to be nothing more than a Placebo - this is still a good thing!

Not always.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: MerlinsByte A recent study at this hospital

There are lots of studies which show lots of silly things.

[JamesMcBride]

Quote by: Gorgo Not always.

Oh for sure - the suggestion of harm onto another individual is a horrible thing, although if it turns out that a prayer creates placebo effects then there's no doubt in my mind that it can only be productive...

I'm not sure what kind of theist would pray to an "all loving God" asking for harm upon their peers.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: JamesMcBride I'm not sure what kind of theist would pray to an "all loving God" asking for harm upon their peers.

What they pray for someone else alone, only affects the one praying, not intended recipient of the prayer.

[Gorgo]

Again:

http://www.skepdic.com/prayer.html

[JamesMcBride]

Quote by: Gorgo What they pray for someone else alone, only affects the one praying, not intended recipient of the prayer.

Exactly - so prayer, even if it is a placebo - can only ever be a productive one :)

[Gorgo]

Quote by: JamesMcBride Exactly - so prayer, even if it is a placebo - can only ever be a productive one

Again, if people think in productive ways, that is beneficial. Believing in the supernatural is rarely a productive thing.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Sonart And how many of the studies involved Christian prayer ONLY, in which no comparison was made? There's your explanation for 'some'. From your links... --"Harris and team examined the health outcomes of nearly 1,000 newly admitted heart patients at St. Luke's. The patients, who all had serious cardiac conditions, were randomly assigned to two groups. Half received daily prayer for four weeks from five volunteers who believed in God and in the healing power of prayer. The other half received no prayer in conjunction with the study. The volunteers were all Christians."-- No effort here to distinquish results from different types of prayer. All the easier to attribute it to God, I suppose. By the way, are you aware that your 3 links show exactly the same study? A tad disingenuous, don't you think?

As I said, none of the studies has been published on the internet. It is easy enough to research what studies have been done, and by who and at that point, the study may be purchased from the university that sponsored it. Most of the serious studies have invovled other religions and non religious people who "thought good thoughts" the results are consistent.

Quote by: Sonart Considering that the interview was in 1987, why am I not surprised that you couldn't find a media reference. However, the quote seems pretty consistantly documented...

Consistent in certain, specific circles...ie. cut and paste.

Quote by: Sonart --"one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I. Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the press corps covering the national candidates had the following exchange with then Vice President Bush."-- ...and I suspect that no where in your extensive search did you find a denial that such a statement was made. But of course, I keep forgetting... atheists by definition are immoral liars.

No, I didn't find a denial in a credible news source either. Of course, I haven't found a denial that the moon is made of cheese in a credible news source either.

And again, even if it is true, one man's opinion discriminates against you....how?

Quote by: Sonart What, it's not enough that all across this country, men of Gawd, both in the pulpit and on TV, continue informing my fellow Americans that I am the lowest form of life on earth? Is it any wonder that, aside from this board, I tend to keep my mouth shut when the subject of religious affiliation comes up? Think I could run for political office?

Again...how is the power of government brought to bear against you? And of course you can run for office, there are athiests serving in all levels of government; local, state, and national

Quote by: Sonart Here in San Diego there's been an ongoing fight over the Mt. Soledad Cross, which sits on Federal land. In their efforts to deny that it's government sponsored advocacy of a specific religion, cross supporters argue that the Cross was erected as a war memorial, that just 'happens' to be in the shape of a cross. The way I see it, the memorial honors Christian veterans, period.

And this discriminates against you...how? A cross on federal land as a memorial to soldiers discriminates against you? I take it that you have never been to Arlington National Cemetary. You could really be offended there.

http://www.audiemurphy.com/arlingtn.htm

Quote by: Sonart The issue of school prayer.

Discriminates against you how?

Quote by: Sonart The Boy Scouts of America.

Discriminates against you how?

Quote by: Sonart Congress debated an amendment to the Civil Rights Act of 1963 which would have removed the protection of prohibitions against religious discrimination from atheists. Proposed by Ohio Republican John Ashbrook, the amendment read: "...it shall not be an unlawful employment practice for an employer to refuse to hire and employ any person because of said persons' atheistic practices and beliefs." The amendment was passed by the House of Representatives, 137-98, but it failed to pass the Senate. Other examples

Did the bill pass? Is it law? It has brought the power of government against you how?

It is clear that you are not going to provide any specific examples of the power of government being brought to bear against individuals for their non belief. Probably because there aren't any. But let me give you some examples of the power of government being used against citizens for thier belief.

Raymond Raines, 4th grader, at Waring Elementary School in St. Louis bowed his head and silently blessed his food in the cafeteria. His teacher pulled him away from the table and took him to the office where the principal told him that it was against the rules to pray in school (even silently). He continued to bless his food and was removed from the cafeteria two more times and disiplined. The school adminstration then segregated him from his classmates and subjected him to ridicule specifically for his belief in God and eventually he was given a week long detention for silently blessing his food.

At Lucas Middle School, a teacher took two bibles away from a pair of sisters, and informed the sisters in the middle of a crowded hallway that "this is garbage" and tossed the bibles in the trash. The teacher then called the girl's mother and threatened to call child protective services.

In May, 1995 US District judge Samuel B. Kent decreed that any student who said the word Jesus would be arrested and issued the following statement:

"And make no mistake, this court is going to have a United States marshall in attendance at the graduation . If any student offends this court, that student will be summarily arrested and will face up to 6 months incarceration in the Galvaston County Jail for contempt of court. Anyone who thinks that I am kidding, is going to wish that he or she and died as a child when this court gets through with them."

I could list examples for you all day, but is it really necessary? The fact is that it is Christians who are being discriminated against, and it is Christians that are having the heavy hand of government used against them as opposed to your feigned, and pretend discrimination.

[JamesMcBride]

Quote by: Pale RIder and it is Christians that are having the heavy hand of government used against them as opposed to your feigned, and pretend discrimination.

*sigh* It's back to the good old days for Christians... I'm wondering though, whether Christianity actually gains support during times of oppression? I think it does.

France tried a similar tactic by banning ALL religious motifs in its schools - like I said, the ethical aspects of this spread right across the board, I would have liked to sat in on the committee's that decided it :)

[Gorgo]

As usual, Christians see oppression as losing some of their ability to impose their wild ideas on others.

[batou]

i dont think he answers the prayers at all.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Gorgo As usual, Christians see oppression as losing some of their ability to impose their wild ideas on others.

Tell me Gorgo, how is a child, silently blessing his food, imposing his wild ideas on anyone?

I hear from the other side constantly about how there is no God. To me that is a wild idea, and you have the right to say it all that you want. You are, however, completely unable to impose it on me and I have no right to demand that you not make such utterances.

Are you suggesting that unbelievers are so weak mentally that people can actually force them to believe, or are you suggesting that they somehow have the right to not ever hear anything that they dissagree with?

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Pale RIder Tell me Gorgo, how is a child, silently blessing his food, imposing his wild ideas on anyone?

It is not, where do you get that?

Imposing your wild ideas, as in government (not church) mottos that say insane things like, "With God, All things are Possible," or "In God We Trust" or using taxpayer funds for church employees in the military or the Congress.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Pale RIder Are you suggesting that unbelievers are so weak mentally that people can actually force them to believe,

Are you telling me that religion is so weak that believers feel they need to use the force of government to impose it on others?

[Runa216]

ooh, fiery. anyways, I return to my comment, Pray to a toilet, or a baseball bat. you could call it wishful thinking, you could call it hopes and dreams. no matter what you do or what you do it to, the results will be the same. look at the real world, prayers are not answered. even if there is a god, he's not answering them, and if by fortune, luck, or whatever you call it, your prayers are answered, it would be foolish to assume it happend because you prayed for it.

I could pray for the sun to rise tomorrow morning, would I claim my prayers were answered? no, because it was going to happen anyway, my desire for it to happen did not effect the final result. had I done something about it, then my opinion would be different. hoping for it to happen does not change anything, actions can. What if I prayed for the sun not to rise tomorrow? we all know that's not happening...you wanna know why? because that's not how the world works, and there's no way I could make it happen.

Any majour disaster...you watch, the survivors would say their prayers were answered...what about all the victims? who says the survivors were favoured by an entity?

I know, I'm droning, but seriously, to assume prayers are answered is foolish and naive....sure, ignorance is bliss and hope makes happiness, but that doesn't change anything. I used to pray, but then I reached puberty and began to see how the world really worked.

Runa

[Sonart]

Quote by: Pale RIder Consistent in certain, specific circles...ie. cut and paste.

So? Look up Al Gore's infamous quote regarding the Internet and you'll find nothing but links to "certain, specific circles". That doesn't mean that the quote was wrong, it simply means that only "certain, specific circles" had an interest in pointing it out.

Quote by: Pale RIder Of course, I haven't found a denial that the moon is made of cheese in a credible news source either.

LOL!!! Here , here's a denial from NASA that the moon is made of green cheese.

Quote by: Pale RIder And again, even if it is true, one man's opinion discriminates against you....how?

If that man is the President of the United States, it discriminates against me significantly, by informing my fellow citizens that I should not to be considered a 1st class citizen.

Quote by: Pale RIder Again...how is the power of government brought to bear against you?

Discrimination seldom comes from the power of government, but from the people around us. And when the government pursues policies based on the idea that we are "A Christian Nation", they are informing the people around us that non-Christians are less than American.

Quote by: Pale RIder And this (war memorial cross) discriminates against you...how?

Let me share a story... my former wife is a 4th and 5th generation American, same as me. The difference being that while my people came from Great Britain, hers came from Japan, and she and most of her extended family remain practicing Buddhists. Her cousin Darryl is a Vietnam vet. Her mother's eldest brother Clyde is a vet, and her father's eldest brother gave the last full measure of devotion in WWII... he didn't make it home. So please explain how a Christian cross as a war memorial doesn't discriminate against them?

Quote by: Pale RIder I take it that you have never been to Arlington National Cemetary. You could really be offended there.

Why, because there are lots of individual crosses?



So? They represent individual people. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume you don't get a cross on your headstone if you're not a Christian. Which reminds me... a month or so after the beginning of the Iraq war, our paper featured a photo of a Marine being buried at Arlington, the ceremony being presided over by Buddhist priests! Apparently our San Diego memorial cross exludes him, too.

Quote by: Pale RIder (school prayer) Discriminates against you how?

Because it forces me (were I a student) to set myself apart from my classmates, and if you don't think Christian students don't harass non-believers, you're a fool.

(Boy Scouts) Discriminates against you how?

I couldn't be one, since I could be booted out for revealing that I was a non-believer.

His teacher pulled him away from the table and took him to the office where the principal told him that it was against the rules to pray in school

The teacher was dead wrong. I have no problem with anyone praying in school on their own. Just don't force others to join in.

The teacher then called the girl's mother and threatened to call child protective services.

The teacher should be fired.

We can play this all day long...

Denver --"The Air Force Academy, still recovering from rape and sexual harassment scandals, is facing charges that some Christian cadets have bullied and berated Jews and students of other religious backgrounds."--

--"The Bill of Rights of the Texas Constitution (Article I, Section 4) allows people to be excluded from holding office on religious grounds. An official may be "excluded from holding office" if she/he does not "acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being. Six other states ( MA, MD, NC, PA, SC and TN) all have similar language included in their Bill of Rights, Declaration of Rights, or in the body of their constitutions.
"--

I daresay what bothers Christians most is not that they're being discriminated against, but that their traditional worldview, in which 'good Christians' were in all ways superior and dominant in American society, are suddenly being informed that they're not... must be sorta like what Southern whites felt in the face of the civil rights movement.


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