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Apr 9, 2004, 12:22 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,)

Complex systems, codes, etc. point to a Creator.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No they don't.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You don't get computers because the situation was good enough to spontaneous make one. The same is with the universe, all organisms, etc. Logically there must be a God who at least started all the stuff.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

What made god. No it is not logical for there to be a god. That's nonsense. You either prove it with evidence, or you say your belief is inconclusive at best. In my mind it does not point to a god.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:25 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
No they don't.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
...why not?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
What made god. No it is not logical for there to be a god. That's nonsense. You either prove it with evidence, or you say your belief is inconclusive at best. In my mind it does not point to a god. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>
God does not need to be made, since He is beyond all things which are made. That's like asking "What made nothingness?" God is beyond all of Creation, therefore He was never made and will never be... unmade?

Apr 9, 2004, 12:26 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,)

God does not need to be made, since He is beyond all things which are made. That's like asking "What made nothingness?" God is beyond all of Creation, therefore He was never made and will never be... unmade? <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I'm asking you to prove god. If you can't, the belief in god is purely inconclusive and a mere belief, not backed by anything logical. This is pointless... arguing with somebody who is so inconsiderate of other views.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:28 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I'm asking you to prove god. If you can't, the belief in god is purely inconclusive and a mere belief, not backed by anything logical. This is pointless... arguing with somebody who is so inconsiderate of other views. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I did. If you find a watch in the middle of a forest, would you assume there was a watchmaker? If you find a complex universe (we're in one!), would you assume there was a Universe Maker?

And inconsiderate? If you're going to say that, speak for yourself.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:30 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,)

I did.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No you did not.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
If you find a watch in the middle of a forest, would you assume there was a watchmaker?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Circular logic. That's a logical fallacy. Just because you say A exists, does not point to B existing. Your words are not proof alone. You need to present solid proof that there is a god, and you cannot do such a thing.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
If you find a complex universe (we're in one!), would you assume there was a Universe Maker?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Absolutely not. It just makes no sense. And that omnipresent stuff is just a load of nonsense to me... what created god?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
And inconsiderate? If you're going to say that, speak for yourself.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No you speak for yourself.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:33 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Circular logic. That's a logical fallacy. Just because you say A exists, does not point to B existing. Your words are not proof alone. You need to present solid proof that there is a god, and you cannot do such a thing.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
And that's called avoiding the question...
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Absolutely not. It just makes no sense. And that omnipresent stuff is just a load of nonsense to me... what created god?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Name one time you have ever heard of a system that existed which wasn't created. Or a code. If I wait long enough, is it possible that a computer will drop out of the sky into my lap?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
No you speak for yourself.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I don't need to, since it's not that I don't consider your beliefs, I just believe they are wrong.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:36 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,)

And that's called avoiding the question...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No, that's called pointing out a logical fallacy.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Name one time you have ever heard of a system that existed which wasn't created. Or a code. If I wait long enough, is it possible that a computer will drop out of the sky into my lap?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This is again another fallacy. Not relevant to the argument.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I don't need to, since it's not that I don't consider your beliefs, I just believe they are wrong.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I believe your beliefs are dead wrong too. Completely fallacious and wrong. That's my own personal take and I will now withdraw from this debate since you have failed to disprove me.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:40 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I believe your beliefs are dead wrong too. Completely fallacious and wrong. That's my own personal take and I will now withdraw from this debate since you have failed to disprove me.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
All right, then we agreed that computers randomly generate, they are not created?

Apr 9, 2004, 12:40 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,)

All right, then we agreed that computers randomly generate, they are not created?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Another fallacy having nothing to do with the argument at hand. The difference is computers were made by man, not god therefore it does not prove a damn thing.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:43 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Another fallacy having nothing to do with the argument at hand. The difference is computers were made by man, not god therefore it does not prove a damn thing.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I'm comparing computers to the universe. Complex systems, which support complex things, such as life (which is made up of codes, DNA). I'm saying we assume computers are made by manufacturers or whatever. The universe is similar in that it is certainly a complex system (so complex that we haven't even started understanding it)! Therefore, it is the logical conclusion that someone made the universe because of its complexity.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:44 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,)

I'm comparing computers to the universe. Complex systems, which support complex things, such as life (which is made up of codes, DNA). I'm saying we assume computers are made by manufacturers or whatever. The universe is similar in that it is certainly a complex system (so complex that we haven't even started understanding it)! Therefore, it is the logical conclusion that someone made the universe because of its complexity.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Actually there is no correlation here. It doesn't matter if the universe is complex or not. That isn't the issue. You cannot prove that there is a god. No it is not logical to think there is a god. Again another fallacy.. you are really good at spewing out fallacies.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:46 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Actually there is no correlation here. It doesn't matter if the universe is complex or not. That isn't the issue. You cannot prove that there is a god. No it is not logical to think there is a god. Again another fallacy.. you are really good at spewing out fallacies.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
It does matter if its complex. If you can honestly say complex things, such as computers, can appear spontaneously, then I will accept your belief that the universe can, too. But, if you cannot accept computers spontaneously appearing, then you shouldn't be able to accept the universe to, which is much more complex than any computer.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:47 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,)

It does matter if its complex. If you can honestly say complex things, such as computers, can appear spontaneously, then I will accept your belief that the universe can, too. But, if you cannot accept computers spontaneously appearing, then you shouldn't be able to accept the universe to, which is much more complex than any computer.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Again this has nothing to do with man made objects. Again another fallacy verbatim. That is very interesting you think that, but that is not what I think nor do I see logic in that. This is getting rather ridiculous.

ferrolad · Apr 9, 2004, 12:48 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,)
Does that really make more sense, ferrolad? To say complexity is made out of nothing over complexity is made by a Creator?

Anyway, the Eternal Being was not made. Time is one of His creations, therefore He is beyond time and is beyond beginning or end, since He created both of those, too.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This is part of the problem. A lot of people say "something must have created the universe" but have absolutely no problem saying "but nothing created [insert your god of choice]". It sounds a lot like the stuff you can read in a fantasy novel, but with less logic.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:48 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Again this has nothing to do with man made objects. Again another fallacy verbatim. That is very interesting you think that, but that is not what I think nor do I see logic in that. This is getting rather ridiculous.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I agree that it is, and we both seem to be unmovable, so let's call it a truce. Deal?

Apr 9, 2004, 12:48 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,)

I agree that it is, and we both seem to be unmovable, so let's call it a truce. Deal?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Very well. This is like challanging me in my views in gay rights, not movable, I wouldn't budge one inch.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:49 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
This is part of the problem. A lot of people say "something must have created the universe" but have absolutely no problem saying "but nothing created [insert your god of choice]". It sounds a lot like the stuff you can read in a fantasy novel, but with less logic.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
But God is not a physical complex system. And it is assuming everything has a time and beginning. Well, if God created time, He is beyond it. That means He has access to any time all at once. Being beyond time means you are not bound by beginning and end. We happen to be bound by time, and so is the universe, which obviously shows there was a beginning for it all.

Autophage · Apr 9, 2004, 12:50 am

I believe in god so far as by 'god' you mean 'that which created the universe'... but I don't believe it's a big mystical being, I believe that the world was created by consciousness - or rather, that nothing exists save big, inherently random primordial muck - from which came consciousnesses, which needed a way to experience themselves, thus the universe was formed - just a set of rules they could live by.

I've thoroughly mucked up my own explanation, I'm afraid.
But my point is that I believe that something big exists, but not anything with a direct consciousness of its own - rather just the fact that we have consciousnesses, and free will (which I do believe in).

Apr 9, 2004, 12:52 am

That's okay, as long as you are willing to admit there was a Creator. I'm not asking for the Christian one right now. We can touch on that one later.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:53 am

Wait, actually, re-reading your post, I am a bit confused.... could you explain a little more?

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Apr 9, 2004, 12:22 am	#381 (permalink) (top)
Giancarlo Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,) Complex systems, codes, etc. point to a Creator.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No they don't. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by You don't get computers because the situation was good enough to spontaneous make one. The same is with the universe, all organisms, etc. Logically there must be a God who at least started all the stuff.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> What made god. No it is not logical for there to be a god. That's nonsense. You either prove it with evidence, or you say your belief is inconclusive at best. In my mind it does not point to a god.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:25 am	#382 (permalink) (top)
JawaMan Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by No they don't.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> ...why not? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by What made god. No it is not logical for there to be a god. That's nonsense. You either prove it with evidence, or you say your belief is inconclusive at best. In my mind it does not point to a god. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> God does not need to be made, since He is beyond all things which are made. That's like asking "What made nothingness?" God is beyond all of Creation, therefore He was never made and will never be... unmade?

Apr 9, 2004, 12:26 am	#383 (permalink) (top)
Giancarlo Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,) God does not need to be made, since He is beyond all things which are made. That's like asking "What made nothingness?" God is beyond all of Creation, therefore He was never made and will never be... unmade? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'm asking you to prove god. If you can't, the belief in god is purely inconclusive and a mere belief, not backed by anything logical. This is pointless... arguing with somebody who is so inconsiderate of other views.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:28 am	#384 (permalink) (top)
JawaMan Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I'm asking you to prove god. If you can't, the belief in god is purely inconclusive and a mere belief, not backed by anything logical. This is pointless... arguing with somebody who is so inconsiderate of other views. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I did. If you find a watch in the middle of a forest, would you assume there was a watchmaker? If you find a complex universe (we're in one!), would you assume there was a Universe Maker? And inconsiderate? If you're going to say that, speak for yourself.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:30 am	#385 (permalink) (top)
Giancarlo Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,) I did.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No you did not. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by If you find a watch in the middle of a forest, would you assume there was a watchmaker?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Circular logic. That's a logical fallacy. Just because you say A exists, does not point to B existing. Your words are not proof alone. You need to present solid proof that there is a god, and you cannot do such a thing. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by If you find a complex universe (we're in one!), would you assume there was a Universe Maker?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Absolutely not. It just makes no sense. And that omnipresent stuff is just a load of nonsense to me... what created god? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by And inconsiderate? If you're going to say that, speak for yourself.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No you speak for yourself.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:33 am	#386 (permalink) (top)
JawaMan Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Circular logic. That's a logical fallacy. Just because you say A exists, does not point to B existing. Your words are not proof alone. You need to present solid proof that there is a god, and you cannot do such a thing.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> And that's called avoiding the question... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Absolutely not. It just makes no sense. And that omnipresent stuff is just a load of nonsense to me... what created god?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Name one time you have ever heard of a system that existed which wasn't created. Or a code. If I wait long enough, is it possible that a computer will drop out of the sky into my lap? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by No you speak for yourself.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I don't need to, since it's not that I don't consider your beliefs, I just believe they are wrong.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:36 am	#387 (permalink) (top)
Giancarlo Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,) And that's called avoiding the question...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No, that's called pointing out a logical fallacy. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Name one time you have ever heard of a system that existed which wasn't created. Or a code. If I wait long enough, is it possible that a computer will drop out of the sky into my lap?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This is again another fallacy. Not relevant to the argument. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I don't need to, since it's not that I don't consider your beliefs, I just believe they are wrong.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I believe your beliefs are dead wrong too. Completely fallacious and wrong. That's my own personal take and I will now withdraw from this debate since you have failed to disprove me.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:40 am	#388 (permalink) (top)
JawaMan Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I believe your beliefs are dead wrong too. Completely fallacious and wrong. That's my own personal take and I will now withdraw from this debate since you have failed to disprove me.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> All right, then we agreed that computers randomly generate, they are not created?

Apr 9, 2004, 12:40 am	#389 (permalink) (top)
Giancarlo Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,) All right, then we agreed that computers randomly generate, they are not created?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Another fallacy having nothing to do with the argument at hand. The difference is computers were made by man, not god therefore it does not prove a damn thing.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:43 am	#390 (permalink) (top)
JawaMan Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Another fallacy having nothing to do with the argument at hand. The difference is computers were made by man, not god therefore it does not prove a damn thing.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'm comparing computers to the universe. Complex systems, which support complex things, such as life (which is made up of codes, DNA). I'm saying we assume computers are made by manufacturers or whatever. The universe is similar in that it is certainly a complex system (so complex that we haven't even started understanding it)! Therefore, it is the logical conclusion that someone made the universe because of its complexity.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:44 am	#391 (permalink) (top)
Giancarlo Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,) I'm comparing computers to the universe. Complex systems, which support complex things, such as life (which is made up of codes, DNA). I'm saying we assume computers are made by manufacturers or whatever. The universe is similar in that it is certainly a complex system (so complex that we haven't even started understanding it)! Therefore, it is the logical conclusion that someone made the universe because of its complexity.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Actually there is no correlation here. It doesn't matter if the universe is complex or not. That isn't the issue. You cannot prove that there is a god. No it is not logical to think there is a god. Again another fallacy.. you are really good at spewing out fallacies.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:46 am	#392 (permalink) (top)
JawaMan Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Actually there is no correlation here. It doesn't matter if the universe is complex or not. That isn't the issue. You cannot prove that there is a god. No it is not logical to think there is a god. Again another fallacy.. you are really good at spewing out fallacies.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> It does matter if its complex. If you can honestly say complex things, such as computers, can appear spontaneously, then I will accept your belief that the universe can, too. But, if you cannot accept computers spontaneously appearing, then you shouldn't be able to accept the universe to, which is much more complex than any computer.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:47 am	#393 (permalink) (top)
Giancarlo Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,) It does matter if its complex. If you can honestly say complex things, such as computers, can appear spontaneously, then I will accept your belief that the universe can, too. But, if you cannot accept computers spontaneously appearing, then you shouldn't be able to accept the universe to, which is much more complex than any computer.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Again this has nothing to do with man made objects. Again another fallacy verbatim. That is very interesting you think that, but that is not what I think nor do I see logic in that. This is getting rather ridiculous.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:48 am	#394 (permalink) (top)
ferrolad Sedimentary Rock Posts: 9	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,) Does that really make more sense, ferrolad? To say complexity is made out of nothing over complexity is made by a Creator? Anyway, the Eternal Being was not made. Time is one of His creations, therefore He is beyond time and is beyond beginning or end, since He created both of those, too.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This is part of the problem. A lot of people say "something must have created the universe" but have absolutely no problem saying "but nothing created [insert your god of choice]". It sounds a lot like the stuff you can read in a fantasy novel, but with less logic.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:48 am	#395 (permalink) (top)
JawaMan Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Again this has nothing to do with man made objects. Again another fallacy verbatim. That is very interesting you think that, but that is not what I think nor do I see logic in that. This is getting rather ridiculous.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I agree that it is, and we both seem to be unmovable, so let's call it a truce. Deal?

Apr 9, 2004, 12:48 am	#396 (permalink) (top)
Giancarlo Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (JawaMan,) I agree that it is, and we both seem to be unmovable, so let's call it a truce. Deal?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Very well. This is like challanging me in my views in gay rights, not movable, I wouldn't budge one inch.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:49 am	#397 (permalink) (top)
JawaMan Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by This is part of the problem. A lot of people say "something must have created the universe" but have absolutely no problem saying "but nothing created [insert your god of choice]". It sounds a lot like the stuff you can read in a fantasy novel, but with less logic.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> But God is not a physical complex system. And it is assuming everything has a time and beginning. Well, if God created time, He is beyond it. That means He has access to any time all at once. Being beyond time means you are not bound by beginning and end. We happen to be bound by time, and so is the universe, which obviously shows there was a beginning for it all.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:50 am	#398 (permalink) (top)
Autophage Molten Ash Location: Washington, DC-ish Posts: 103	I believe in god so far as by 'god' you mean 'that which created the universe'... but I don't believe it's a big mystical being, I believe that the world was created by consciousness - or rather, that nothing exists save big, inherently random primordial muck - from which came consciousnesses, which needed a way to experience themselves, thus the universe was formed - just a set of rules they could live by. I've thoroughly mucked up my own explanation, I'm afraid. But my point is that I believe that something big exists, but not anything with a direct consciousness of its own - rather just the fact that we have consciousnesses, and free will (which I do believe in).

Apr 9, 2004, 12:52 am	#399 (permalink) (top)
JawaMan Guest Posts: n/a	That's okay, as long as you are willing to admit there was a Creator. I'm not asking for the Christian one right now. We can touch on that one later.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:53 am	#400 (permalink) (top)
JawaMan Guest Posts: n/a	Wait, actually, re-reading your post, I am a bit confused.... could you explain a little more?