Tossing the "Yoke" of religion

[Mr.Vicchio]

I had an interesting conversation today with an Athiest, he made the statement:

"Or, perhaps, we live in an age where it's finally become socially acceptable to cast off the yoke of religion."

I found this to be a very interesting comment. Insightful really into the thinking of Athiest in general.

I believe in tossing the "Yoke" of religion, I myself have done this, but then my view is far different then his. I tossed the yoke by abandoning the Catholic Church in favor of local, non-demoninational church settings. Small, local, focused not on empowering the church, following man made ceremonies and honor for the Church, but rather a place to Worship God, to let Jesus into my heart, and to love my fellow man.

Organized, large Churches ARE the yoke, and I fully support casting that aside for the true nature of religion. A spiritual connection to God and love for Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.


I find the belief he has, that being an athiest is tossing the yoke of religion, I don't see it that way. I see it as rebeling against God, without just cause. One can be free of the yoke as it were, and still be a believer, and a devout follower of Jesus.

And never feel the Yoke of Religion.

[Rave7pt0]

Yeah, I think "true" believers feel empowered by their spirituality, not yoked. That's not a surprising atheist sentiment though.

[Gorgo]

I don't think I would have used the word "yoke," but there is a lightness when one gives up the need for fantasy. There can be no empowerment in a fear of reality.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: Gorgo I don't think I would have used the word "yoke," but there is a lightness when one gives up the need for fantasy. There can be no empowerment in a fear of reality.

The fantasy is believing that we are mearly random atoms that happened join together to spawn life on an amazingly habitable world. And not only that, but said life became intelligent life.


Fantasy is believing that all of this, the earth, the trees, the water, everything, is just one big cosmic coincidence.

That for me, is the bigger leap of faith.

[Rave7pt0]

You aren't trying to bait us poor, ignorant believers, are you Gorgo?

So, should I argue the point, or are you just stirring the pot?

[inducedaphonia]

I suppose the real question here is whether or not a follower can be free

my first reaction was to say that noone who follows can be free, however upon further contemplation i find that if one who follows always agrees with the leader then he is still free so long as he makes independent decisions along the way and as soon as he does not agree with the leader he ceases to follow. Therefore it is my conclusion that there is no "yoke" to religion so long as followers do not do so blindly.

This is applicable because you are "following" jesus.

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: Mr V Fantasy is believing that all of this, the earth, the trees, the water, everything, is just one big cosmic coincidence.

Considering that the universe has been argued to be infinite, it is not a coincidence, it was bound to happen. Infinite possibilities.

Another thing you would find impossible is that if you make Pye long enough then you will find an encoded version of every Mozart symphony ever written or could have been written. then you have the old joke, of an infinate number of monkies typing on an infinate number of type writters will eventually write the complete works of Shakespear given long enough.

An infinite universe is a wonderful concept. It is also a very hard one to get your head round, because short of mathematical figures and concepts such as Pye, nothing else we have discovered and understand is infinate.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Chris, ever considered that using that same logic, there was Bound to be a God controlling it?

After all.. infinite universe... Supreme being is jsut a natural part fo such.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Rave7pt0 You aren't trying to bait us poor, ignorant believers, are you Gorgo? So, should I argue the point, or are you just stirring the pot?

I don't know what any of that means. I am telling you my experience. I am telling you my observations. Does that mean that you think that people who disagree with you are ignorant?

Again, there is no reasonable evidence that Jehovah, the tribal war god, created the world.

I have observed and asked questions and come to tentative conclusions on the matter. People tell me things, in one way or another like, "I don't want to believe this is all there is." Meaning, their life is not enough as it is (worth). "I don't want to believe in a random (therefore worthless) universe." "Believing in god gives my life meaning (worth).

In other words, they don't think much of themselves, so they create a fantasy world (we all do it to some extent) in which they get their worth from something else. They get it from being in a special club headed to heaven or something more mundane like calling people "morons" to make themselves feel better about themselves.

Again, we all do it to some degree, religion is just another variation of it.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in god. It does not require one to believe in something else. It does not require anything but a lack of belief in god(s).

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Chris, ever considered that using that same logic, there was Bound to be a God controlling it? After all.. infinite universe... Supreme being is jsut a natural part fo such.

How could there be, in an infinate universe a higher power controlling that universe? There is nothing to control, everything happens, irregardless. There is nothing to control, your logic is flawed I am afraid.

It also suggests that this god, would have to live out side this universe.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Chris the Chees this god, would have to live out side this universe.

This is the point I find most cogent. That the Space/Time Continuum is a CONSTRUCT, a mere nth artifact within the mind of an infinite Being. God created the S/T C, and exists entirely independent of it, though He imbues it totally, heehee. The S/T C may come to a conclusion (though I have no empirical evidence) but He exists eternally.

[Chris the Chees]

Or circumstancial evidence either. The theory I have been expounding lacks it as well, however mine is in essance the chaos theory, which apparently is backed up (quite how I am not sure :p) by computer art. :confused: Well thats what my flat mate who does physics tells me, of course it all goes well over my head, so I will simply jump on the band waggon and nod seriously, while wondering what I'm missing on the radio.

My theory also doesn't need the control of a god.

I love "what if's" debates. A lot of it would be great material for a science fiction novel.

However, I think we stray off topic a little.

As for organised religion, it has done nothing but cause misery in the past. I think groups like the Quakers are far more to my liking than say puritans. But thats just me.

[PatrickHenry]

Quakers are organized enough to make a name for themselves...

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Quakers are organized enough to make a name for themselves...

True, however, they haven't got a history of burning people, etc. That in my book puts them rather above quite a few denominations.

[PatrickHenry]

Quite a few others never burned anyone, too. In fact quite a few others have BEEN burned. What keeps 'em going?


:Sorry pressed edit instead of quote, CTC:

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Quite a few others never burned anyone, too. In fact quite a few others have BEEN burned. What keeps 'em going? :Sorry pressed edit instead of quote, CTC:

Quite a few others never burned anyone, too

Good for them.

In fact quite a few others have BEEN burned

Yep, religioun has always been a dangerous buisness. Ask an armless child in Iraq, injured for GWB's love of oil and fear of the heathen.

[MerlinsByte]

How could there be, in an infinite universe a higher power controlling that universe? There is nothing to control, everything happens, irregardless. There is nothing to control, your logic is flawed I am afraid. It also suggests that this god, would have to live out side this universe.

Merlin sez…first, to begin with, you assume that the universe is infinite. that may or not be the case. There may be nothing to control because the universe was designed to run on its own, by natural physical law, after the ID created space time. Secondly, it is your lack of logic that is at fault here , with all due respect.

Oh yes, the ID or intelligent designer does indeed permeate the universe as well as the unknowable non physical law universe.

mb

[CJFreeman]

Quote by: Chris the Chees True, however, they haven't got a history of burning people, etc. That in my book puts them rather above quite a few denominations.

Stalin -- promoter of the most nefarious and subtle mass-murder scheme in all of history. 26,000,000 estimated to have been executed under his reign. Atheist.

From the above, it seems that there is a 1:1 correspondence between those who believe and those who don't when it comes to doing bad things. Conclusion: the religious and the non-religious alike are culpable for bad things. Corollary 1: atheism is not the charter for goodness. Corollary 2: theism is not the charter for goodness. Corollary 3: people are not the charter for goodness. Corollary 4: something that is not people, religion, or non-religion must be the charter for goodness.

Question: what is the charter for goodness? Please give support for your answer.

Christopher J. Freeman

[Gorgo]

Quote by: CJFreeman Question: what is the charter for goodness? Please give support for your answer.

Sean?

[CJFreeman]

Quote by: Chris the Chees Quite a few others never burned anyone, too Good for them. In fact quite a few others have BEEN burned Yep, religioun has always been a dangerous buisness. Ask an armless child in Iraq, injured for GWB's love of oil and fear of the heathen.

Whether religious or not, living has always been a dangerous business. George W. Bush has not made living easier, granted; he has also burdened Christianity with yet another moronic heralding of God's name. Classical Christianity calls this blasphemy, which is to claim the LORD's providence as the backbone for human atrocities.

As a conservative Christian, I don't accept Bush's war. Nevertheless, I also see him as a politician, and politicians make bad decisions it seems, almost on principle. History is composed of imperialist motives, so war and suffering shouldn't surprise you. The people who initiate that suffering are decried while they do it, but are often labelled heroes when the general public reaps the benefits the suffering brings. So saying, Bush's campaign is simply feeding the interminable greed of human selfishness, and nationalist pride. He's just doing it from a different platform -- the presidential seat.

This is nothing new. Look into history and mark the decadent, horrific sweep of the Muslim religion throughout all of Eastern Europe and North Africa ca. 680 - 800 AD. Who defended against them? Was defending against them wrong because it necessitated violence? Is Bush precipitating a similar situation, but a little prematurely? Would this have happened anyway?

Christopher J. Freeman