Nationalism

[Ali]

1. what is the difference b/w "nationalism" and "fanaticism" ?

2. when almost every religion preaches "tolerance", why dont ppl tolerate other religions ?

if anybody can answer these quetions, then he can surely call himself an "intellectual". I am not one.

[Mr.Vicchio]

1. Nationalism is generally a government propoganda tool, fanaticism is love of ones country to an absurd extreme.

2. Tolerance is an over used word. People don't tolerate other religions because the organized major religions tend to take a "my turf" approach. YOU MUST BELIEVE US, or you're soul is damned to HELL!

Tolerance is also one of the most dangerous influences in America today. But that's another thread.

[Nabeel Saiyer]

Nationalism is a BOND, which binds people together. Where as Fanaticism is NOT a BOND, rather a description or an adjective, i.e. like Fundamentalism, Radicalism, Racism, Defeatism etc etc.

Hence it is erroneous to compare the 2. And individual could be a nationalist, and a fanatic at the same time.

Regarding Nationalism being a Bond, it is a temporary bond based on Tribalistic tendencies. It is an emotional bond resulting from the Survival instinct and hence resulting in the love for dominance over others.

The only correct bond that binds people together is an ideological bond.

[jeffl]

Quote by: Nabeel Saiyer The only correct bond that binds people together is an ideological bond.

True Bortherhood, Kinship. I am agreeing with you 100%!

[Ali]

so many people think that it's the religion actually which is the cause of bloodshed but history and current events suggests that it's the nationalism ( misunderstanding oneself belonging to a superior race).
as history shows us, most bloody wars were fought becasue one human thought himself to be superior. like 1st and 2nd world wars, and various envasions of japanese in 16th to 19th centuries on china, killing so many people. envasions of genghis khan (if my spellings are correct, as i am from urdu medium school, we used to call him changez khan there, lol) and his decendents. envasions of alexander, the great for domination of greeks over iranians and later rest of the world. expeditions of colonial powers,like spanish( abit religion was involved), english potuguese, dutch and the french. in most recent times the horrific incidents in rawanda, where huto and tutsi tribes were fighting, and more than 300,000 people were killed.
and then the killings of arabs by jewish race. many people think that judaism is a religion, it's true. but more than being a religion it's a race, because there are so much restrictions if a person who is not a jew to become a jew. orthodox doesn't allow it at all, however some reformists do allow, but still they are not accepted in the community (my personal opinion). that's why jews don't preach. wallah i am not against jews, don't think that, please.
and there are numerous other examples which suggest that nationalism is the major cause of bloodshed. so it means if a person is against nationalism or try to weaken this sentiment he or she is a benefactor of humanity. what u people think?????
p.s. i don't get the chance of reading my posts after writting and i don't like too as well, so please don't wast your time in mentioning my gramatical and spelling errors.

[jeffl]

The tribal instinct can't be understated here.

People cause wars; people pull triggers and press buttons. You can't blame the tribal instinct; or whatever abstract notion might lodge itself into the tribal niche. Gangs fill the tribal niche when there is no structure available. The tribal niche will be filled; and we are ignorant of it, so we are subject to it.

[Dadoo]

Ali,
Contrast. Definition.
All things by degree.
Be wise and lose the contrived suffering. It is a hand-me-down from
fools and sages alike.
Is not a cot, a feather bed after 6 mos. on the dusty road?
A cat finds rareified treasures in a dirty bowl.

-And your angst is, as vanilla and pedestrian as fear can manifest:
You suffer for "other people's" states of mind.
There are no answers to your questions insofar as you have not accepted that
those others are NOT the source of your troubles. You are.
It is your mind that does not tolerate and cannot stand the TRUTHS you witness.

Look, Listen and find it as it is. Neither perfect nor flawed.
In light of the equanimical nature of MY reality,
all suffering is the Group cheer for fools and wisdom-beggars, or the sheer contrivance and trickery of sages and the wise!
However, if you wish to continue, brow furrowed forever...
Be My Guest.

Dadoo

[jeffl]

Quote by: Dadoo ...find it as it is. Neither perfect nor flawed. In light of the equanimical nature of MY reality, all suffering is the Group cheer for fools and wisdom-beggars, or the sheer contrivance and trickery of sages and the wise! However, if you wish to continue, brow furrowed forever... Be My Guest. Dadoo

Suffering serves many purposes, one of which is to identify injustice; in the case of rwanda in particular an injustice is delineated somewhat. It looks to me like someone wanted to create a market for their weapons, and they might yet succeed. Further, it clearly looks as though the UN is structured to service the secret groups. Read Romeo Dallaire's "Shake Hands with the Devil." Suffering is a cry of humanity, that any brother would respond to with care and attention.

[Dadoo]

Injustice in Rwanda in particular is the SAME as the suffering.
If an individual were to avoid the machete and the bullet would it suffer?
Would injustice exist if not for the weak moral fortitude and/or the low morale, inability to react by
the suffering themselves?
When does it end.. this suffering? When the UN says "NO!" ?
HA!
Not until the Rwandans themselves stop being unjust to their own well-being, and rise up
to end their own suffering.
To take a bullet while curled in the fetal position is far less courageous than to be shot in defiance
of the oppressors.
I do not see the suffering in the death of the heroes.
It is all a state of mind wrought by and inflicted upon the individuals who suffer...
I believe.

Dadoo

[jeffl]

Quote by: Dadoo IIt is all a state of mind wrought by and inflicted upon the individuals who suffer... I believe. Dadoo

Well, maybe you're right. I've got to wonder about the belgian expatriot working at the radio station that helped initiate the genocide in rwanda; and the UN putting a halt to the arms bust, likely belgian arms. Further, there's the actions of western europeans in africa generally. Europe hit africa with overt missionaries and covert pagans, and it was devastating.

[Dadoo]

Jeffl- probably not right, although I've a right to opinion based on lifelong perspective, tempered by my own fundamental values and augmented by the information I have gleened and accepted from other authors.
I have come to a subtle conclusion about the root of suffering. In my own experience, suffering has diminished, abated and disappeared through simple awareness and some discipline.
I cannot hold against Rwandans or any other beleaguered peoples this state of being, but until one takes charge of their life, suffering is a foregone conclusion and..
the only means to the end of 'liberation'.
Again, suffering=injustice. Injustice disappears when the group stops suffering. The injustice is the suffering, self-imposed. Only those who do not see it this way will suffer without end.
Take care and I hope you don't think me cold.. just logical and real.

[jeffl]

Quote by: Dadoo Again, suffering=injustice. Injustice disappears when the group stops suffering. The injustice is the suffering, self-imposed. Only those who do not see it this way will suffer without end. Take care and I hope you don't think me cold.. just logical and real.

i think i see your point. Division is assured if the perception of suffering is coddled. i can agree with that; but at the same time some people simply have suffering thrust upon them, and i think it's wrong to foist suffering onto others. I feel my culture is guilty of just that crime, and that there are people in my culture trying to make things right; i would like to facilitate that movement in some fashion, the least of which is by expressing my opinion.

See, there are subtleties to the issue, as usual: like the way the erronious perception of injustice, or suffering, degrades the integrity of the whole; and at the same time there is the accurate perception of injustice that makes a whole unjust and hence potentially non-viable. This speaks to the integrity of the conscious dynamic and the nature of Justice generally. I appreciate your effort to be logical and real; humbly i suggest that you be more thurough.

[Dadoo]

Ali,
To return to the original question, and with all due respect I cannot perfectly answer why people are so paradoxical in their nature. I agree that perfect nationalism, by definition would lead to what would previously be considered fanaticism. And on and on, as parameters expand through experience, contemporary/historical contrast can reveal a strong curve toward the temporal and away from the visceral. Once we considered ourselves autochthonic. Reason as a gift was revered. Now the world has surely been more taken-for-granted, and the expected ensuing confusion has birthed twisted perspectives, illusion-bound suffering, invisible threats from unknown enemies, etc.
Some, in the near-east have referred to this as a manifestation of the age of confusion, or "Kali".
In the 'Gita it is said, "Surely at the end of days, men will be eating each other!"
So, as this world heads toward the liberation and renewal of Kali's wrath, each day will seem more chaotic and less perfect than before. This is a decaying petri dish. We will not witness, most likely, the end of days, yet.. we will suffer more than those who do as the difference between the values of one generation's childhood are washed away and replaced by a steely and lustier version time and again.
In these days, there is a call to the wise, the seers, the seekers and the strong to help assuage the terrible suffering and prove to others that this is a perfect world and only our views will differ; only our perspective to change, and the rest will reappear as perfect and wonderful as the dream, and as lucid and graspable as the suffering which holds us now.
Have faith and lead the charge. Be Great!
Dadoo