Satan's greatest accomplishment

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Sonart Can you prove they do not exist?

I can't prove there are 40,000 invisible dolphins singing tunes from My Fair Lady on top of your head, either. People make things up. That is a fact. People made lots of gods up. That is a fact. There is no reason to think these are not just more of the same. You have proof they exist? Bring it. Otherwise, I'll assume that the laws of physics still apply.

Quote by: Sonart Think of it as a placebo effect

I do. I also think of it as the nocebo effect. I also say that their negative view of reality affects the rest of us.

As far as prayer:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ics/faith.html

[Gorgo]

And that's what this thread is all about.

Quote by: Sonart Quote: If they cannot be better than you, then of what benefit is there in belonging to their special club? That's probably about right.

[Vee]

I'm sure someone here that is new age can explain the etymological origins of Lugh from Lughnasad to Light to Evening Star to Hermes/Mercury to Messenger to Lucifer

I may have got a bit muddled along the way and u may need to use science in context of the time or what was perceived to be what during a set age

[Gorgo]

And is the placebo effect all that it's purported to be?

[Sonart]

Quote by: Gorgo I can't prove there are 40,000 invisible dolphins singing tunes from My Fair Lady on top of your head, either. People make things up.

Well, they do and they don't. Don't get me wrong. I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God and have never understood why it was any different than believing in Wodan, Vishnu or the Great Otter Spirit. But I don't think that people who believe are making things up -- they truly believe, albeit with the guidance of religious leaders who help them 'define' what it is their hearts are already telling them.

What I think religion is doing is reminding people of the better instincts that evolution has already provided them. It's like I alluded to in a previous post. I've believe that human beings are hardwired by evolution for religious belief, a survival instinct to aid in social cohesion, to put a rein on other instincts -- ambition, aggression, lust, etc. -- that are helpful to humans but only if controlled. In fact in recent years there's been a variety of research that supports this. I recall from a TIME article several years ago that there are parts of the brain where, when shut off, we lose our sense of place in the world and "become one with the universe"... or as some would interpret, "experience God." This state was most easily studied in epileptics, but I suspect this state can also be experienced through deep meditation or devout prayer - same thing. I think this may be why music and chanting have always accompanied religious worship, because it's a means to acheive a transcendental state. But I understand that it can also just occur randomly. I'm reminded of a friend at work who, when we got on the subject of religion, explained that he'd been fairly indifferent to religious belief until one evening, as he was walking alone, lost in his thoughts, "Zap!', he was overcome with "a sense of oneness with the universe, the presence of God". I immediately thought of the TIME article but kept it to myself, seeing no reason to rain on his parade. After all, he wasn't trying to evangelize me, just relating an obviously powerful and meaningful experience.

Maybe I've mellowed with age. For years I harbored a fantasy that the next time some Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door, I'd cheerfully invite them in and then spend the next hour confounding them with atheist logic. Yet when that day finally came, looking into the faces of those 3 gentle women, I found myself smiling and saying, "Thank you for your concern, but I'm happy with my own beliefs, thank you. But have a nice day, and good luck on your mission." They left with a smile, probably relieved to have been treated with some respect and not had another door slammed in their faces. Had they persisted or tried to do a sales job, well, who knows what I would have said. Heaven knows I've carried out that fantasy conversation with others who've tried to arrogantly push their faith on me.

And this is where religious belief becomes a problem, when it incorporates tribal instincts, pitting 'us' against 'them' for no other reason than 'they' are different and therefore automatically presumed to be some sort of threat to the tribe (or more likely, presumed to be a threat to the powerbase of the tribe). And when two tribes automatically each assume the other is a threat, then they actually become threats -- as we witness in the various religious based conflicts of today.

Quote by: Gorgo I do. I also think of it as the nocebo effect.

I think of the "nocebo effect" in cases such as parents who deny their children medical attention because they believe prayer alone with cure them, where their beliefs override common sense and good judgement. I think most believers understand deep down that "God helps those who help themselves", that belief can provide courage, comfort and guidance, but doesn't solve anything by itself.

Quote by: Gorgo And is the placebo effect all that it's purported to be?

I'm sure you can find anything on the net to support any position. With everything that I've read, I'm now fairly convinced that we do have a certain "power to cure ourselves", by which I mean that I believe that positive thinking, confidence, etc. can have positive affects in resisting illness. If religion helps someone achieve a positive attitude, then good for them.

Quote by: Gorgo If they cannot be better than you, then of what benefit is there in belonging to their special club? And that's what this thread is all about.

To the extent of suggesting that "evil is the result of non-belief", then yes, this is true. I have no problem with anyone believing what they believe, as long as it doesn't harm anyone. If I'd argued with my friend that it wasn't God he was experiencing but simply his brain playing tricks, or had playfully outwitted those Jehovah's Witnesses, wouldn't that make me no better than what you claim about the religious? Making myself feel superior at their expense, when they meant no harm?

I'd just prefer that they stop having a problem with what I believe. And kindly stop believing things that are harming others who are themselves harming no one.... specifically the cruel stance of certain religions against gays.


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[Gorgo]

Yes, feeling superior to anyone is the same problem. That is not what I'm suggesting at all.

Quote by: Sonart Making myself feel superior at their expense, when they meant no harm?

[Gorgo]

It is all a "nocebo effect" as religion is a denial of reality, and an affirmation of a lack of self-worth. Talk to anyone who believes and they'll tell you of an afterlife that "there must be something else," meaning that life itself (their life) has no worth. They'll tell you that only god can give meaning (worth) to life (their life). Believing in the supernatural is not a positive thing. You may say that theists do positive things, but that's only in relative proportion to their realization that god doesn't really do anything, that if they want something done, they'll have to do it themselves.

Quote by: Sonart I think of the "nocebo effect" in cases such as parents who deny their children medical attention because they believe prayer alone with cure them

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Gorgo It is all a "nocebo effect" as religion is a denial of reality, and an affirmation of a lack of self-worth. Talk to anyone who believes and they'll tell you of an afterlife that "there must be something else," meaning that life itself (their life) has no worth. They'll tell you that only god can give meaning (worth) to life (their life). Believing in the supernatural is not a positive thing. You may say that theists do positive things, but that's only in relative proportion to their realization that god doesn't really do anything, that if they want something done, they'll have to do it themselves.

You're full of egoist crap, Gorgo. Generalizations, twisted thinking, and flat out lies. Your opinions, stated as facts, suck the big weenie. STFU.

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: PatrickHenry You're full of egoist crap, Gorgo. Generalizations, twisted thinking, and flat out lies. Your opinions, stated as facts, suck the big weenie. STFU.

And that my fellow members, is how you do not address others on here.

[Gorgo]

Isn't STFU the college that he attended?

Quote by: Pooeypants And that my fellow members, is how you do not address others on here.

[Mr.Vicchio]

I didn't think this thread would be so attacked by the Atheist and the Secularist. I expected some ridecule, after all, you guys don't believe in Satan, it's a silly myth like God right?


Or are posting because it offended you to be confronted with even the mere thought that your oh so enlightenned ways might be evil?

Anyway, I did notice the usual suspects with the usual slurs and slams not debating but attacking and rideculing, and pissing off others... so sad, this could have beena real debate on the merits of understanding evil.

[tman_ndsu08]

Evil is in the eye of the beholder.

[Gorgo]

What this thread is about is an Evil force or Evil Being, not just something that is destructive. This is a product of fearful beliefs and nothing more. A figment of a somewhat immature and fearful imagination.

[Sonart]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I didn't think this thread would be so attacked by the Atheist and the Secularist.

What are you whining about now, Mr.V. Attacked? Attacked by whom? The most strident attack I've seen on these 12 pages was directed against an atheist, by Patrick Henry. One of the first people to disagree with you did so from a Christian perspective...

Quote by: Chris the Chees The idea of Satan totally contradicts Christian logic.

Others have simply used your own logic against you.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 His greatest accomplishment was to get people to organize into different religious groups. This way, people can have a reason to hate each other that goes right to the roots of their own beliefs.

And your responses haven't been all that enlightening...

Quote by: Mr.V No, I cannot write anything that is going to make you see that there is absolute good and absolute evil in this world.

Quote by: Mr.V I didn't dismiss it, I just pointed out I cannot sway you with mere words.

Ok.... and of course the crown of you arguement seems to be that Adolph Hitler was Evil and Mother Theresa was Good, as if pointing out the most extreme examples clears it up, that absolute good and absolute Evil exist. Yet on the next page you state that "Yes, actually, it (simply not believing in God) is Evil."

That's interesting. We now know that Evil exists because of the horrible things done by Hitler, yet I, who have lived a peaceful, honest life and never harmed a soul, am the equivilant of Adolph Hitler. Then it gets really interesting...

Quote by: Mr.V The worst part is, by taking this path, not accepting there is a God and Jesus was your savior, you cannot see Satan paving the road before you.

Therefore, the Dalai Lama, who believes in neither God nor Jesus, yet who has worked for nothing but compassion and good throughout his life, honored by Popes and Presidents, is Evil. And, of course, Adolph Hitler accepted there is a God and that Jesus was our Savior, so therefore what? He's really NOT Evil? Was the Inquisition by the Christian Church Good or Evil? Is slavery, which the Bible seems to suggest is ok, Good or Evil?

This is so confusing, but I think I get the picture. "Anyone who disagrees with Mr.Vicchio is Evil". So glad you've cleared things up for us, Mr.V. Thanks for playing.


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[Mr.Vicchio]

No Sonart, you can put in bold letters that line and wish that were what I was saying, if it makes you feel better.

Go ahead.

I have a moral and spiritual view of the world, one based on a book some 2000 years old written by God. I can either believe that and stand my ground, or have no spine and accept everyones views as equal and legitimate. If that were the case why have a debate forum?

The very fact you took the Hitler/Mother Teresa analogy the way you did...

Ok.... and of course the crown of you arguement seems to be that Adolph Hitler was Evil and Mother Theresa was Good, as if pointing out the most extreme examples clears it up, that absolute good and absolute Evil exist. Yet on the next page you state that "Yes, actually, it (simply not believing in God) is Evil." That's interesting. We now know that Evil exists because of the horrible things done by Hitler, yet I, who have lived a peaceful, honest life and never harmed a soul, am the equivilant of Adolph Hitler. Then it gets really interesting...

You miss the greater point. Your "good" and the basis you define living your life good is rather selfish, it's all about you and what YOU define as good. It has no foundation. We are here for many reasons, one of them is to honor God, not ourselves. The humanist view that we are here for ourselves is in and of it's self, moraly bankrupt and spirtually evil. That's the basis of my claim.

Hitler was yes, an evil man. He was evil because he put himself, before all other considerations, and he did them for his own good.

One could make the arguement that Catholics during the middle centuries were just as evil witht he Inquisition... you won't hear me argue otherwise. One could point out all the "evil" claimed to be done in the "name of God" And I won't argue, it was evil, and was claimed to be done in the name of
God.


But that isn't what happened, and I think we all know the truth. Man by his very nature, is capable of very henious acts, those that use religion as a tool to make others do thier bidding are just as bad as a child molestor who rapes a small child and kills them. Doing God's work as God through Jesus has commaned, will never lead to evil.

When some idiot holds a sign that says "God hats Fags!" that disgusts the true believers. When an idiot blows up an abortion clinic.. the same. Disgusting.


Evil isn't defined by the claimed reason for the act, it's the act itself that is evil.

[Sonart]

Quote by: Mr.V I have a moral and spiritual view of the world, one based on a book some 2000 years old written by God.

Interesting, since a biblical scholar on another thread stated, in defense of the truth of the Bible, that it was written by 40 men and compiled over a period of 1,600 years. But that's neither here nor there.

Quote by: Mr.V You miss the greater point. Your "good" and the basis you define living your life good is rather selfish, it's all about you and what YOU define as good.

Well you defined me as Evil, comparing me to Hitler, to which I rather take exception. Who the hell are you to JUDGE me? But forget about me, I specifically asked you about the Dalai Lama, a man of devout faith, compassion and good, certainly the equal of Mother Theresa in good works, whom by your criteria is Evil because he does not believe in God or Jesus Christ, yet you quite noticeably did not respond.

So would you kindly do so now. Is the Dalai Lama Evil, yes or no?

Quote by: Mr.V Evil isn't defined by the claimed reason for the act, it's the act itself that is evil.

And what act have I committed that defines me as Evil?


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[Mr.Vicchio]

I am not judgeing you as evil, only your act of denying God, and Jesus is evil. You can still be saved.

There is a prinicple, I forget the exact phrasing, of devine ignorance? I am nto sure again off the top of my head, but someone who has had no chance to hear and believe the Word of God is not evil. (If I must I will go look it up exactly, but it answers your question)

The very act of turning your back on God is evil, you yourself are not "evil" just your actions. Guided by the Price of Evil, Satan, into believing there is no God, no Jesus.... You fullfill my Original point to a tea. Prototypical lost soul.

[Sonart]

Is the Dalai Lama Evil? Yes or no?


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[Mr.Vicchio]

I answered you're question. You just want a gotcha zinger, if I say yes you go AHA and rant, if I say no you go AHA GOTCHA and rant. If that were not the case you would not be so juvinille in demanding a yes or no answer.


I answered your question on the issue of the Dali Lama himself being evil. You answered mine on Satan's greatest achievement.

[LogicaLunatic]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I answered you're question. You just want a gotcha zinger, if I say yes you go AHA and rant, if I say no you go AHA GOTCHA and rant. If that were not the case you would not be so juvinille in demanding a yes or no answer.

Mr. Vecchio,

You've been saying all along in this thread that good & evil are not relative. That they do in fact have foundations that aren't movable. That there is a very definite line where, if you're on one side of it, you're good, if you're on the other, you're evil. Given that I think it's more than fair that you be required to answer a yes/no question with a yes or a no. If it so happens that you've logic'd yourself into a corner then accept it. Answer the question (either way you answer will be a contradiction based on previous posts) and take your lashing.

I'd rather dash my son against the rock than let your god lead me down the path to moral goodness. Er... Um...

<---- *Balks*