fed up.

[MerlinsByte]

By Gorgo....Nothing comes from Nothing except somehow a Creator. The only reason you think there is a need for god is because humans are taught not to think much of themselves, so they feel a need to create such things to attempt to fill a void. There is no other need.

__________________


merlin sez....... I think that humans are the most important creation with the exception of the creator ID, or the Hebrew God.

We are above the angles, demons and spirits. We are the only created beings with souls. We are to be God like and that is our destiny.

And in my world view, the universe could not exist without sentient observers. That would be us. No, I feel that we are so important that we can destroy our universe. So I reject your augment out of hand.

Man has a designed in need and has had this need for over 100,000 years. God is speaking to us and its message not hard to understand. If it (GOD and religion) was a passing fad or an intellectual deficiency we would have learned to conqueror this need by now. How much more time do we need 100, 000 years is a long time. Hint: we will always be of God and therefore it will never leave us.

Religious faith is stronger now, with all our science and knowledge than any time in history. So this God desire is growing not being evolved out of as you proposition. Religion will merge with science if we are allowed to live on this planet long enough to accept truth, the other option is death.

mb

[IndieC]

Quote by: Gorgo Another symptom of a need to feel better than others in order to gain or hold onto self-worth.

Whoever said i needed to feel better than you? I just think that it is a shame that you are so blind to the truth i see. As for self-worth, i knew i was worth something well before i started believing, and i don't need to feel better than anyone to know that i am worth something.Considering that, by the way, maybe you should see how much Christians do for the good of people, and how much they go below you to be able to help you. Maybe you would understand what it is to be good then, what it is to truly help others. Until you have lowered yourself to those levels, you don't know, and even then, it is sceptical as to whether you know or not.

[IndieC]

Quote by: MerlinsByte __________________ merlin sez....... I think that humans are the most important creation with the exception of the creator ID, or the Hebrew God. We are above the angles, demons and spirits. We are the only created beings with souls. We are to be God like and that is our destiny. And in my world view, the universe could not exist without sentient observers. That would be us. No, I feel that we are so important that we can destroy our universe. So I reject your augment out of hand. Man has a designed in need and has had this need for over 100,000 years. God is speaking to us and its message not hard to understand. If it (GOD and religion) was a passing fad or an intellectual deficiency we would have learned to conqueror this need by now. How much more time do we need 100, 000 years is a long time. Hint: we will always be of God and therefore it will never leave us. Religious faith is stronger now, with all our science and knowledge than any time in history. So this God desire is growing not being evolved out of as you proposition. Religion will merge with science if we are allowed to live on this planet long enough to accept truth, the other option is death. mb

Uhh... yeah, i agree with the last point, about religion and science, but i don't understand why the hebrew god, which is the same as the christian god for that matter, is the most important creation... He is the creator from what the bible and the hebrew text says...

[Gorgo]

Quote by: IndieC Considering that, by the way, maybe you should see how much Christians do for the good of people,

People do for the good of people. People do for the good of people. Not just Christians. People of all religions and lack of religions.

In spite of all their faults and because of some of their faults, we all help each other because we'd like someone to help us when we need it.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: IndieC Whoever said i needed to feel better than you?

You did. You said that you pitied me. Your emotions are generated by your beliefs about yourself. You need to feel above others.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: MerlinsByte ....... I think that humans are the most important creation with the exception of the creator ID, or the Hebrew God.

That's what I said. You create a god so that you can feel important. But it is a temporary fix because it's based on the belief that you're not very much to begin with.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: MerlinsByte Man has a designed in need and has had this need for over 100,000 years.

That's what I just said. You believe that you have a need, so you create a god to fill that imaginary need. The rest of what you are saying in this post seems to say that people have smoked tobacco for many years so they can't be wrong. People have had religions for many years so they can't be wrong. That's a fallacy. People believed all sorts of things before and after Christianity, with and without gods.

[Downwiththestereotype]

I agree wholheartedley with your point. But it dosent make religious persicution fun, which was my intial poitn, and one you have failed to adress.

[Sonart]

Quote by: Merlins Byte I suspect that man has a built in, dare I say designed need for God. Why haven't we evolved out of this need in the last oh...100,000 years if there isn't something to this?

Very good... I believe this too. I suspect the difference being that I believe this hard wiring came from evolution, not from a supernatural source.

Quote by: Merlins Byte Yes, by genetic degeneration, arrogance, and the spiritual war, we are putting distance between we humans and God.

Beyond conceding that spiritual war has plagued mankind for as long as religion has existed, perhaps the distance comes from having more knowledge of the world around us and therefore a bit less fear of the unknown.

Quote by: Indie Considering that, by the way, maybe you should see how much Christians do for the good of people,

Methinks Gorgo has it right, Indie. Just a tad arrogant, don't you think, to believe that Christians have cornered the market on doing good.

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[MerlinsByte]

iNDIEUhh... yeah, i agree with the last point, about religion and science, but i don't understand why the hebrew god, which is the same as the christian god for that matter, is the most important creation... He is the creator from what the bible and the hebrew text says...

Indie the hebrew god or the god of the Koran or the oneness that a monk seeks is all the same god.

mb

[MerlinsByte]

by sonart…Very good... I believe this too. I suspect the difference being that I believe this hard wiring came from evolution, not from a supernatural source.

Why do you think that a hardwired need for a god came from evolution or adaptation? What are the beneficial aspects of this natural god belief?

Would you believe all sentient beings innately believe in god? I will give you this. I feel that we all have a need or a desire to continue on past the last bio chemical jump across synapses (death of the flesh). If I were an atheist I would argue that this alone and the hope that loved ones continued beyond, would be reason enough to keep this ingrained belief.

mb



All science is supernatural if given a sufficiently arbitrary time frame…mb

[Cephus]

Quote by: Downwiththestereotype Im fed up of all this bickering, atheists and christians bickering over slight details and qord play to prove and disprove god. all this winging about creationsim and evolution, and people saying science is for fools (such as the science behind physics? Id like to see you say science is foolish when I use the laws of physics to hurl a brick at your head.)

To be perfectly honest, most atheists would never bother bickering with theists if the theists would just LEAVE THEM ALONE! Most of the problems come in when theists insist on forcing their beliefs on people who have no interest or need for them.

Heck, I'd be more than happy never to talk about religion again as long as I live if the whiny Christians would just shut the hell up.

[Runa216]

me too Cephus, me too. Unfortunately, that's not happening, so we all need to find a way to make everyone happy, and move on, the religious types will never go away, and they will always see us atheists as inferior nonbelievers, and even though the religious types aren't all bad, enough of them are to screw up the world.

I say, sit back and watch the fireworks, the bickering will never end.

Runa

[Cephus]

Quote by: Downwiththestereotype I agree wholheartedley with your point. But it dosent make religious persicution fun, which was my intial poitn, and one you have failed to adress.

Trust me, doesn't make religion's persecution of the non-religious fun either.

[Sonart]

Quote by: Merlins Byte Why do you think that a hardwired need for a god came from evolution or adaptation? What are the beneficial aspects of this natural god belief?

I've been through this in depth on other threads but that may have been a while back.

I think it's fair to say that homo sapiens are now the most successful top predator on earth. Yet to merely look at us it would seem to defy common sense. We're dramatically weaker and slower than most of the predator and prey species we encounter, with few, if any, natural physical weapons. Instead, evolution has endowed us with superior intelligence and, beyond that, imagination, inventiveness, aggressiveness, competitiveness, acquisitiveness, etc, not to mention manual dexterity. We have also evolved as highly social animals; we survive in nature by working in harmony and cooperation with our group, our tribe, even against encroachment from other tribes. Social cooperation is not an uncommon instinct in nature.

Yet the very power of these mental endowments can also conflict with the cooperative harmony necessary for survival. Our intelligence, imagination and inventiveness can lead us to question the leadership of the group, our competitive and acquisitive natures can lead to conflict and disharmony. We need some sort of mental governor on our intellects in order to maintain social harmony, a means to access those instincts -- the 'Better Angels of our Nature' or our conscience -- that foster better social cooperation.

And since our intellects lead us to question what we can deal with directly -- authority and knowledge of the world -- we need an unassailable authority to define our social conduct and behavior. Voilá, the religion gene. A means to access, through ritual, a sense of oneness with the universe, of the presence, if you will, of God, and through that, our oneness with each other. Combine a heightened ability to access this state with an inate aptitude for leadership and you get priests, whose role is to pass on to the masses what they understand is the way we should conduct ourselves for maximum group harmony.

So, why don't I seem to have this gene? Is there an evolutionary purpose or am I a mistake? As it turns out, something occurred to me this very morning, and you're not going to like it one bit.

Intelligence.

A while back I was struck by a website I encountered while researching for one of the various evolution thread discussions. It was a series of polls which seemed to show that scientists as a group were considerably - considerably - less inclined to believe in God than the population as a whole. Well, I'm no scientist. I've often described myself - tongue firmly in cheek - as an artist/surfer/philosopher. But in thinking back I recalled all those various aptitude tests we took in grade school through high school which, along with constantly placing me in the top 99 percentile, constantly listed my aptitude as "Academic". Essentially, one who studies for a living.

Which got me thinking. Isn't there an evolutionary survival advantage to having a small portion of the population whose purpose is to question and study the world, to advance our knowledge, unencumbered by the traditions of religios dogma? To me, the answer seems to be yes.

Does this mean that I think highly intelligent people can't believe in God? Of course not. If I believe that diversity within any given species is the engine that drives evolution, then I have to believe that the human race is rich with diverse aptitudes and abilities. Most of our leaders are highly intelligent people, and devoutly religious. Bill Clinton being my personal favorite example. But among highly intelligent people whose aptitude seems to focus on pure inquisitiveness, then yes, data seems to show a distinct lack of devotion to faith.

Quote by: Merlins Byte Would you believe all sentient beings innately believe in god?

Obviously no. I am not an agnostic, I am a devout atheist. There is not a shred of doubt to me that deities do not exist, and that comes from searching for one in my youth. But that may be from lacking all or part of that which most humans seem to possess; an inherent ability to believe.

Quote by: Merlins Byte I feel that we all have a need or a desire to continue on past the last bio chemical jump across synapses (death of the flesh).

I believe we do, just not in the way others might. I believe I continue on through my genes, my children, as well as by passing on what I know to those that follow, and by whatever contribution I make to the success of the group. I'm content with that.

Quote by: Cephus To be perfectly honest, most atheists would never bother bickering with theists if the theists would just LEAVE THEM ALONE!

Bingo! Treat me as you would have me treat you and we're just fine. Condemn me simply for what I am, and I fight back.


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[MerlinsByte]

By ChepHus Heck, I'd be more than happy never to talk about religion again as long as I live if the whiny Christians would just shut the hell up.

Then what are you doing in the Religion and P forum discussing religious ideals ... huh...?

It sorta makes me think that you are the one that is instigating. Oh, I get it you were forced by your mommy to be here, well stick around you might learn something.

I don't post in the science and tech forum and then whine that the bad old tech nuts wont leave me alone. Please do some introspection and then post in a forum of your choice.


mb

[Cephus]

Quote by: MerlinsByte Then what are you doing in the Religion and P forum discussing religious ideals ... huh...?

It isn't a matter of debating online, it's a matter of Christians trying to force their theological views on me in the real world. But I'm sure you knew that.

[MerlinsByte]

It isn't a matter of debating online, it's a matter of Christians trying to force their theological views on me in the real world. But I'm sure you knew that.

No, I didn't and apologize for the mistake. Here in the bible belt one would think I (as an open theist Christian) would be as happy as a pig in a slop bucket.

No, I usually get it from both sides, the traditional Christian fire and brimstone Christians pastors are convinced that I am going to hell, and the atheists (what few there are here) think that I am a virgin sacrificing, idol worshiping pagan!

That's the reason I started my own church (actually a paper tiger church for the IRS) and a humanitarian mission late last year. Oh well, at least as pastor and a minister of my own church I have a bully pulpit, and I invite anyone that disagrees with me come and attend services (that is when I have them)

I consider forums part of my ministry. I plant seeds of faith. These seeds are the most effective method of evangelistic ministry, save for serving the needy both spiritually and their belly.

I am striving to do both with my modest means. And what are the seeds? I've Learned that if someone tells me a truth (a seed) even if i I don't agree with it when I hear it, this seed will grow in me and the truth will eventually sprout and bloom.

It goes directly in the subconscious and grows there. The lies die there.
So I plant seeds in others so they can maybe one day experience the love of Jesus. I know it sounds scary, something like that Science fiction drivel, attack of the pod people or something, but it is really something beautiful.
Gotta go its planting season....



....A religious truth need only be whispered............mb

Gods speed to you in all you endeavor Cephus