Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

eburchelli · Feb 4, 2004, 11:32 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Suburbanite,)
Everyone has a religion, be it Christianity, Money, or Atheism. You have to have faith; it is what human beings rely on. Some people, many people, have their faith in reason... but I think others know better.<hr size="1" /></blockquote> Oh, but I do have faith in many things, conceptual or otherwise. I have faith in myself and in my family. I have faith that humans may someday realize their potential without the boundaries placed upon them by religion. My strongest faith is that planet earth will take care of itself, no matter what mankind does to try destroying it.

eburchelli · Feb 4, 2004, 11:49 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Immortalist,)
Hard Core Atheist. More specifically an Immortalist.

Some thoughts, but it's too late to ellaborate. NEED SLEEP.

1. I refuse to consider unfalsifiable claims.

2. In order to debunk religion one must have a firm understanding of our evolutionary psychology.

3. Religion is strictly a matter of cultural transmission.

4. Religions are contageous memeplexes (mind viruses).<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

1. I agree, except not everything is explainable by human standards.

2. I am not trying to debunk religion. Religion serves a purpose and is what many people need to exist. I think religion will play itself out when people find they are able to function quite well without it. Most people take the easy way out of things. It's easier to have an invisible entity upon which they can pile on their troubles. Otherwise, many minds would snap under the burdens humans are prone to amass.

3. Yes, it is cultural. But it's also commraderie. A sense of belonging to a group that has the same goals. Besides it's easier to believe in God, than to not believe in him. This should be clearly obvious to anyone who is truly a non-believer. The problem with atheism, is it is just another group with the same goals, albeit, opposite that of religion. I am not an atheist, as I understand their goals are to abolish all religions. As I said above, religion serves a purpose and I see that as beneficial to the human race, even though basically childish.

4. I disagee. Religion is not a virus. It's not a disease. It's not genetic, although it might be hereditary. It may be in the mind, but many things both good and bad have been done in the name of religion. It probably has as many positives as it has negatives. I do not believe in religion or God for myself, but I will always defend the right of any one else to believe in it. At least, until they tell me I have to, or else. I wouldn't take kindly to that.

LogicaLunatic · Feb 4, 2004, 03:32 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (eburchelli,)
Oh, but I do have faith in many things, conceptual or otherwise. I have faith in myself and in my family. I have faith that humans may someday realize their potential without the boundaries placed upon them by religion. My strongest faith is that planet earth will take care of itself, no matter what mankind does to try destroying it.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Would you call it faith or perhaps hope? Faith is the full belief in something based on zero evidence or even in SPITE of contrary evidence while hope is merely a wish.

By the definition above I live with absolutely zero faith in my life.

LogicaLunatic

i_am_a_n00bie · Feb 4, 2004, 07:52 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (LogicaLunatic,)
Faith is the full belief in something based on zero evidence or even in SPITE of contrary evidence while hope is merely a wish.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I would say that faith is the firm belief that something will happen, regardless of proof. I have faith that my train will arrive, no matter how late. I have faith that if I throw a ball up in the air, it will come down again. In the same way, I also have faith that God exists. Not because I'm too stupid to weigh up evidence, and definately not because I have not taken the time to research it. I have come to faith not only spiritually, but also intellectually.

tusaki · Feb 4, 2004, 08:52 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,)
I have come to faith not only spiritually, but also intellectually.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>Could you elaborate?

eburchelli · Feb 4, 2004, 09:51 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (LogicaLunatic,)

Would you call it faith or perhaps hope? Faith is the full belief in something based on zero evidence or even in SPITE of contrary evidence while hope is merely a wish.

By the definition above I live with absolutely zero faith in my life.

LogicaLunatic<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I hope I have faith in myself because if hope is a wish, that is as mythical as an illusion. Faith to me is the standard upon which we build our hopes and dreams. I believe I am capable of accomplishing whatever my faith, hopes and dreams demand of me. I am not a task master and I haven't required that I fulfill the impossible. But I also expect a certain degree of accomplishment in order to continue hoping.

Each of us has to find our path through life. My way may be totally out of the question for anyone else, nor do I require that anyone else accompany me. Even my life's companion, who is now deceased, sought a different path than mine. But it worked well for us during our time together.

18tir · Feb 4, 2004, 11:15 pm

I do not think God exists. There is absolutely no evidence for his existence. All we have are a few claims by primitive people thousands of years ago. We have not seen any evidence of any miracles or other supernatural happenings. There is about as much evidence for the existance of a God as there is for witches, goblins, dragons, giants and other mythological creatures. Christianity has as much credibility as the religion of the ancient Greeks and Egyptians.

As to the belief in afterlife, this is harmful and untrue. First, nobody has ever seen this afterlife that is mentioned by so many religions. We do not have any reason to believe that it exists. Second, belief in the afterlife and a future paradise makes this life unimportant and meaningless. If this life doesn't matter and most of us will live an eternity in another world, why should we care about our lives? Why should we care that millions of people starve to death or killed? According to religious propagandists, these people end up in heaven. Belief in an afterlife and God makes people uninterested in solving their personal problems. They drift away into a fantasy thinking about the paradise that they will supposedly one day reach. Some might commit suicide to reach this imaginary place.

Religion has not done any good for humanity. It has caused many wars and genocides. It has made people more intolerant and less humane. It is a disease.

i_am_a_n00bie · Feb 5, 2004, 02:17 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (tusaki,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,)
I have come to faith not only spiritually, but also intellectually.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>Could you elaborate?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Well, all the evidence seems to suggest that God exists, and all you people who say that the evidence is to the contrary have either seen different evidence to what I have seen, or have not researched it seriously.

tusaki · Feb 5, 2004, 05:23 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,)
Well, all the evidence seems to suggest that God exists, and all you people who say that the evidence is to the contrary have either seen different evidence to what I have seen, or have not researched it seriously.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>Well, I voted "I'm not sure". Could you give me the evidence so I can change my vote to "yes"?

i_am_a_n00bie · Feb 5, 2004, 06:08 am

Have a read of this...

Why I Left Atheism

... It is, as the name implies, a story of a guy who set out to scientifically disprove the Bible, and found God. Or God found him.

If you want some more examples...

What about the early churh? After Jesus died, his followers consisted of 2 women, who went to embalm his corpse. In those days, women had little or no social standing. Less than a year later, he had thousands of supporters, carrying his word throughout the lands. What could possibly have brought about this change, other than a miracle similar to what is described in the Gospels? It almost certainly couldn't have been the women; I'm not being sexist, but the simple fact is that in those days women were not taken seriously.

Also, archeologically, the truth of the Gospels is the single most proven piece of evidence in history, around six times more copies have been found than the next contender "The Illiad" by Homer. On top of this, pieces had been transcribed into early sermons, for example, and these transcriptions verify around 90% of the Bible. The earliest transcriptions come up to about ten years after the event. On top of this, the transcriptions and ancient writings were in circulation while the people depicted in them were still alive. If the early enemies of Christianity wanted to disagree on any of the plain facts, such as the timelines, written in the books, then they could have. They havent, though. Effectively, the archaological evidence of the Bible is very significant.

I have a question to everyone who claims that religion is stupid/tool of control/outdated/wrong/unfounded/contradictory/unscientific/whatever, how much serious research backs your claims? I have yet to hear a significant argument that works against Christianity.

Paavo · Feb 5, 2004, 09:07 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I have yet to hear a significant argument that works against Christianity. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Other than it's all based on magic?
j/k, but still... why is it that everyone should "have proof" against something that can't be proven to be true in the first place? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

tusaki · Feb 5, 2004, 09:35 am

About that article you gave us a link to: I read it, but it doesn't really make sense. When I read it, it seems the man was selfish and unhappy when he was an atheist and he found happiness and 'goodness' by becomming a christian.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (www.doesgodexist.org)
The fool hath said in his heart, "There is no God." Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: There is none that doeth good. God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Here he says that non-believers aren't good. And that is false. I know plenty of people who are good and kind and you-name-it and are atheists or believe 'something else'.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (www.doesgodexist.org)

Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?...I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

I have tried almost everything you can imagine to find pleasure and happiness. I will not try to tell you that I did not find pleasure using my own system of following my own desires, but I can guarantee you that I did not find happiness. I tried every conceivable thing you can think of. I tried all kinds of things--things that were immoral, that were wrong, that hurt other people, and things that I would not even want to describe. I did those things because I was trying to find pleasure and happiness and, as I say, I found pleasure sometimes. However, I never went to bed at night satisfied or happy with my life and enjoying my living. I never got up in the morning looking forward to a new day. Life was just one long chain of misery.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Here he says his life was meaningless without god and he hurt people because he was selfish and followed his own desires. But praise the lord he has found him and now he is 'good'. This is nonsense as well. Because you dont -need- to be a christian to see what is the right thing to do. to be 'good' and 'not-selfish'. And there are plenty of 'christians' which are greedy and hurt people because they follow their own desires.

Basicly, my point is: I don't think you have to be a christian to make sense of your life and make it meaningfull. To be 'good'. There are plenty of other religions which claim exactly the same thing (ultimate truth). And if there is a god, he will know why I did what I did. I dont fear judgement. I try to find my faults and work to better myself.

Being religious is not bad, it's just a framework to which you can shape yourself and be content to know that you'll probably end up doing more 'good' than harm. And having the most common mistakes a man can make laid out before you will help you better yourself.

But claiming to be the one and only truth... never really makes sense to me. I don't believe in that. But like I said and voted, I'm not sure. Could be. Could be the Atheists are right and we all decay into dust. Could be the Islam is right and Allah will punish me for not praying to mecca every day. Could be the Shinto's are right and I become a spirit in nature.

But ultimately, I believe that whatever there is, it will forgive, because when you try to be a good person, that should be enough.

LogicaLunatic · Feb 5, 2004, 01:34 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,)

I would say that faith is the firm belief that something will happen, regardless of proof. I have faith that my train will arrive, no matter how late. I have faith that if I throw a ball up in the air, it will come down again. In the same way, I also have faith that God exists. Not because I'm too stupid to weigh up evidence, and definately not because I have not taken the time to research it. I have come to faith not only spiritually, but also intellectually.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Based on your definition of faith, you would NOT have faith that your train would arrive. You would believe it based on the observation that trains tend to arrive. That is not faith but a belief based upon evidence. Moreover, these are observations that any other person can usually independantly verify which adds quite a bit more support for your belief and makes it much more likely to be considered true.

If you said, "I believe that my train will arrive, not at the train station but at my front door even though there are no train tracks by my front door," that would be considered faith.

Based on your definition of faith, you would NOT have faith that a ball thrown up in the air would come down again. You would believe it based on the observation that balls thrown up in the air tend to come down. That is not faith but a belief based upon evidence. Moreover, these are observations that any other person can usually independantly verify which adds quite a bit more support for your belief and makes it much more likely to be considered true.

If you said, "Even if I'm in outer space with no gravity, I believe that when I throw a ball up(*) it will come down again," that would be considered faith.

(* In outerspace the direction "up" is almost meaningless because our definition of the word is based upon the assumption that gravity is down.)

Now on to your belief in God. You claim that your belief in God is just as valid as your belief that the train will arrive or that a ball will fall, once thrown. What I would like you to do is point us to the evidence that you used to come to this conclusion and come up with a way that it can be independantly verified.

Thanks...

LogicaLunatic

LogicaLunatic · Feb 5, 2004, 01:51 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,)

What about the early churh? After Jesus died, his followers consisted of 2 women, who went to embalm his corpse. In those days, women had little or no social standing. Less than a year later, he had thousands of supporters, carrying his word throughout the lands. What could possibly have brought about this change, other than a miracle similar to what is described in the Gospels? It almost certainly couldn't have been the women; I'm not being sexist, but the simple fact is that in those days women were not taken seriously.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Where did you get this number? How do you know that there were only two Christians after Jesus's death and how do you know that they were women? Please list sources and if the Bible is included please allow me extra time to reply as I'll be busy laughing my ass off.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,)

Also, archeologically, the truth of the Gospels is the single most proven piece of evidence in history, around six times more copies have been found than the next contender "The Illiad" by Homer. On top of this, pieces had been transcribed into early sermons, for example, and these transcriptions verify around 90% of the Bible. The earliest transcriptions come up to about ten years after the event. On top of this, the transcriptions and ancient writings were in circulation while the people depicted in them were still alive. If the early enemies of Christianity wanted to disagree on any of the plain facts, such as the timelines, written in the books, then they could have. They havent, though. Effectively, the archaological evidence of the Bible is very significant.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I'll agree that there is much evidence that the Bible was written a long time ago. Many books were written a long time ago, some about fairys, some about unicorns. The fact that the books were written a long time ago, or even written at all, is not evidence that God, Fairys or Unicorns exist.

Furthermore, even if the Bible were PLUM FULL of verifyable facts (which it isn't) it wouldn't make the case for God any stronger. The Bible, books written about the Bible, etc. are not evidence of God. They are merely evidence that the people that wrote the books believed in God.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,)

I have a question to everyone who claims that religion is stupid/tool of control/outdated/wrong/unfounded/contradictory/unscientific/whatever, how much serious research backs your claims? I have yet to hear a significant argument that works against Christianity.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I know I'm answering a question with a question but it is only to point out how foolish the question is in the first place...

How much serious research backs the dis-belief in flying pink unicorns with fairy wings? How much serious research backs the dis-belief in Santa Claus?

What the hell kind of question is that?

LogicaLunatic

LogicaLunatic · Feb 5, 2004, 01:53 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,)
Have a read of this...

Why I Left Atheism
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

If you believe that Mr. Clayton's arguments are good support for the belief in God, think again. His arguments are deeply rooted in physics of which he only knows enough to be intellectually dangerous. Perhaps you should check out the Science and Technology part of this site.

LogicaLunatic

Anarchist Patriot · Feb 6, 2004, 07:37 am

I believe God exists but the real God is not anything like we were taught. God is not the mysterious being who walks by the "cool of the day" seeking to kill Moses and was deceived by Moses's wife who cut his foreskin and smeared blood on his tent. Nor did he command his followers to commit mass murder of those whose crime was inhabiting the Holy Land before his chosen people could settle there.

Rather God is the creator of all the heavens and earth. He creates all beings on all worlds.

We tend to personify God but what God looks like is anyone's guess.

I believe in such an entity because there are so many myths of such a being. If a myth is so enduring, than there must be some germ of truth in it.

i_am_a_n00bie · Feb 6, 2004, 07:53 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (LogicaLunatic,)
Now on to your belief in God. You claim that your belief in God is just as valid as your belief that the train will arrive or that a ball will fall, once thrown. What I would like you to do is point us to the evidence that you used to come to this conclusion and come up with a way that it can be independantly verified.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

The existance and divinity of Jesus WAS independantly verified, by those who hated him at the time. Firstly, a number of Roman (and therefore pagan) historians verified his existance, and the fact that he could perform miracles, less than a hundred years after he died. Secondly, there is an inference of verification, when people who hate you do not tell you you are wrong. Can you imagine if a politician said something completely outrageous, and the opposition let him go? The only situation that could have caused this is if the politician's outrageous claims were obviously and evidently true. The same thing happened to Jesus, except that those who hated Jesus hated him a lot more than the lefties hate the righties and visa versa. How much verification do you want?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (LogicaLunatic,)
I'll agree that there is much evidence that the Bible was written a long time ago. Many books were written a long time ago, some about fairys, some about unicorns. The fact that the books were written a long time ago, or even written at all, is not evidence that God, Fairys or Unicorns exist.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This is true. My argument never suggests that its age implies its truth. Fortunately, though, we are aguing neither about Fairys, or Unicorns. It is true that a number of fictional "books" (there are/were other, more common means of retaining information) have been created throughout the ages. It is also true that a number of factual books have been created. Neither has significant bearing on the status of the other. Since we are talking about the Bible, it claims to be factual, it is supported by facts and testimonies of both Christians and non-Christians, of Jewish, Arab, Roman, Greek, and Egyptian ethnicity. In fact, the only reason I can think of that would cause you to doubt the factuality of the Bible, is that you have not experienced what it recounts first-hand. In which case I ask you, why do you believe... anything?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (LogicaLunatic,)
How much serious research backs the dis-belief in flying pink unicorns with fairy wings? How much serious research backs the dis-belief in Santa Claus?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You have a point, albeit an entirely circular and evasive one. Are you a politician?

I'm not sure how long we can keep arguing, because you seem to rely on your own lack of experience as evidence enough.

This may be shifting the burden of proof from a legalistic one to a more scientific one, but I challenge you to try to disprove the Bible. Try to avoid insulting me, and also, please try to come up with an argument other than "The Bible recounts events entirely outside my range of experience, so it must be completely false." If you can, this should be quite interesting.

**Pooeypants** · Feb 6, 2004, 09:02 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,)

I'm not sure how long we can keep arguing, because you seem to rely on your own lack of experience as evidence enough.

This may be shifting the burden of proof from a legalistic one to a more scientific one, but I challenge you to try to disprove the Bible. Try to avoid insulting me, and also, please try to come up with an argument other than "The Bible recounts events entirely outside my range of experience, so it must be completely false." If you can, this should be quite interesting.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
The burden of proof lies with you as you're trying to suggest the positive. If I made an assertion concerning the existence of something, I must have evidence to back to prove it exists, no one has to disprove me until I bring in the evidence. How do we disprove something that hasn't been "proven"?

Btw, has anyone seen my flying pink elephant lately?

bmaestro · Feb 7, 2004, 04:35 pm

if god is some being, or some essence of consciousness (whats the definition of being alive or conscious?), i don't think that god exists. The reason that we see god as a reflection of ourselves is because everything that we attribute to god is really just a reflection of some human thing. is god our humanity?

However if god exists(as being, matter, existance... whatever god is), there are a few things i could atribute to it. first, fundamental laws of physics (i don't think we have a clear grasp of these anyway, but gravitation, space and time, the laws by which fundamental particles organize themselves...) Second, maybe its just some psychological trick, but i have this mental contruct of life being some essence, in which case, it had to come from somewhere, albeit an emergant behavior from physical and chemical laws. Third, i think that god is necessary to explain the origin of matter. the big bang seems like a valid theory, but what is the nothingness from which matter came? if its another universe, how did that originate? is time infinite, and there has been some sort of existance throughout this infinite time?

Am I asking too many questions?

-b

i_am_a_n00bie · Feb 7, 2004, 11:36 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,)
The burden of proof lies with you as you're trying to suggest the positive.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

If I was trying to sue you, then you would be quite right. I was referring to the burden of proof that scientific theories are verified by. Scientifically, a theory is fine until evidence comes to light which contradicts it.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (makeshiftpatriot,)
Am I asking too many questions?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You can't ask too many questions.

View Poll Results: Do you believe that a god exists?
Yes	72	45.86%
No	58	36.94%
I don't know	27	17.20%
Voters: 157. You may not vote

Feb 4, 2004, 11:32 am	#21 (permalink) (top)
eburchelli Molten Ash Posts: 106	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Suburbanite,) Everyone has a religion, be it Christianity, Money, or Atheism. You have to have faith; it is what human beings rely on. Some people, many people, have their faith in reason... but I think others know better.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Oh, but I do have faith in many things, conceptual or otherwise. I have faith in myself and in my family. I have faith that humans may someday realize their potential without the boundaries placed upon them by religion. My strongest faith is that planet earth will take care of itself, no matter what mankind does to try destroying it.

Feb 4, 2004, 11:49 am	#22 (permalink) (top)
eburchelli Molten Ash Posts: 106	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Immortalist,) Hard Core Atheist. More specifically an Immortalist. Some thoughts, but it's too late to ellaborate. NEED SLEEP. 1. I refuse to consider unfalsifiable claims. 2. In order to debunk religion one must have a firm understanding of our evolutionary psychology. 3. Religion is strictly a matter of cultural transmission. 4. Religions are contageous memeplexes (mind viruses).<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> 1. I agree, except not everything is explainable by human standards. 2. I am not trying to debunk religion. Religion serves a purpose and is what many people need to exist. I think religion will play itself out when people find they are able to function quite well without it. Most people take the easy way out of things. It's easier to have an invisible entity upon which they can pile on their troubles. Otherwise, many minds would snap under the burdens humans are prone to amass. 3. Yes, it is cultural. But it's also commraderie. A sense of belonging to a group that has the same goals. Besides it's easier to believe in God, than to not believe in him. This should be clearly obvious to anyone who is truly a non-believer. The problem with atheism, is it is just another group with the same goals, albeit, opposite that of religion. I am not an atheist, as I understand their goals are to abolish all religions. As I said above, religion serves a purpose and I see that as beneficial to the human race, even though basically childish. 4. I disagee. Religion is not a virus. It's not a disease. It's not genetic, although it might be hereditary. It may be in the mind, but many things both good and bad have been done in the name of religion. It probably has as many positives as it has negatives. I do not believe in religion or God for myself, but I will always defend the right of any one else to believe in it. At least, until they tell me I have to, or else. I wouldn't take kindly to that.

Feb 4, 2004, 03:32 pm	#23 (permalink) (top)
LogicaLunatic Hrm... Location: MN Posts: 445	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (eburchelli,) Oh, but I do have faith in many things, conceptual or otherwise. I have faith in myself and in my family. I have faith that humans may someday realize their potential without the boundaries placed upon them by religion. My strongest faith is that planet earth will take care of itself, no matter what mankind does to try destroying it.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Would you call it faith or perhaps hope? Faith is the full belief in something based on zero evidence or even in SPITE of contrary evidence while hope is merely a wish. By the definition above I live with absolutely zero faith in my life. LogicaLunatic "Statistics show that of those who contract the habit of eating, very few survive." -- Wallace Irwin

Feb 4, 2004, 07:52 pm	#24 (permalink) (top)
i_am_a_n00bie Sedimentary Rock Posts: 23	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (LogicaLunatic,) Faith is the full belief in something based on zero evidence or even in SPITE of contrary evidence while hope is merely a wish.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I would say that faith is the firm belief that something will happen, regardless of proof. I have faith that my train will arrive, no matter how late. I have faith that if I throw a ball up in the air, it will come down again. In the same way, I also have faith that God exists. Not because I'm too stupid to weigh up evidence, and definately not because I have not taken the time to research it. I have come to faith not only spiritually, but also intellectually.

Feb 4, 2004, 08:52 pm	#25 (permalink) (top)
tusaki Playful Location: Groningen, the Netherlands Posts: 805	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,) I have come to faith not only spiritually, but also intellectually.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Could you elaborate? Hope & Dream

Feb 4, 2004, 09:51 pm	#26 (permalink) (top)
eburchelli Molten Ash Posts: 106	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (LogicaLunatic,) Would you call it faith or perhaps hope? Faith is the full belief in something based on zero evidence or even in SPITE of contrary evidence while hope is merely a wish. By the definition above I live with absolutely zero faith in my life. LogicaLunatic<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I hope I have faith in myself because if hope is a wish, that is as mythical as an illusion. Faith to me is the standard upon which we build our hopes and dreams. I believe I am capable of accomplishing whatever my faith, hopes and dreams demand of me. I am not a task master and I haven't required that I fulfill the impossible. But I also expect a certain degree of accomplishment in order to continue hoping. Each of us has to find our path through life. My way may be totally out of the question for anyone else, nor do I require that anyone else accompany me. Even my life's companion, who is now deceased, sought a different path than mine. But it worked well for us during our time together.

Feb 4, 2004, 11:15 pm	#27 (permalink) (top)
18tir Sedimentary Rock Posts: 3	I do not think God exists. There is absolutely no evidence for his existence. All we have are a few claims by primitive people thousands of years ago. We have not seen any evidence of any miracles or other supernatural happenings. There is about as much evidence for the existance of a God as there is for witches, goblins, dragons, giants and other mythological creatures. Christianity has as much credibility as the religion of the ancient Greeks and Egyptians. As to the belief in afterlife, this is harmful and untrue. First, nobody has ever seen this afterlife that is mentioned by so many religions. We do not have any reason to believe that it exists. Second, belief in the afterlife and a future paradise makes this life unimportant and meaningless. If this life doesn't matter and most of us will live an eternity in another world, why should we care about our lives? Why should we care that millions of people starve to death or killed? According to religious propagandists, these people end up in heaven. Belief in an afterlife and God makes people uninterested in solving their personal problems. They drift away into a fantasy thinking about the paradise that they will supposedly one day reach. Some might commit suicide to reach this imaginary place. Religion has not done any good for humanity. It has caused many wars and genocides. It has made people more intolerant and less humane. It is a disease.

Feb 5, 2004, 02:17 am	#28 (permalink) (top)
i_am_a_n00bie Sedimentary Rock Posts: 23	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (tusaki,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,) I have come to faith not only spiritually, but also intellectually.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Could you elaborate?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well, all the evidence seems to suggest that God exists, and all you people who say that the evidence is to the contrary have either seen different evidence to what I have seen, or have not researched it seriously.

Feb 5, 2004, 05:23 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
tusaki Playful Location: Groningen, the Netherlands Posts: 805	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,) Well, all the evidence seems to suggest that God exists, and all you people who say that the evidence is to the contrary have either seen different evidence to what I have seen, or have not researched it seriously.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Well, I voted "I'm not sure". Could you give me the evidence so I can change my vote to "yes"? Hope & Dream

Feb 5, 2004, 06:08 am	#30 (permalink) (top)
i_am_a_n00bie Sedimentary Rock Posts: 23	Have a read of this... Why I Left Atheism ... It is, as the name implies, a story of a guy who set out to scientifically disprove the Bible, and found God. Or God found him. If you want some more examples... What about the early churh? After Jesus died, his followers consisted of 2 women, who went to embalm his corpse. In those days, women had little or no social standing. Less than a year later, he had thousands of supporters, carrying his word throughout the lands. What could possibly have brought about this change, other than a miracle similar to what is described in the Gospels? It almost certainly couldn't have been the women; I'm not being sexist, but the simple fact is that in those days women were not taken seriously. Also, archeologically, the truth of the Gospels is the single most proven piece of evidence in history, around six times more copies have been found than the next contender "The Illiad" by Homer. On top of this, pieces had been transcribed into early sermons, for example, and these transcriptions verify around 90% of the Bible. The earliest transcriptions come up to about ten years after the event. On top of this, the transcriptions and ancient writings were in circulation while the people depicted in them were still alive. If the early enemies of Christianity wanted to disagree on any of the plain facts, such as the timelines, written in the books, then they could have. They havent, though. Effectively, the archaological evidence of the Bible is very significant. I have a question to everyone who claims that religion is stupid/tool of control/outdated/wrong/unfounded/contradictory/unscientific/whatever, how much serious research backs your claims? I have yet to hear a significant argument that works against Christianity.

Feb 5, 2004, 09:07 am	#31 (permalink) (top)
Paavo Location: Finland Posts: 712	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I have yet to hear a significant argument that works against Christianity. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Other than it's all based on magic? j/k, but still... why is it that everyone should "have proof" against something that can't be proven to be true in the first place? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Feb 5, 2004, 09:35 am	#32 (permalink) (top)
tusaki Playful Location: Groningen, the Netherlands Posts: 805	About that article you gave us a link to: I read it, but it doesn't really make sense. When I read it, it seems the man was selfish and unhappy when he was an atheist and he found happiness and 'goodness' by becomming a christian. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (www.doesgodexist.org) The fool hath said in his heart, "There is no God." Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: There is none that doeth good. God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Here he says that non-believers aren't good. And that is false. I know plenty of people who are good and kind and you-name-it and are atheists or believe 'something else'. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (www.doesgodexist.org) Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?...I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit. I have tried almost everything you can imagine to find pleasure and happiness. I will not try to tell you that I did not find pleasure using my own system of following my own desires, but I can guarantee you that I did not find happiness. I tried every conceivable thing you can think of. I tried all kinds of things--things that were immoral, that were wrong, that hurt other people, and things that I would not even want to describe. I did those things because I was trying to find pleasure and happiness and, as I say, I found pleasure sometimes. However, I never went to bed at night satisfied or happy with my life and enjoying my living. I never got up in the morning looking forward to a new day. Life was just one long chain of misery.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Here he says his life was meaningless without god and he hurt people because he was selfish and followed his own desires. But praise the lord he has found him and now he is 'good'. This is nonsense as well. Because you dont -need- to be a christian to see what is the right thing to do. to be 'good' and 'not-selfish'. And there are plenty of 'christians' which are greedy and hurt people because they follow their own desires. Basicly, my point is: I don't think you have to be a christian to make sense of your life and make it meaningfull. To be 'good'. There are plenty of other religions which claim exactly the same thing (ultimate truth). And if there is a god, he will know why I did what I did. I dont fear judgement. I try to find my faults and work to better myself. Being religious is not bad, it's just a framework to which you can shape yourself and be content to know that you'll probably end up doing more 'good' than harm. And having the most common mistakes a man can make laid out before you will help you better yourself. But claiming to be the one and only truth... never really makes sense to me. I don't believe in that. But like I said and voted, I'm not sure. Could be. Could be the Atheists are right and we all decay into dust. Could be the Islam is right and Allah will punish me for not praying to mecca every day. Could be the Shinto's are right and I become a spirit in nature. But ultimately, I believe that whatever there is, it will forgive, because when you try to be a good person, that should be enough. Hope & Dream

Feb 5, 2004, 01:34 pm	#33 (permalink) (top)
LogicaLunatic Hrm... Location: MN Posts: 445	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,) I would say that faith is the firm belief that something will happen, regardless of proof. I have faith that my train will arrive, no matter how late. I have faith that if I throw a ball up in the air, it will come down again. In the same way, I also have faith that God exists. Not because I'm too stupid to weigh up evidence, and definately not because I have not taken the time to research it. I have come to faith not only spiritually, but also intellectually.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Based on your definition of faith, you would NOT have faith that your train would arrive. You would believe it based on the observation that trains tend to arrive. That is not faith but a belief based upon evidence. Moreover, these are observations that any other person can usually independantly verify which adds quite a bit more support for your belief and makes it much more likely to be considered true. If you said, "I believe that my train will arrive, not at the train station but at my front door even though there are no train tracks by my front door," that would be considered faith. Based on your definition of faith, you would NOT have faith that a ball thrown up in the air would come down again. You would believe it based on the observation that balls thrown up in the air tend to come down. That is not faith but a belief based upon evidence. Moreover, these are observations that any other person can usually independantly verify which adds quite a bit more support for your belief and makes it much more likely to be considered true. If you said, "Even if I'm in outer space with no gravity, I believe that when I throw a ball up() it will come down again," that would be considered faith. ( In outerspace the direction "up" is almost meaningless because our definition of the word is based upon the assumption that gravity is down.) Now on to your belief in God. You claim that your belief in God is just as valid as your belief that the train will arrive or that a ball will fall, once thrown. What I would like you to do is point us to the evidence that you used to come to this conclusion and come up with a way that it can be independantly verified. Thanks... LogicaLunatic "Statistics show that of those who contract the habit of eating, very few survive." -- Wallace Irwin

Feb 5, 2004, 01:51 pm	#34 (permalink) (top)
LogicaLunatic Hrm... Location: MN Posts: 445	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,) What about the early churh? After Jesus died, his followers consisted of 2 women, who went to embalm his corpse. In those days, women had little or no social standing. Less than a year later, he had thousands of supporters, carrying his word throughout the lands. What could possibly have brought about this change, other than a miracle similar to what is described in the Gospels? It almost certainly couldn't have been the women; I'm not being sexist, but the simple fact is that in those days women were not taken seriously. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Where did you get this number? How do you know that there were only two Christians after Jesus's death and how do you know that they were women? Please list sources and if the Bible is included please allow me extra time to reply as I'll be busy laughing my ass off. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,) Also, archeologically, the truth of the Gospels is the single most proven piece of evidence in history, around six times more copies have been found than the next contender "The Illiad" by Homer. On top of this, pieces had been transcribed into early sermons, for example, and these transcriptions verify around 90% of the Bible. The earliest transcriptions come up to about ten years after the event. On top of this, the transcriptions and ancient writings were in circulation while the people depicted in them were still alive. If the early enemies of Christianity wanted to disagree on any of the plain facts, such as the timelines, written in the books, then they could have. They havent, though. Effectively, the archaological evidence of the Bible is very significant. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'll agree that there is much evidence that the Bible was written a long time ago. Many books were written a long time ago, some about fairys, some about unicorns. The fact that the books were written a long time ago, or even written at all, is not evidence that God, Fairys or Unicorns exist. Furthermore, even if the Bible were PLUM FULL of verifyable facts (which it isn't) it wouldn't make the case for God any stronger. The Bible, books written about the Bible, etc. are not evidence of God. They are merely evidence that the people that wrote the books believed in God. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,) I have a question to everyone who claims that religion is stupid/tool of control/outdated/wrong/unfounded/contradictory/unscientific/whatever, how much serious research backs your claims? I have yet to hear a significant argument that works against Christianity.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I know I'm answering a question with a question but it is only to point out how foolish the question is in the first place... How much serious research backs the dis-belief in flying pink unicorns with fairy wings? How much serious research backs the dis-belief in Santa Claus? What the hell kind of question is that? LogicaLunatic "Statistics show that of those who contract the habit of eating, very few survive." -- Wallace Irwin

Feb 5, 2004, 01:53 pm	#35 (permalink) (top)
LogicaLunatic Hrm... Location: MN Posts: 445	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,) Have a read of this... Why I Left Atheism <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> If you believe that Mr. Clayton's arguments are good support for the belief in God, think again. His arguments are deeply rooted in physics of which he only knows enough to be intellectually dangerous. Perhaps you should check out the Science and Technology part of this site. LogicaLunatic "Statistics show that of those who contract the habit of eating, very few survive." -- Wallace Irwin

Feb 6, 2004, 07:37 am	#36 (permalink) (top)
Anarchist Patriot Molten Ash Posts: 143	I believe God exists but the real God is not anything like we were taught. God is not the mysterious being who walks by the "cool of the day" seeking to kill Moses and was deceived by Moses's wife who cut his foreskin and smeared blood on his tent. Nor did he command his followers to commit mass murder of those whose crime was inhabiting the Holy Land before his chosen people could settle there. Rather God is the creator of all the heavens and earth. He creates all beings on all worlds. We tend to personify God but what God looks like is anyone's guess. I believe in such an entity because there are so many myths of such a being. If a myth is so enduring, than there must be some germ of truth in it.

Feb 6, 2004, 07:53 am	#37 (permalink) (top)
i_am_a_n00bie Sedimentary Rock Posts: 23	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (LogicaLunatic,) Now on to your belief in God. You claim that your belief in God is just as valid as your belief that the train will arrive or that a ball will fall, once thrown. What I would like you to do is point us to the evidence that you used to come to this conclusion and come up with a way that it can be independantly verified.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The existance and divinity of Jesus WAS independantly verified, by those who hated him at the time. Firstly, a number of Roman (and therefore pagan) historians verified his existance, and the fact that he could perform miracles, less than a hundred years after he died. Secondly, there is an inference of verification, when people who hate you do not tell you you are wrong. Can you imagine if a politician said something completely outrageous, and the opposition let him go? The only situation that could have caused this is if the politician's outrageous claims were obviously and evidently true. The same thing happened to Jesus, except that those who hated Jesus hated him a lot more than the lefties hate the righties and visa versa. How much verification do you want? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (LogicaLunatic,) I'll agree that there is much evidence that the Bible was written a long time ago. Many books were written a long time ago, some about fairys, some about unicorns. The fact that the books were written a long time ago, or even written at all, is not evidence that God, Fairys or Unicorns exist.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This is true. My argument never suggests that its age implies its truth. Fortunately, though, we are aguing neither about Fairys, or Unicorns. It is true that a number of fictional "books" (there are/were other, more common means of retaining information) have been created throughout the ages. It is also true that a number of factual books have been created. Neither has significant bearing on the status of the other. Since we are talking about the Bible, it claims to be factual, it is supported by facts and testimonies of both Christians and non-Christians, of Jewish, Arab, Roman, Greek, and Egyptian ethnicity. In fact, the only reason I can think of that would cause you to doubt the factuality of the Bible, is that you have not experienced what it recounts first-hand. In which case I ask you, why do you believe... anything? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (LogicaLunatic,) How much serious research backs the dis-belief in flying pink unicorns with fairy wings? How much serious research backs the dis-belief in Santa Claus?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You have a point, albeit an entirely circular and evasive one. Are you a politician? I'm not sure how long we can keep arguing, because you seem to rely on your own lack of experience as evidence enough. This may be shifting the burden of proof from a legalistic one to a more scientific one, but I challenge you to try to disprove the Bible. Try to avoid insulting me, and also, please try to come up with an argument other than "The Bible recounts events entirely outside my range of experience, so it must be completely false." If you can, this should be quite interesting.

Feb 6, 2004, 09:02 am	#38 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,549	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (i_am_a_n00bie,) I'm not sure how long we can keep arguing, because you seem to rely on your own lack of experience as evidence enough. This may be shifting the burden of proof from a legalistic one to a more scientific one, but I challenge you to try to disprove the Bible. Try to avoid insulting me, and also, please try to come up with an argument other than "The Bible recounts events entirely outside my range of experience, so it must be completely false." If you can, this should be quite interesting.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The burden of proof lies with you as you're trying to suggest the positive. If I made an assertion concerning the existence of something, I must have evidence to back to prove it exists, no one has to disprove me until I bring in the evidence. How do we disprove something that hasn't been "proven"? Btw, has anyone seen my flying pink elephant lately? War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 7, 2004, 04:35 pm	#39 (permalink) (top)
bmaestro Molten Ash Posts: 61	if god is some being, or some essence of consciousness (whats the definition of being alive or conscious?), i don't think that god exists. The reason that we see god as a reflection of ourselves is because everything that we attribute to god is really just a reflection of some human thing. is god our humanity? However if god exists(as being, matter, existance... whatever god is), there are a few things i could atribute to it. first, fundamental laws of physics (i don't think we have a clear grasp of these anyway, but gravitation, space and time, the laws by which fundamental particles organize themselves...) Second, maybe its just some psychological trick, but i have this mental contruct of life being some essence, in which case, it had to come from somewhere, albeit an emergant behavior from physical and chemical laws. Third, i think that god is necessary to explain the origin of matter. the big bang seems like a valid theory, but what is the nothingness from which matter came? if its another universe, how did that originate? is time infinite, and there has been some sort of existance throughout this infinite time? Am I asking too many questions? -b

Feb 7, 2004, 11:36 pm	#40 (permalink) (top)
i_am_a_n00bie Sedimentary Rock Posts: 23	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,) The burden of proof lies with you as you're trying to suggest the positive.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> If I was trying to sue you, then you would be quite right. I was referring to the burden of proof that scientific theories are verified by. Scientifically, a theory is fine until evidence comes to light which contradicts it. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (makeshiftpatriot,) Am I asking too many questions?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You can't ask too many questions.