Does God Exist?

[Anarchist]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Falc,)

Arrogance like yours almost ensures that you'll be athiest. You refuse to believe in something greater than yourself, because then you'd have to humble yourself before that entity. Hell, you can't even give appropriate respect to the belief of millions of people.

Moving along... most of the beginning of this is, essentially, the three-part "contingency" philosophical proof of a Creator's existence. We are contingent. All that we know of is contingent, therefore there must be something which is NOT contingent who created it all; there is a GOD.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
[emphasis added]

Atheism isn't synonymous with arrogance. I'm not sure why anyone should be obligated to show "the appropriate respect" to any delusional belief, regardless of whether or not millions of people believe it.

[Stigmata66]

I deny god's exsistence; he was conceived by primative minds during primative times. People couldn't comprehend anything beyond their tribes so they made up stories about how things came to be. Salvation, damnation makes no differnce to me.

[Jackney Sneeb]

"Does god exist?" How much does it matter? Suppose there's a god [forget for a moment the issue of how you know this]. Let’s say this God tells you to do something. Lots of other folks tell you what to do, too. How do you determine who to believe or obey? Your own judgment. It’s not avoidable. So can you have an obligation to obey God over your own judgment? Obviously not, since without using your own judgment, it is just a matter of blind luck who you will obey.

I have seen many a Christian wiggle and squirm when I ask them how they know the Bible is God’s book. They do their best to pretend they don’t use their own judgment to determine what is right and what is true. The trouble is, what else can they possible say chose it? Therefore, even if there is some all-knowing, really-big Good Dude somewhere, he wouldn’t be dumb enough to command me to do anything. He would know I act ultimately on my own judgment, which means if he wanted me to be “good,” he would want me to judge right from wrong, and to choose to act accordingly. Not only would he want this . . .he would understand that nothing else is possible.

(By the way, what kind of god has to order his creations around?)

((This rules out believing in "government," too.))

--Jackney Sneeb

[libertyminded]

Originally posted by Falc

Arrogance like yours almost ensures that you'll be athiest. You refuse to believe in something greater than yourself, because then you'd have to humble yourself before that entity. Hell, you can't even give appropriate respect to the belief of millions of people.


Arrogance is: Forcing others to live by a moral code you deem appropriate.
The problem with religion (and the religious) is that you're convinced you understand what moral code the all powerful creator of the universe wants all of us prairie apes to abide by. You believe there is absolute right and wrong and that you have the authority to force this code on everyone in this society.
Everyone can agree on the fact that crimes against persons and their properties should be discouraged and punnished, but the religious can never leave it at that. Half of the massive prison population in this country is nonviolent drug offenders that wouldn't be there if it weren't for the lofty morals of the Christians in power here.
Same thing goes for anyone stung by prostitution laws. Your God says "fornication" and "adultry" are sins so you will make everyone pay for them.
Until you find some way to emperically prove the existance of your impossible God, keep your arbitrary morals out of the laws of a secular nation.

[chicagoastronomer]

To the childlike mind who wants me to prove that God does not exist...

It is not my place to prove non-existance. It is the burden of the believer to prove existance of an item, as it is required in a court of law. Innocent until proven guilty. Belief and the religious has never "proven" anything yet, and I doubt never will. Blind faith has killed and enslaved more than the mightiest army.

And I never said that GOD does not exist...just that it certainly is not what the retarded mind of man has created to fill in the blanks.

And what type of all-powerful God requires and feeds on human worship and activity? Rather a vain and self-centered position. Most certainly man-made dogma, along with all other ceremony and sacrimental actions. No, logic demands that...the same God that creates a beautiful flower - is also the same GOD that allows the rape and death of a child. The God that paints a lovely rainbow is also the same God that shakes the Earth and buries thousands in an Earthquake. No loving entity would allow the innocent to suffer for the lessions of another to be learned.

We are not born with the innate knowledge of a creator. We are all taught...every single one of us. Our first words are not of Jesus, Allah or Ganish. No, it is all a bastardised theivery of someone else's belief, and altered to fit a need.

So now, I place the burden unto you to prove that your GOD exists/is better than any other GOD-(present or past), or any simple artifact of intervention.

[Highwayman]

God is eternally partially self-ignorant.

If he knew all of himself, he could define himself. If he could define himself, he would be finite. But all he knows about himself is what he has created. What is created is his knowledge, what is potential is his mystery: mysterious in him and to him.

All this applies equally to man.

John Fowles("Aristos", 1964)

[Impenitent]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (libertyminded,)
Originally posted by Falc

Arrogance like yours almost ensures that you'll be athiest. You refuse to believe in something greater than yourself, because then you'd have to humble yourself before that entity. Hell, you can't even give appropriate respect to the belief of millions of people.


Arrogance is: Forcing others to live by a moral code you deem appropriate.
The problem with religion (and the religious) is that you're convinced you understand what moral code the all powerful creator of the universe wants all of us prairie apes to abide by. You believe there is absolute right and wrong and that you have the authority to force this code on everyone in this society.
Everyone can agree on the fact that crimes against persons and their properties should be discouraged and punnished, but the religious can never leave it at that. Half of the massive prison population in this country is nonviolent drug offenders that wouldn't be there if it weren't for the lofty morals of the Christians in power here.
Same thing goes for anyone stung by prostitution laws. Your God says "fornication" and "adultry" are sins so you will make everyone pay for them.
Until you find some way to emperically prove the existance of your impossible God, keep your arbitrary morals out of the laws of a secular nation.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

but the bitch is that you are positing your arbitrary morals of secularism... thou shalt because god... thou shalt because state... thou shalt is still thou shalt...

[joshinvade]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (libertyminded,)
Many previous posters have the right idea. God is something different to many people. Even saying "God" as if there were a singular such thing is ethnocentric. The idea of a singular God arose from the Jews that had been captured, enslaved and scattered all over the middle east in ancient times. In those days everyone acknowledged the existance of everyone elses Gods and accepted the fact that your Gods held sway in you land and their Gods held sway in their lands. The Jews developed the idea that theirs was the only true God and that he was omnipresent because they needed something to unify and comfort them in the face of constant enslavement and relocation.

There are to many logical contradictions inherent in a claim of an all powerful God many of which have been touched on by previous posters.

1. If God is omnipotent, does he also have the ability to strip himself of his omnipotence? (Can God create an object that he cannot destroy?)

2. God cannot both be the creator of all things and yet be omnibenevolent. For if God is the creator of all things that would mean that he was also the creator of all evil, ergo he cannot be omnibenevolent.

3. If nothing comes from nothing, and all things in existance require a creator, then God too must have required a creator of some sort, meaning that God's existance would be reliant upon an even more powerful creator, which is impossible because you don't get anymore powerful then all "all-powerful" (omnipotent) correct?

4. If God is completely just, and he requires us to fulfill some sort of criterea to achieve eternal bliss, and he also loves all of his children equally, then it would follow reasonably that each person would be given an equal oppotunity to fulfill these predetermined criterea aspecially considering that the consequence for failing to fulfill such criterea is eternal torture. Since the majority of people ever to exist on Earth only ever hear (and develop a profound understanding) of their culture's form of religion. Thus, by the cirterea established by most monotheistic religions, pretty much everyone else will suffer in hell for their happenstance.

All in all it seems to me that faith is just a fancy word for gullibility. You believe in that which comforts you most regardless of whatever logical fallicies lie within.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>



3. You are basing your logic on an out of this realm being. The logic you are useing doesn't apply. You only think this way beucause thats the only way it happens here in our world. With an all-powerful god he needs not a creator because he is all there is. NO laws or logic(as we know it) are needed.

4. In the bible it states that we will be judged by what we know. If we have been giving the choice to follow christ or to not them we will be judged acordingly. That is why many believe that aborted babies and miscarages will go to heaven even if they haven't choosen to follow christ. THis is the mercy of god in action.

I see alot of people saying that the idea of god and religion arose from peoples insecurity. WEll how in the hell do you know that? Were you there?
Of course you would think its common to be afraid of death and rightfully so. So then they MUST have created their religion to give them hope. Yours and many other speculations on how religion popped up really annoys that crap out of me. Because is base on speculation on how the people felt. One person says it and hey it makes sense, so look what we got, something that religious people can't refute! All we need to say is that religion was invented to comfort us! They can't deny it because they weren't there, but you can't confirm it because YOU weren't there.

[Autolykos]

Personally, I think that the laws of physics and mathematics, and how they fit together, are proof of God.

[Paavo]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Autolykos,)
Personally, I think that the laws of physics and mathematics, and how they fit together, are proof of God.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

As in the god the bible is on about?
Wow, that's weird, since in order to believe in that god, you'd have to skip most of the rules of physics and mathematics. O__o

[joshinvade]

Why?

[Paavo]

Why?

Because the bible says he created this planet and life on it in a matter of days. I can't see that "fit together" with our rules of physics and mathematics.

EDIT: Let alone create a female from a bodypart of a male. :rolleyes:

[Sasha]

you assume his day=human day..not nessecarily accurate, and you also assume that creation is like, wham its their. again not nessicarily accurate. That however is an article of faith.

[buliwuf]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Paavo,)
Why?

Because the bible says he created this planet and life on it in a matter of days. I can't see that "fit together" with our rules of physics and mathematics.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

It doesn't "fit" only if you assume that science and math are the only standard to measure such things. Empirical measurements are a test, but not the only test of validity. Also don't forget that math and science themselves are based on unproven assumptions that must be accepted without the benefit of said empirical evidences.

Empirical proofs, in and of themselves, are no proof of anything and will only be convincing to an empiricist. You have to give an accounting of your epistemology before your ontology is useful.

[Autolykos]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Paavo)
As in the god the bible is on about?
Wow, that's weird, since in order to believe in that god, you'd have to skip most of the rules of physics and mathematics. O__o<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Um, no. I said nothing about the Bible. Let me clarify: I believe that the laws of physics and mathematics, and how they fit together, are proof that there is *a* God.

Is that better?

[joshinvade]

much.

[Paavo]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Autolykos,)
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Paavo)
As in the god the bible is on about?
Wow, that's weird, since in order to believe in that god, you'd have to skip most of the rules of physics and mathematics. O__o<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Um, no. I said nothing about the Bible. Let me clarify: I believe that the laws of physics and mathematics, and how they fit together, are proof that there is *a* God.

Is that better?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Oh yes, alot better.
I, as I stated earlier, also believe in something like a god.

And what I was trying to say was that how can someone believe in science(in my book, all areas are kindof bundled together) and at the same time take things like creationism as fact. I was a bit vague, I admit.

[neilcowling]

Eburchelli said: I am too logically minded to buy into religion.

A basic presupposition of the way I think is that God is, so logic that applies to my reasoning after presuming that God exists. I think attempts to prove that God exists via some supposedly objective standpoint is useless.

[Spyder Jerusalem]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (josh invade)

You are basing your logic on an out of this realm being. The logic you are useing doesn't apply. You only think this way beucause thats the only way it happens here in our world. With an all-powerful god he needs not a creator because he is all there is. NO laws or logic(as we know it) are needed.

I see alot of people saying that the idea of god and religion arose from peoples insecurity. WEll how in the hell do you know that? Were you there?
Of course you would think its common to be afraid of death and rightfully so. So then they MUST have created their religion to give them hope. Yours and many other speculations on how religion popped up really annoys that crap out of me. Because is base on speculation on how the people felt. One person says it and hey it makes sense, so look what we got, something that religious people can't refute! All we need to say is that religion was invented to comfort us! They can't deny it because they weren't there, but you can't confirm it because YOU weren't there.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Crap!
Crap, crap, crap, crap, crap!
"God" doesn't have to fit "logic", huh?
How verrrrry convenient, I think!
Convenient for the many and varied charlatans and con artists who have used people's fear of "death" and "god" to extract lifelong service and unending moneys for their "salvation".
It just about makes me wanna puke!
The Lie of "god", or The Big Lie as I call it, has been going on since man became aware of his own mortality. And immediately afterwards, there was some "priest" there to take advantage of that fear for his, and "the church"'s own benefit.
Baal, Amun-Ra, Zeus, Rama, Odin.
All of these "gods" were worshipped at one time or another, and each was shown to be "myth".
Now, in our modern days, the "myth" of "god" is yet again on the verge of being dispelled.
To the great fear and trepidation of priests and followers alike.

I say, why do we need "god" anymore?
It IS a vestige of our own primitivity.
A remnant of the days when diseases were "evil spirits" or "demons" and the mentally ill were "possessed".
We have grown beyond this superstitious drivel, both technologically and societally.
The longer we hold on to it, the longer its "sickness" will continue to sicken our society.

Begone, religicos!
Back to the caves with you, if that is what you crave.
We humans of now wish to cross the gulf of stars, and become nearly gods ourselves.
That is the only "godliness" that truly exists anyway.
Our superiority over every other life in the cosmos, bar none.
Till then, we strive, and without an "invisible friend" to hold our hands.

[french_jew]

" I think attempts to prove that God exists via some supposedly objective standpoint is useless. "

The question should not be "Does G.d exist ?".... but rather "Doesn't G.d exist ?"

The problem with non-beleivers is that they are constantly saying "Can you prove G.d exist ?"
But when you reverse the question ("Can you prove G.d doesn't exist ?"), they cannot answer.
Can someone prove HE doesn't exist ?

No, nobody can.
So leave us alone with science, because even with it, you can't prove HE doesn't exist.

Nathan