The Pope Has Died

[bishop]

Quote by: Chris the Chees Personally I am no fan, I'm sorry he died, and I'm sorry he died in such a manner. However, I will not respect his actions. His policy of telling Africans, in the height of the Aids epidemic too not use contraception is one of the greatest crimes in human history, on a par with that of the holacaust. This man had the position and influence to save tens of millions of lives. However instead he chose the complete oppostire route, and condemned instead of saved tens of millions. I am sorry, but this man made a terrible mistake, and millions of people have paid for his mistake with a horrific death, more over, one which could have been prevented.

aids in africa was the pope's fault??? heh, nice one.

john paul was one of the first people to speak out for the starving millions in africa - while politicians throughout the western world looked the other way. maybe westerners ignoring that issue is just as bad?

[Agent007]

Although my previous words may sound cynical and misanthropic, I am simply relaying that religion is necessary because it prevents this bad stuff from happening. The pope represented what I believe is the greatest religion in the world, and attempted to universally instill its dogma.

[bishop]

just out of interest, i've been reading peoples' comments about his death.. it seems to me that the only people who criticize him are people who aren't believers. and even amongst them, at least half of the respondents still regard him favorably. thus far, i haven't seen a single muslim response that has been remotely negative. they praise him just as much as catholics do. after all - he spoke out for them as well.

"Christians and Muslims generally we have understood each other badly. Sometimes in the past we have opposed each other and even exhausted ourselves in polemics and wars. I believe that God is calling us today to change our old habits. We have to respect each other and stimulate each other in good works upon the path indicated by God. In a world that desires unity and peace, but which experiences a thousand tensions and conflicts, believers should foster friendship and union among humanity and the people who comprise a single community on earth" (L’Osservatore Romano, August 1985).

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: bishop aids in africa was the pope's fault??? heh, nice one. john paul was one of the first people to speak out for the starving millions in africa - while politicians throughout the western world looked the other way. maybe westerners ignoring that issue is just as bad?

I think you have probably read enough of my stuff to know that I have no sympathy or tolerance for many western governments, so I don't think that card plays.

But as for the pope, I fail to see how his policy could have been in any way beneficial towards the situation, and a very strong argument, can and is, being made too suggest that he and the policies of his church were very harmful. To blame him directly for the deaths is perhaps on the harsh side, but he and his policies certainly must take an element of responcibility, direct or indirect.

[Nono]

Yeah, he shouldn't have spoken out against condoms in Uganda -- but the idea of someone in his position preaching anything other than straight monogamy is completely unrealistic. I would, you would -- but we ain't about to become pope.

As for Arinze, he sounds quite a bit like John-Paul II, actually: good on political issues (sharing wealth, reconciliation between different religions, etc.) but deeply conservative on issues of sexual morality and the place of women. (And not about to shut down Opus Dei either.)

An article in The Guardian on him from a year and a half ago quotes this description of the man: "He is a popular fellow. He makes you laugh, he doesn't stand on ceremony, he answers his own phone, and he's comfortable with women."

[orgaelin]

The problem is, Bishop, that good deeds by bad dudes are just... a little suspect.

I understand how your views arrive from your perspective, and I'm sure you can appreciate how my views are a natural corollary of my perspective. Thus it might be helpful if I clarify my perspective...

I don't see a benevolent and helpful spiritual leader who is intent on doing good for humankind in the name of God. I see the opposite. I see a history of hundreds and hundreds of popes who have done so very many wrongs to individuals and to the world. I see a church that was founded on the proved-false "Donation of Constantine", a lie. I see that the church was founded on a lie, and has always used corrupted teachings with only one specific goal in mind: power. Power is everything for the Papacy, and everything is power. When the pope does good deeds, it is not for goods sake, it is to make the church look good so that good people are drawn to the church and bring in more money and more power. Money. Power. Why else would any institution *sell* forgiveness?!

I managed to say all of that without making a single reference to the thousands of deaths caused by the Roman Catholic church over the years!

For me to respect the pope or his church, he (whoever the next 'he' is) would have to come before a world audience and lay it all on the table and then apologise. He would need to open up the Vatican archives and say "Here's all the truth we've been hiding, here's everything we ever did wrong, why we did it, and how sorry we are."

~ Org.

[orgaelin]

Quote by: Bishop i suspect that you aren't religious and don't have any respect for religion (and religious people), but i'm not like you.

And, not being like me, you are not able to make such blatent generalised assumptions, at least, not without being completely wrong!

I am not religious, but am spiritual. I have much dislike of the structure and nature of 'religion', of the idea that a single set of beliefs can be imposed on a mass group of people, of the idea of any centrally-controlled movement dictating to its subjects about what they can do, say, and even what they can believe.

I believe that spirituality is what comes when you have moved on from religion, and learned the most important first lesson of your soul - that what you believe must come from your own heart, and never, ever, ever from the pages of any book or the words of any man. Knowing the Truth begins with knowing yourself. Knowing yourself is the beginning of knowing God. Knowing the bible is just like wandering around in the dark, asleep, and with your eyes shut. It has the capacity to get you closer to God only inasmuch as it should teach you everything that God is not, i.e. vengeful, wrathful, a murderer, egotistical and self-centered, as the bible portrays him.

~ Org.

[bishop]

people always seem capable of criticizing for the sake of it.. hell, some actually demonized mother theresa..

Quote by: org For me to respect the pope or his church, he (whoever the next 'he' is) would have to come before a world audience and lay it all on the table and then apologise. He would need to open up the Vatican archives and say "Here's all the truth we've been hiding, here's everything we ever did wrong, why we did it, and how sorry we are."

umm... john paul II DID apologize.. if this isn't an apology for the church's past/historical misdeeds, i don't know what is!

http://www.jewishpublicaffairs.org/p...al_apology.htm


and the issue about condoms.. i too think that we should've allowed condoms in africa.. but you know what? americans (especially jesse helms) did more to hinder that than the pope ever could. plus, while the rest of the world has done little to nothing about the problems raging on in africa, the catholic church has been providing aid to the neediest of people for years now. feeding the starving, aiding the sick, giving the homeless here at home food and shelter.. the church does so much charity work it isn't even funny. yet people choose to snub them, diminishing the good work they do for people in need, while those people themselves never help anybody. it smells very hypocritical imo.

[MerlinsByte]

Merlin rubs aching neck and sez....I feel that we should take responsibility for own pain. God doesn't make me do anything, I know the right path to spiritual and biological health. I know the pitfalls, where the darkness and the light falls. I don't have the strength to take the gods way to health...hell no..., and therefore, I must learn the only way I can , through pain.

Rotes of pain, decades of torment, just bcause I chose my own (wrong) path. I learn the hard way just as all of you do. Its only a matter of degree. bioligicial systems when created with self awarness and a soul will demand its due of sin and therefore hurt. Life it seems, requires this unrelenting, often times subtle, spiritual and Biological discomfort. I chose that path. I've learned the some of lessons of life and the afterlife. Twas' me, I failed to take the path of love and compassion. Why must we endure pain in this life, we dont ? Why would a loving god allow this bad stuff? That is another thread (or two)

So to recap...it is I, me, not God, not Satan, or the Pope, I made me pregnant or made me abort,I gave me AIDs, I caused my addiction(s), I did thousands of etc's to myself!.. I did it! Common sense in this matter is no nonsense truth.

I might close by staying this...the entire human race is in pain, because we choose hate over love.


God(s) aren't to blame we are.

mb





When those went these went, and when those stood these stood, and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up together, and followed them: for the spirit of life was in the wheels....strange stuff there Ezechiel ...

[Nono]

Quote by: mb I feel that we should take responsibility for own pain. ...

This isn't simply a question for the individual. In some parts of Africa AIDS is bringing about the wholesale collapse of society. Kids, especially, are vulnerable, like when their parents up and die on them and granny has to till the fields.

It just isn't good enough to say yeah well you made the bed now you gotta lie in it.

[Nono]

Here's an interesting piece from the Beeb about the pracitcal ins and outs of the papal succession.