Christian

[christianaustin]

I would like to tell everyone here that I believe...

1. There is one almighty infinite God

2. God is revealed in three persons, The Father, The Savior, and The Holy Spirit

3. The Bible ,as revealed in the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, is perfect, and that the NASB, NKJV, NIV, are close to 99.99% accurate

4. All of mankind are sinners, and will all be judged by The Holy God, unless they believe in the perfect propitiation of Christ

5. Man cannot believe in Christ's perfect sacrifice without God's Grace in the regeneration of The Holy Spirit



I am very ready to debate anyone on all of my beliefs.

[G. Adams]

Don't take any of this personally, cause I know thats how being questioned on ones religion often feels, i'm only asking for debates sake.

1. How do you know there is only one god? How do you know he is all powerful?

2. Please explain to me how God is revealed in the Holy Trinity? Surely this would be like saying God is revealed in God? Which would be no revelation at all.

3. How do you know the Bible, any version of it, is perfect? It is, afterall written, by man. Moreover, it was compiled long after the death of Jesus of Nazereth, and those who compiled it probably had bery heavy pressure put on them by Rome to ensure it was all politically correct.

4. How is all of mankind sinners? What about a newborn child? What about a child before baptism? And by "judged by God" do you mean this in a negative way, as by Christians getting free passes it certainly seems so. Remember that it is written (St. Paul I think) that the laws of God are written on the hearts of Gentiles? So why should gentiles, who have followed the law of their hearts, their consciences, be treated so poorly compared to Christians who may have sinned again and again? I certainly know some who fall into this category.

5. Well this is true enough.

[iHu]

Factually I'm under the suspicion that we just don't know, but that there is self-assigned "God" stuff touching lives. Making you post the way you do, it is in you then, and strong. That seems to give you an admirable strength. Then objectively, outside the self, there's so much reaching for the invisible and yet here you post with utmost confidence, self-convincingly. I'm always fascinated with your kind, such wondrous beings. I've heard some austere religious scholars proclaim to me, as have people of all kinds, that The Bible's about as accurate as "The Canterbury Tales", but you're in luck -- all of Chaucer's stuff has been proven 99.99% accurate recountments of events that actually occurred.

(Whether it was all in the author's head or not is a whole 'nother story, isn't it?)

Applied that idea ad-infinitum, backwards and forwards in time to all tomes holy and non, material projects of man, it occurred to me one day (most likely b/c it occurred to others and they infected me with their memes somehow) that things could have gotten mixed up along the way, except for the certainty that all people want to think they're going someplace nice and special when they expire here on Earth. That's timeless.

As for my personal beliefs, I'm new to volconvo and think it better to not deliver them too heavy-handedly to the world. If you think I've done just that, long-distance apologies just hit your PC screen, give it 5 brothah....

i.


[EDIT (posted the following about 2 hours later)]:

PS: Don't get me wrong, I think the Bible is probably one of the greatest encyclopedias of morality tales and life lessons we've ever created in Humankind, so my hint of suspicion, I think it has more to do with your literally-accepted notions toward the actual material manifestations of God.

And on #4, I don't think I've quite got the perception of "perfect" down so good, and "sin" is a notion that has become plastic, heal-able and transitory to certain individuals in this and previous societies dating back to BC. You might look down on these people b/c by your doctrine they were already damned for finding an alternate route to our common end, but is a logical argument that, psychologically, they couldn't get any lower from your scorn or "pity" for them (whichever), b/c as you already would know they are "sinners." So you don't matter to them anyway. The suggested absolute of "all of mankind are sinners" suggests omnipresent sin (as if it always applies to your life in the present tense), that no one can be washed clean -- theoretically speaking, let's say my Yahweh-Allah-Buddha says he does't want me livin' like that, that I do not have to feel as though I'm a sinner 24-7, that a certain "atonement" (again, that's a very gelatinous word) is available through many means, and one of the gifts is that you are able to find these things while you are still around, inside yourself + other people (+ not just the holy trinity), etc.. Am I lost in space or you did you not get the message from the same guy? He seemed like a nice guy.
Thx...

[Lilith]

I think the New Testment was actually the part written after the death of Jesus. Or the books that compile the New Testmant were written after his death.

[G. Adams]

The NT compilement occured at the council of Nicea, i think, and occured about 400 years after his death. Many, many books that were not acceptable to church leaders under pressure from Rome were dropped out, even though they had been christian teachers for centuries.

[orgaelin]

You're not actually ready to debate with anyone here at all. To debate involves both persons of opposing views having both a desire to change the other persons mind *and* a willingness to have ones' own mind changed if the given data suggests that such is in order.

Your views are not alterable. You believe in your beliefs so strongly that they will never change, as you will always 'know' that the word of God as given to you in the bible is greater than any words that I or anyone could ever give to you.

Having said that, if you do *really* want to debate, pick a particular subject and we'll go from there. Like... why does the bible say that Jesus was made of the flesh, of the seed of David (male line descent) when his 'father' Joseph supposedly never ejaculated a drop of semen in his life before Jesus was born? Are you suggesting that either God or the Holy Ghost were descendents of the Davidic line and used their own semen on Mary? (who incidentally would have had God put in jail if he'd tried that excuse in the modern age!)

Let's get this straight before I hand over to you for your answer...

You say the bible is without errors...

The bible says Jesus was descended through his father according to the flesh of the line of David

I presume you have even a vaguest clue about how genetic descent works?

And yet you say that Jesus was the son of God, born of immaculate conception...

You see the contradiction, of course? Explain it away for me so that *I* am convinced, using *logical* *arguments* that make sense, that relate one fact to the next without interjecting opinions or discussion of what 'you know in your heart' to be true.

If you can, I have ears to hear!

~ Org.

[Sonart]

I am very ready to debate anyone on all of my beliefs.

Why would I want to do that? I'm happy for you. Just don't condemn me for what I believe.


.

[tripimollee]

Quote by: christianaustin I would like to tell everyone here that I believe... 1. There is one almighty infinite God 2. God is revealed in three persons, The Father, The Savior, and The Holy Spirit 3. The Bible ,as revealed in the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, is perfect, and that the NASB, NKJV, NIV, are close to 99.99% accurate 4. All of mankind are sinners, and will all be judged by The Holy God, unless they believe in the perfect propitiation of Christ 5. Man cannot believe in Christ's perfect sacrifice without God's Grace in the regeneration of The Holy Spirit I am very ready to debate anyone on all of my beliefs.

But you see? They are your beliefs. Beliefs are personal, they are unique and individual to you, personally. I am a Pagan. My beliefs are open for discussion, I am always eager to hear other viewpoints and learn new things, but they are not for debate...I think it might be better if you rephrase what you are trying to say, much as Orgaelin has said.

[iHu]

Since the topic starter has bailed on his "debate" for at least 24 hours, is his behavior considered a "hit-and-run" post?


[crickets]


:confused:

[orgaelin]

I think he kind of 'hit' and then realised we were all so ready for him that he was in danger of having his belief-system challenged if he didn't shift out of here quick!!

Poor chap!

[tripimollee]

Quote by: orgaelin I think he kind of 'hit' and then realised we were all so ready for him that he was in danger of having his belief-system challenged if he didn't shift out of here quick!! Poor chap!

it was a fairly brave attempt, though...lol. Either that or we are about to get walloped by a load of fundamentalism. I think I prefer the former...

[Brian]

He could have been more like, what makes me think that I can change the hearts of men, God is still changing my own heart,... The world is full of sin, I wish they would get the truth...but one day they will see the final judgement, I pray for their souls and may God have mercy on them. He was a better Christian for leaving and to not be entangled in the traps of angry wolves, so neither will I. I know that we live in an opposing world, and someday I am going to have to stand for the truth and teach of the grace for this world, but that is after I learn and become educated. So many of us want to be kings and prophets when we are only students not even yet priests, so Im sorry I could not stay and chat some more. Proverbs 31:1-9 hear the words of king Lemuel, the prophecy that his mother taught him.

[Dadoo]

The New Testament proves that Fatherhood really can lighten a guy up.
Remember all the violence and deaths God wrought in the Talmud? Wow, now it's all love and peace!
Thanks Jesus.. you really softened God up.

[Sonart]

Quote by: Christianaustin I am very ready to debate anyone on all of my beliefs.

Ok, I'll bite. Let's debate.

One stipulation, however. I will not accept any statement or quote from the Bible as a supporting proof. For one, since I don't believe in God, I certainly don't accept a 2,000 year old collection of texts authored by religious zeolots many years after the facts as the word of God or proof of anything. And two, I see no reason that the Bible is any more authoritative than any other religious text, such as the Torah, the Q'uran, the Ipanishads or the Book of Mormon.

With that, by all means, carry on,


.

[Rod]

Well actually Christianity isn't worth anything (profewise) to anyone if you don't believe in the bibble, So actually debating with you a Christian topic would be just as lame as teaching a monkey to program PHP. Now, if you have lived in christianity or believe in the Bibble, then its another story - Because my deepest proof that Christianity is the real deal is buried in my heart, now since you arent God, you wouldn't know, and you know ... Judging a Book by it's cover saying comes in handy when dealing and critizicing religions.

[PA28 Pilot]

It is called "faith." One accepts the Bible as true, based on faith in God. No, you will not be able to change the beliefs of one whose faith is strong.

God is God and He will do what He wills, and if that is causing birth of a virgin, then so be it. Again, faith. God, being creator, is above the "laws" of nature. Were He not, He would not be God.

And the Bible is 100% true, it was the guidance of the Holy Spirit that determined the canon, working through men of faith, who prayed for that guidance.

One without faith in God will not be able to understand the truths of the Bible, nor accept them. You will find out what truth is when you die. Don't believe that? Then take the chance that you may be wrong and I may be right. If I am right I am OK, and the unbeliever is not. If the unbeliever is right, I have lost nothing. Go figure!

[LogicaLunatic]

Quote by: PA28 Pilot It is called "faith." One accepts the Bible as true, based on faith in God. No, you will not be able to change the beliefs of one whose faith is strong. God is God and He will do what He wills, and if that is causing birth of a virgin, then so be it. Again, faith. God, being creator, is above the "laws" of nature. Were He not, He would not be God. And the Bible is 100% true, it was the guidance of the Holy Spirit that determined the canon, working through men of faith, who prayed for that guidance. One without faith in God will not be able to understand the truths of the Bible, nor accept them. You will find out what truth is when you die. Don't believe that? Then take the chance that you may be wrong and I may be right. If I am right I am OK, and the unbeliever is not. If the unbeliever is right, I have lost nothing. Go figure!

Ahh several arguments rolled into one! Where to begin?

First "causing [the] birth of a virgin" is something even I've done As far as I can tell, my son was a virgin when born.

One without faith in God will not be able to understand the truths of the Bible, nor accept them.

How do I know the bible is true? Oh I must have faith? How do I acquire faith? Oh from the bible? Sounds like circular reasoning to me. Wait, in fact, it IS circular reasoning.

If I am right I am OK, and the unbeliever is not. If the unbeliever is right, I have lost nothing.

The wager! One of my favorites!

This is wrong on two different levels...

1) You assume that if there IS a deity, it is the deity YOU believe in. In fact there is an infinite number of possible Gods out there or no God at all. What if there IS a God but it's NOT the God that you believe in? Are you still ok? Not likely, this God may be just as jealous as the one you believe in and you're still screwed. Since there is an infinite number of possible Gods out there it is infinitely likely that you're WRONG.

2) If there is no God you've lost nothing? Imagine you're laying on your deathbed and all of a sudden you realize that there IS no God? In that one crystal clear moment you realize that the ONE life you had to live is about to come to an abrupt end. You realize that within the next 30 seconds you'll be gone. Not gone to heaven, not gone to hell, but all the way gone. No more existance. No more thoughts. No more emotions. No more family. No more music. No more food. No more sex. No more love. No looking down on your family. No more tiny electrical pulses travelling between neurons in your brain, which you now have realized make up ALL that you are. No more CHANCES to do ANYTHING over again? At that moment, how would you look back on your life? What have you given up, are you currently giving up, are going to give up in the future to make sure you get to Heaven?

The way I see it, making a bet on ONE out of the infinite number of possible Gods is the biggest mistake you could make with your one precious life.

Don't devote your life to a deity that likely doesn't exist. Devote your life to YOU.

LL

[tripimollee]

The bible cannot be 100% true- whats that part about the sun moving around the earth again?

[Paul]

Do Christians love their enemies?


"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say unto you, "Love your enemies, ---" - ( Matt.5:43-48 )

"I say to you who hear; Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you" - ( Luke 6:27 )

"--- love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil." - ( Luke 6:35 )

" If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love. --- You are My friend if you do whatever I command you. --- " - ( John 15:1-27 )

Do Christians love their enemies?

Peace be with you, Paul

[orgaelin]

Yeah but the whole point is that Christians generally do the opposite of what the Big J told them to do!