What is Religion?

[Runa216]

When engaging in debates, the most common argument is religion. Homosexuality is wrong because God does not like it. We bombed the WTC because God told us to. the list goes on.

Often I try to denounce religion as a point because I do not believe in God. I admit this is a bad thing, but the real question is, what is religion? Who is God? Is the bible a real recount of events, or is it a documentary as authentic as a Micheal Moore movie?

I have my opinions, you have yours, I am not trying to convert anyone, but I want to see what people think. Is the bible real, does god exist, or is it just a myth used to control people or give them hope of an afterlife.

I want opinions from both sides, and I will join in the debate ASAP, I have a lot of good points and theories.

One request: don't say anything like "GOD IS REAL, YOU ARE ALL FOOLS FOR BEING NONBELIEVERS!!!!!' or 'RELIGION IS A MASS OF BS, YOU PEOPLE ARE SHEEP!!!!!' I would appreciate it if we could all get along and present reasons and explanations for our beliefs.

(Kinda surprised there wasn't a post like this already)

Runa

[MerlinsByte]

When engaging in debates, the most common argument is religion. Homosexuality is wrong because God does not like it. We bombed the WTC because God told us to. the list goes on.

Nowhere in the new testament does Jesus say that Homosexuality is wrong. The debate rages and its pretty much undecided. There are some fuzzy references that seem to infer a bias against H. S.
I also am undecided on the issue and do not think its of paramount importance in any case. BTW I am a Minster, but I don't have a pulpit just a keyboard and a small humanitarian mission.

mb

[Starboy]

Quote by: Runa216 When engaging in debates, the most common argument is religion. Homosexuality is wrong because God does not like it. We bombed the WTC because God told us to. the list goes on.

Funny thing about that. Just about all theists are atheists when it comes to the religions they will not believe in. They fully understand why these other religions are myths and the followers of those religions are deluded for whatever reason. But for some reason they are unable to apply all that fine reasoning and understanding to their own superstition.

Those theists are such a dishonest lot. If you went up to them and asked, 'Why to you deny the existence of Vishnu?' they would immediately see the dishonesty of the question and how ridiculous it was and reply, 'What Vishnu?'. But their religion has made them so stupid that they will think nothing of turning around and saying to you, 'Why do you deny the existence of god?'

And then lastly most self identified theists don't actually believe in any of their supernatural nonsense. They do not believe in the magic. If they are ill they will not rely on the mumbo jumbo but will seek out the best that modern medicine can provide. And as much as they all say that they so much want to be with god in heaven it is all a crock. For some reason when you offer to help them get there, they will not take you up on it.

Starboy

[Runa216]

Good arguments. that's one thing I always liked to look at, what is the real religion? everyone who follows a religion would state it is theirs, but obviously that is not true. I think the world has gone through too many religions to pin any one down. when's the last time you seen someone praying to zeus? nobody does anymore because it seemed silly to worship multiple gods after whatshisface came down the mountain with the ten commandments, and the first commandment was something along the lines of 'thou shalt not worship other gods before me!' I'm not sure if that's it, but that was the christian way to denounce all other religions of the world.

not to mention all the different religions based of that one. protestant, catholic, christian, you name it, they all follow the same bible, so why do they all have different versions of it?

Runa

[abub]

The purpose of religion is to establish moral values, nothing more. Religion gets in the way of everyday life only when people take religious texts literally, and have disputes over it.

[Rave7pt0]

Quote by: Starboy Funny thing about that. Just about all theists are atheists when it comes to the religions they will not believe in. They fully understand why these other religions are myths and the followers of those religions are deluded for whatever reason. But for some reason they are unable to apply all that fine reasoning and understanding to their own superstition. Those theists are such a dishonest lot. If you went up to them and asked, 'Why to you deny the existence of Vishnu?' they would immediately see the dishonesty of the question and how ridiculous it was and reply, 'What Vishnu?'. But their religion has made them so stupid that they will think nothing of turning around and saying to you, 'Why do you deny the existence of god?' And then lastly most self identified theists don't actually believe in any of their supernatural nonsense. They do not believe in the magic. If they are ill they will not rely on the mumbo jumbo but will seek out the best that modern medicine can provide. And as much as they all say that they so much want to be with god in heaven it is all a crock. For some reason when you offer to help them get there, they will not take you up on it. Starboy

Many people are in spiritual elementary school, but consider that even scientists are in elementary school at some point. They'll believe what they're told until they have the ability to figure it out for themselves. It's the same with spirituality I think, but there's a heavy de-emphasis on it in our culture, so can you really blame people for being very child-like in their beliefs?

[Starboy]

Quote by: abub The purpose of religion is to establish moral values, nothing more. Religion gets in the way of everyday life only when people take religious texts literally, and have disputes over it.

You might have a point five hundred years ago but times have changed. Church and state are no longer one. Divine rights of kings is no longer considered reasonable. Societies are no longer homogeneous. There is no place for a particular religion’s morals to have a say in civil law. The vast majority of civil institutions must be secular because of this. A single religion can no longer play an effective role as the source or morals. We also live in the scientific age. People do not actually believe in the mumbo jumbo any more no matter what they may say. Only those living a primitive life can get away with it. For the rest of us it is no longer angels, demons, ghosts, sin and souls and such, it has become electrons, gigawatts, DNA, atoms and such. Supernatural religion is an anachronism. Any religion for our time would be based on the natural, and thus would not attribute morals to some uber-being but to our human nature. It would not only teach morals but would research them scientifically. Morals would not be what a sky daddy gave us; it would be what we have learned from studying people in different situations and different cultures and using the current scientific explanations to understand what we have learned and then use that to explore further. What we will learn will be far more “magical” than any mythology could ever concoct.

Starboy

[Starboy]

Quote by: Rave7pt0 Many people are in spiritual elementary school, but consider that even scientists are in elementary school at some point. They'll believe what they're told until they have the ability to figure it out for themselves. It's the same with spirituality I think, but there's a heavy de-emphasis on it in our culture, so can you really blame people for being very child-like in their beliefs?

You seem to think that you have graduated from elementary school, at least when it comes to "spirituality". Maybe you can answer this question. What is "spirituality"?

Starboy

[Runa216]

that's one of the many things I considered religion was for. long ago, man needed a way to explain the world. he also needed one way to keep the order in his kingdom. he created god, the ultimate solution. not only did it give the world a birthday, but now he had a vengeful spirit to threaten his people with. throughout history, man has desired to rule with force and fear over rationality and intelligence, and this god was no different.

sure, the overall message was to be good so they can get into heaven, which is the good half of the bible, unfortunately, if you don't conform to the laws set in the bible, then you go to a place of eternal torture. a little severe, but it supposedly worked.

the one loophole the people in power got to manipulate and use the bible for their own wicked means. they began to kill, claiming it was right to end those who did not believe. they got power hungry, and that's where the problem starts.

after that, there were the seperation of the many religions, all deciding to live according to what parts they liked. this is hypocrisy.

as for science, religion had been the source of creationsim and all explanations. as time went on, there were newer and better explanations. the creationism theory of zeus and Ra were replaced by the christian god, Adam, and Eve. old theories are scrapped for newer and better theories. these people were sure of their reasoning, but they were wrong. same with modern science, we think we know it all, but as time goes on, we are shown to be wrong.

this is why I consider Science the new religion. I'll follow it until I get a better explanation.

Runa

[Starboy]

Quote by: Runa216 as for science, religion had been the source of creationsim and all explanations. as time went on, there were newer and better explanations. the creationism theory of zeus and Ra were replaced by the christian god, Adam, and Eve. old theories are scrapped for newer and better theories. these people were sure of their reasoning, but they were wrong. same with modern science, we think we know it all, but as time goes on, we are shown to be wrong. this is why I consider Science the new religion. I'll follow it until I get a better explanation. Runa

Seems so rampant these days. People will make a god out of anything, even science. If you must then so be it, but if you are determined to make a religion out of science then I must insist that you practice the most important value of science. Do you know what that is? It is honesty. What ever you do at least try not to fool yourself, try not to fool others and try not be fooled by others. Like any value it represents an ideal state. Do your best and if you have some modicum of success then the rest will fall into place. May you rejoice in your explorations, have the insight to find explanations for your discoveries and the honesty to be open to new discoveries and better explanations. In the name of Feynman I consecrate your scientific quest. May Einstein be in all your thought experiments.

Starboy

[Runa216]

it was a figure of speech. I follow no god, let's reverse the order, Religion is the old science. there, the meaning is changed. all I was trying to say is that we as a race stive for better explanations. once, long ago, we took the words of god as indefinite. now we actually explore and find things for ourselves. it's a new way to gain knowledge.

Runa

[Starboy]

Quote by: Runa216 it was a figure of speech. I follow no god, let's reverse the order, Religion is the old science. there, the meaning is changed. all I was trying to say is that we as a race stive for better explanations. once, long ago, we took the words of god as indefinite. now we actually explore and find things for ourselves. it's a new way to gain knowledge. Runa

I think you give religion too much credit. It was never honest. It never cared if there was any "truth" to any of its claims. It has always been about controlling people. Just like the other Italian godfather, it was about the offer you can't refuse.

Starboy

[Dadoo]

If the religionists would take their texts literally, we would all be better off. Instead we see words twisted to suit the current debate or issue. This is not a generalized malady; more an anomaly. We may see how the few zealots can taint the image of entire subcultures.
Literally taken, most sacred and contemporary religious tomes point toward peaceful resolutions, good treatment of our neighbors, and temperance of vices. Parables are dangerous, as taken out of historical and spiritual context they can misguide masses.
Science and religion ultimately attempt explanation of the same phenomena.
If a 'scientific' discovery were to change dogma or translation by a popular religious institution ( e.g. the world is round!), the religious would see religious repercussion, the scientist, empirical. Each will see the data through educated or acculturated perception, affecting the nuance of technological application and the limits placed upon such discoveries by the magico-religious flavor du jour.

In the end, it is all profit, by any means and by any name.
Much luck upon your journey.
Dadoo

[Runa216]

Starboy, trust me, I give religion no credit, but I hate to bring up the religious zealots who begin to preach. I was trying to be honest and fair, that's how I always try to be, I have opinions but I never let them get in the way of a good debate.

Runa

[jeffl]

Quote by: Starboy I think you give religion too much credit. It was never honest. It never cared if there was any "truth" to any of its claims. It has always been about controlling people. Just like the other Italian godfather, it was about the offer you can't refuse. Starboy

You're not talking about religion, you're talking about power tripping assholes who, with their twist on the dogma of the day, bash the less able.

Religion has always been about an iterative approach to the truth.

[Starboy]

Quote by: jeffl You're not talking about religion, you're talking about power tripping assholes who, with their twist on the dogma of the day, bash the less able. Religion has always been about an iterative approach to the truth.

Please name one religion that has taken anything even close to an iterative approach to the "truth". Without dogma there is no religion. Nobody shows up in a church and says, "We think that maybe god said this." or "Maybe there is an afterlife." or "Maybe you will be held accountable for your life when you die." or "Maybe Jesus said this." There is no religion that rewrites their holy book or tosses entire parts of it. There is no religion where the pastor shows up and says to everyone, "I found this better religion, forget everything I have taught you." If this happens the religion dies. One of the things that people look for in a religion is certainty. As soon as everything is up for grabs then people grab their hats and coats and leave.

You appear to me to be like so many people that I have met. They are attracted to the idea of religion but they do not actually like religion. They are a very muddle headed lot.

Starboy

[MerlinsByte]

By the truly muddled.....They are a very muddle headed lot.

Merlin writes...Star boy you and your closed minded ilk is a testament to denial. You wouldn’t know truth if it bitch slapped you in the face.

You wouldn’t acknowledge a deity if it stuck a lighting bolt in you and tattooed the ten commandants on your forhead with its 100X100 Gig laser eyes.

So why the expend the energy to show you truth? As I said the science that you worship is as riddled with untruths and lies as any myth is. Deal with it.

However if you wish to know anything about true religion
Seek it instead of grouping all religious people into one ignorant ideal of yours.

Hey I don’t clump all scientists and science into one homogeneous category. There is good science and then there are rabid fools who must be put down, not by death but by truth.


mb

[MerlinsByte]

Runa writes...'thou shalt not worship other gods before me!' I'm not sure if that's it, but that was the Christian way to denounce all other religions of the world.

Merlin writes. Runa my take on that passage of the King James translation of the book of texts, the bible, is somewhat different. 'Thou shalt not worship other gods before me!' means; Recognize that there is only one creator of the universe. All other gods are lesser than I."

Any serious student of religion should learn its language(s) or use any number of online resources to compare the original texts with the modern version.

Mb

by starboy

merlin writes.... Oh well nothing there


Ps …And to star boy; I also practice ritual majack and read taro cards pray use sacrament, do spells and am as you know a serious amateur astrometry, avid cosmologist, and belong to the astronomy club at the university here, among other disciplines.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: MerlinsByte And to star boy; I also practice ritual majack and read taro cards pray use sacrament, do spells and am.....

I don't see why it is considered impolite to note that these things are based on irrational ideas.

Tarot cards are nonsense, casting spells and ritual magic's only redeeming quality is that it serves as a focal point for goal-setting. No one is telling you you can't pursue these things if you think they're fun, but don't tell me I'm closed-minded. It is you that have closed out reality because you've found yourself wanting.

Some people think that that's some kind of insult. But of course, it isn't. I'm not telling you that you're worthless, I'm telling you that you don't need to think you're worthless anymore.

[jeffl]

Quote by: Starboy They are attracted to the idea of religion but they do not actually like religion.

You keep thinking 'religion' means what you say it means. I want 'religion' to mean what it used to mean, because it makes sense; and i see it in the mahabharat as 'truth' which is consistent with what it should mean and what i will take it to mean. Use your words to whatever ends you like.