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Poetic_Justice · Feb 20, 2004, 01:21 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
So when all you Christians die and go to Heaven, what do you look like? I'm assuming that since God created man in his own image that you'll retain some sort of prairie ape characteristics. Do you exist for all eternity as an adult or as a kid or just whatever state you're in when you die?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
We'll be human, not spirit-beings or some wacky jazz like that, provided Christianity is true, beyond that, how should I know?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Why did "God" tell all of us to cover up our naughty parts? Didn't he create our bodies? Shouldn't we be proud of his masterfull design... or did certain parts of our bodies become evil all of the sudden after Adam and Eve ate some fruit or something (right, don't you dare eat the fruit of knowledge if you want to remain perfect, ignorance is bliss)?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
they aren't evil, we are evil, it is symbolic of how we have to cover up our uncleaness, and in the Bible sexuality is often used as analogy to uncleanness spiritually...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Were there 2 Polynesians, Native Americans, Blacks, Caucasians, Arabs, Indians and Pygmies on the Arc with Noah? <hr size="1" /></blockquote>
nope, just Noah, his wife, his their sons, and their wives... Those races came from them...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Why would God have some plan for all of his beloved children to "return" to him and then only make this plan well known and popular in a limited part of the world to a limited number of people (and a small minority I might add)? <hr size="1" /></blockquote>
God knows who will accept Him and who will not, therefore He can work the Word so that it reaches those who will accept it. Also, He is known throughout the world by His works(creation).

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Why would God want you to pray at all, doesn't he know everything you're thinking before you do? <hr size="1" /></blockquote>
What is prayer, but deep thought and pleading?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
What makes all of you take Abraham at his word? Do you know the history of Abraham and his travels? Do you even know how the Jewish tribal Gods system worked back in those days? Do you know that all Jews used to believe in multiple Gods and that Abraham went around trying to convince everyone that there was only one God, El, and eventually the idea caught on because the Jews were sick of having to change the Gods they worshiped every time they got relocated (and in those days the Jews got relocated quite a bit)? <hr size="1" /></blockquote>
You are obviously the one who is quite mistaken as the Jews came from Abraham, he started the whole Jewish race, it was not existent before him. Abraham was a wealthy man from the land of Ur who brought His family and servants to Canaan and brought them all, or at least most, to the Jewish faith. Althoguh really, it was mroe a belief in God than the true Jewish faith... the true Jewish faith with all its domestic, cultural, and religious laws, was not existent until the time of Moses.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
How can anyone say that Abraham and the three religions he spawned are any less a product of social systems naturally creating a belief system then the religions of the Hindu, Shinto, Druids, Native Americans? You can't. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Why can't I?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Lighten up everyone. There's no reason to believe in some ancient book filled with obviously fabricated stories. You don't need to live forever. You don't need to have some invisible jerk telling you what to do.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Frankly, I wish life were only life, with no afterlife, then there would be more incentive for people to do mroe in this life, though perhaps selfishness would also creep up.. Also I would not have to live with the thought of some going to hell. Also, 'obviously' fabricated? slight bias wouldnt you say?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
For those of you that were athiest at one time and swithced over to religion, I'm sorry something really painfull happened to you that made it hard for you to let go of someone, but do you really want to think that you're conscience will exist forever? Don't you realize that eventually you will be sick of everything including sitting around and playing a harp for the all powerful creator of the universe. What could you possibly want to do FOREVER?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
First, you have a very strange view of converts, as if all of them turn because of personal crisis... that were true, then how come so many in personal crisis do the exact opposite?
Second, your view of heaven is quite corrupted. Most likely you have been propagandized by the Catholic and popular notions which have no biblical basis. and I'll tell you one thing, whatever is in heaven, even if it is nothingness, a cessation of existence, its still preferable to endless damnation, which to me seems like the only option... either one of our optimistic religions is right, or we al lgo to hell... because frankly, if the God up ther isn't merciful, we've done plenty to deserve going to hell forever... all of us have, including me... heck, I wouldn't be surprised if that's all there is for everyone, hell...

**Pooeypants** · Feb 20, 2004, 03:51 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PaulOtt,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,)
But I do have the right to assert a flying pink elephant doesn't if it doesn't fulfill the scientific requirements to do so.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>The scientific method is good for some things, and it is not good for some things. Do the characteristics of the subject allow it to be seen, heard, tasted, felt, or smelled in impersonal, controlled, and repeatable experiments?

Most often it is the atheists that claim God has characteristics that would cause Him to be revealed in such a test. It is all quite illogical.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
What is illogical is to assert the existence of something but yet not be able to prove it's existence. My flying pink elephant does exist, ok? It's just very good at hiding.

PaulOtt · Feb 20, 2004, 11:38 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,)
What is illogical is to assert the existence of something but yet not be able to prove it's existence. My flying pink elephant does exist, ok? It's just very good at hiding.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>The problem with you trying to use a "pink elephant" is that you are using descriptive words which imply a constant, and very apparent, physical manifestation. Pink is a visual color, and elephants are large, tangible creatures with which we are all familiar. The implied nature of your "pink elephant" is one that has characteristics that should make it proveable through a process like the scientific method.

Simply scroll back to view my thoughts on whether or not the scientific method is a good way of perceiving God's characteristics.

tman_ndsu08 · Feb 20, 2004, 12:47 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
What is illogical is to assert the existence of something but yet not be able to prove it's existence. My flying pink elephant does exist, ok? It's just very good at hiding. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Logic has nothing to do with it.

You can assert ANYTHING you like. However, if no proof exists to confirm its existence then you can neither conclude that it exists or does not exist.

Just to clear something up, as well, in order for something to not exist it must have existed at one time in the past and then went out of existence.

To claim that something doesn't exist without proof of it ever having existed is a fallacy.

**Pooeypants** · Feb 20, 2004, 03:28 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PaulOtt,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,)
What is illogical is to assert the existence of something but yet not be able to prove it's existence. My flying pink elephant does exist, ok? It's just very good at hiding.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>The problem with you trying to use a "pink elephant" is that you are using descriptive words which imply a constant, and very apparent, physical manifestation. Pink is a visual color, and elephants are large, tangible creatures with which we are all familiar. The implied nature of your "pink elephant" is one that has characteristics that should make it proveable through a process like the scientific method.

Simply scroll back to view my thoughts on whether or not the scientific method is a good way of perceiving God's characteristics.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Ah but we've got no evidence that pink elephants DO exist do we now then? I could've used an example of anything that did not exist. So now we go back to square one, God cannot be detected by scientific method, yes? Then I can disregard God as far with logic and reasoning.

**Pooeypants** · Feb 20, 2004, 03:29 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (tman_ndsu08,)

Logic has nothing to do with it.

You can assert ANYTHING you like. However, if no proof exists to confirm its existence then you can neither conclude that it exists or does not exist.

Just to clear something up, as well, in order for something to not exist it must have existed at one time in the past and then went out of existence.

To claim that something doesn't exist without proof of it ever having existed is a fallacy.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I see, you're a fond member of the "proving negatives" society?

tman_ndsu08 · Feb 20, 2004, 03:54 pm

I've already stated this, but i suppose i can repeat it since it's important.

In order to prove that something is NOT true (false), you need only one example that is inconsistant with the original assertion.

If there is no proof that the "thing" in the original assertion ever existed, then you can't prove that it doesn't exist because there are NO examples that are inconsistant with the assertion.

PaulOtt · Feb 20, 2004, 04:15 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,)
Ah but we've got no evidence that pink elephants DO exist do we now then? I could've used an example of anything that did not exist. So now we go back to square one, God cannot be detected by scientific method, yes? Then I can disregard God as far with logic and reasoning.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>The point was, it is only relevent if your example has qualities that would not make it a suitable candidate for using the scientific method. It is not logic, and it is not reasoning, to try to require the subject to pass a test when it is obvious the test does not apply. Just as you should not try to use your nose to hear sounds, neither should you try to use the scientific method to detect God.

Or, can you logically defend your implication as to why God should choose to reveal Himself through impersonal, controlled, repeatable, man-made-up experiments? Why do you believe this?

tman_ndsu08 · Feb 20, 2004, 07:53 pm

Paul, here is a question for you:

what would bet he ultimate way for someone to control the world?

I have an idea......

make them think that you created the world and make them think that they can only be saved from hell if they believe in you and do exactly as you say.

Remind you of anything?

Are you aware that their is a theory that the dead sea scrolls and all organized religon today was convieved by Satan to control the people of the world?

I mean... what better way to get everyone to believe in you by making them think that you're god?So who knows, perhaps you're really going to church for Satan.

Maybe God just wants you to live your lives any way that you want. Perhaps God's big purpose for our lives is simply to live... and when you die...you die. A bit grim...but so too is the nature of the universe.

Poetic_Justice · Feb 21, 2004, 12:34 am

There's also a theory that we are all figments of some guy's imagination... and a theory that there is no such thing as the material, everything is merely mental...
somehow, I don't believe either..
Satan is incapable of inducing love, therefore the bible cannot be his instrument...
Now really, lets leave the wild theories conceived by the deranged and enraged out of this

tman_ndsu08 · Feb 21, 2004, 01:09 am

Sat is incapable of love? You read this from the bible didn't you?

See my above argument.

Poetic_Justice · Feb 21, 2004, 01:44 am

the idea of Satan, as a definition is that he is incapable of love
saying Satan can promote love, is like saying a circle can be square... one has to change the whole definition of the circle in order to make it logical... just as it is with saying Satan can show or promote love...

libertyminded · Feb 21, 2004, 04:20 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by
How can anyone say that Abraham and the three religions he spawned are any less a product of social systems naturally creating a belief system then the religions of the Hindu, Shinto, Druids, Native Americans? You can't.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why can't I?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Okay, let me rephrase this. What reasons do you have for accepting Proestant Christianity as any more or less valid than any other major religion?

Impenitent · Feb 21, 2004, 09:45 am

if satan is incapable of love, god has no justification for keeping him in hell... think about it... if satan chooses not to love god then hell is an appropriate outcome, but if satan does not have the power to love god, then god has created an individual simply to torture in hell...

bow at the temple of the torturing tyrant...

tman_ndsu08 · Feb 21, 2004, 12:05 pm

I thought the reason that Satan was cast to hell was he loved himself more than god...or something like that.

Besides...you still didn't answer me where you got these "facts" about satan....the bible? Yeah...and if the bible was written by satan he could have made all that stuff up so you wouldn't suspect he was the one who wrote it and not god.

**Pooeypants** · Feb 21, 2004, 01:35 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PaulOtt,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,)
Ah but we've got no evidence that pink elephants DO exist do we now then? I could've used an example of anything that did not exist. So now we go back to square one, God cannot be detected by scientific method, yes? Then I can disregard God as far with logic and reasoning.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>The point was, it is only relevent if your example has qualities that would not make it a suitable candidate for using the scientific method. It is not logic, and it is not reasoning, to try to require the subject to pass a test when it is obvious the test does not apply. Just as you should not try to use your nose to hear sounds, neither should you try to use the scientific method to detect God.

Or, can you logically defend your implication as to why God should choose to reveal Himself through impersonal, controlled, repeatable, man-made-up experiments? Why do you believe this?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Maybe I should've mentioned this pink elephant is invisible, and will only appear to it's believers. *nods*

From your analogy of nose to sound, that's just means I'm using the wrong equipment, so what should I be using instead? Enlighten us.

Spyder Jerusalem · Feb 23, 2004, 04:42 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08,

This kind o' glib shit is meaningless.
I'm an atheist.
And I've been in a "foxhole".
Being shot at, with threat of death looming.
Didn't change my mind one bit.
Those "foxhole conversions" are simply fear.
Fear of death and pain.
An animalistic response to a frightening situation.
So, gimme a fuckin' break with this crap and say something that actually means something, okay?

I hope you weren't trying to say you weren't afraid of death.

I think hope is a great thing to have, but being realistic is better.[/quote]
Yep, that's what I said!
I am an atheist, and I am NOT afraid of death!
Death is the end product of life, and as inevitable as entropic decay.
Why fear the inevitable, huh?
Fear of death is as stupid as belief in god, and in fact one depends on the other.
Why is it that most christers "love" their god yet "fear" going to meet him?
Interesting!

Spyder Jerusalem · Feb 23, 2004, 04:46 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PaulOtt,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,)
From your point of view, it's a futile argument, so you can keep your blind faith and I'll keep to logic and reason. Now we're all happy.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>It would appear that we both keep our faith in our ways of perceiving the world.

Claiming that God does not exist, should He choose to not fulfill the requirements of the scientific method, is not logical, however.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Now that's just stupid, man!
It is infinitely logical to deny the existence of something for which NO proof exists.
In fact, it is what we call "common sense".

There are 15' tall purple carnivorous bunny rabits on the moon building ships to come and harvest human meat!
Prove there aren't!
Isn't the belief in the ridiculous just that much more stupid when tthere is no proof?
Thought so!
Bonehead!

Spyder Jerusalem · Feb 23, 2004, 04:50 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (ethyl,)
Something very interesting is going to happen soon.

First I must explain. When an atheist states he/she does not believe in God. First premise - there is a God - it's just that she/he does not believe in "it."

Does that make sense to anyone?

Okay, so with that out of the way. We are on the threshold of one of the biggest outpouring of the Holy Spirit in several hundred years.

Folks will be walking around saying, "can I get that too." Trust me (smile) I do know. If you want more info let me know. My field is Bible research.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Ummmmm, nope, wrongo, babe.
The christers superstitious "faith" is DYING!
Just like every other religion on the planet has.
It will descend to the realm of mythology and superstition.
Where it belongs!

Oh, and the field of "bible research" will be relegated to other pseudo-sciences like the Flat-Earthers and the Intelligent Designers.
Bullshit, plain and simple.
I suggest finding a new career.
Perhaps mythologist?

Automatic Nate · Feb 23, 2004, 04:56 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Spyder Jerusalem,)
The christers superstitious "faith" is DYING!
Just like every other religion on the planet has.
It will descend to the realm of mythology and superstition.
Where it belongs!<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Didn't Fritz Nietzsche say things along those lines around a hundred years ago? Yet in Africa alone, 10 million Xtns have become 360 million Xtns in that span of time. But that's just statistics.

View Poll Results: Do you believe that a god exists?
Yes	72	45.86%
No	58	36.94%
I don't know	27	17.20%
Voters: 157. You may not vote

Feb 20, 2004, 01:21 am	#221 (permalink) (top)
Poetic_Justice Igneous Magma Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 209	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by So when all you Christians die and go to Heaven, what do you look like? I'm assuming that since God created man in his own image that you'll retain some sort of prairie ape characteristics. Do you exist for all eternity as an adult or as a kid or just whatever state you're in when you die?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> We'll be human, not spirit-beings or some wacky jazz like that, provided Christianity is true, beyond that, how should I know? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Why did "God" tell all of us to cover up our naughty parts? Didn't he create our bodies? Shouldn't we be proud of his masterfull design... or did certain parts of our bodies become evil all of the sudden after Adam and Eve ate some fruit or something (right, don't you dare eat the fruit of knowledge if you want to remain perfect, ignorance is bliss)?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> they aren't evil, we are evil, it is symbolic of how we have to cover up our uncleaness, and in the Bible sexuality is often used as analogy to uncleanness spiritually... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Were there 2 Polynesians, Native Americans, Blacks, Caucasians, Arabs, Indians and Pygmies on the Arc with Noah? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> nope, just Noah, his wife, his their sons, and their wives... Those races came from them... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Why would God have some plan for all of his beloved children to "return" to him and then only make this plan well known and popular in a limited part of the world to a limited number of people (and a small minority I might add)? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> God knows who will accept Him and who will not, therefore He can work the Word so that it reaches those who will accept it. Also, He is known throughout the world by His works(creation). </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Why would God want you to pray at all, doesn't he know everything you're thinking before you do? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> What is prayer, but deep thought and pleading? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by What makes all of you take Abraham at his word? Do you know the history of Abraham and his travels? Do you even know how the Jewish tribal Gods system worked back in those days? Do you know that all Jews used to believe in multiple Gods and that Abraham went around trying to convince everyone that there was only one God, El, and eventually the idea caught on because the Jews were sick of having to change the Gods they worshiped every time they got relocated (and in those days the Jews got relocated quite a bit)? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You are obviously the one who is quite mistaken as the Jews came from Abraham, he started the whole Jewish race, it was not existent before him. Abraham was a wealthy man from the land of Ur who brought His family and servants to Canaan and brought them all, or at least most, to the Jewish faith. Althoguh really, it was mroe a belief in God than the true Jewish faith... the true Jewish faith with all its domestic, cultural, and religious laws, was not existent until the time of Moses. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by How can anyone say that Abraham and the three religions he spawned are any less a product of social systems naturally creating a belief system then the religions of the Hindu, Shinto, Druids, Native Americans? You can't. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Why can't I? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Lighten up everyone. There's no reason to believe in some ancient book filled with obviously fabricated stories. You don't need to live forever. You don't need to have some invisible jerk telling you what to do.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Frankly, I wish life were only life, with no afterlife, then there would be more incentive for people to do mroe in this life, though perhaps selfishness would also creep up.. Also I would not have to live with the thought of some going to hell. Also, 'obviously' fabricated? slight bias wouldnt you say? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by For those of you that were athiest at one time and swithced over to religion, I'm sorry something really painfull happened to you that made it hard for you to let go of someone, but do you really want to think that you're conscience will exist forever? Don't you realize that eventually you will be sick of everything including sitting around and playing a harp for the all powerful creator of the universe. What could you possibly want to do FOREVER?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> First, you have a very strange view of converts, as if all of them turn because of personal crisis... that were true, then how come so many in personal crisis do the exact opposite? Second, your view of heaven is quite corrupted. Most likely you have been propagandized by the Catholic and popular notions which have no biblical basis. and I'll tell you one thing, whatever is in heaven, even if it is nothingness, a cessation of existence, its still preferable to endless damnation, which to me seems like the only option... either one of our optimistic religions is right, or we al lgo to hell... because frankly, if the God up ther isn't merciful, we've done plenty to deserve going to hell forever... all of us have, including me... heck, I wouldn't be surprised if that's all there is for everyone, hell...

Feb 20, 2004, 03:51 am	#222 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,609	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PaulOtt,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,) But I do have the right to assert a flying pink elephant doesn't if it doesn't fulfill the scientific requirements to do so.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>The scientific method is good for some things, and it is not good for some things. Do the characteristics of the subject allow it to be seen, heard, tasted, felt, or smelled in impersonal, controlled, and repeatable experiments? Most often it is the atheists that claim God has characteristics that would cause Him to be revealed in such a test. It is all quite illogical.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> What is illogical is to assert the existence of something but yet not be able to prove it's existence. My flying pink elephant does exist, ok? It's just very good at hiding. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 20, 2004, 11:38 am	#223 (permalink) (top)
PaulOtt Sedimentary Rock Location: Tennessee Posts: 13	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,) What is illogical is to assert the existence of something but yet not be able to prove it's existence. My flying pink elephant does exist, ok? It's just very good at hiding.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>The problem with you trying to use a "pink elephant" is that you are using descriptive words which imply a constant, and very apparent, physical manifestation. Pink is a visual color, and elephants are large, tangible creatures with which we are all familiar. The implied nature of your "pink elephant" is one that has characteristics that should make it proveable through a process like the scientific method. Simply scroll back to view my thoughts on whether or not the scientific method is a good way of perceiving God's characteristics. <span style='font-family:Verdana'><span style='color:purple'><span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>God lives.</span></span></span> <span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'>--------------------</span>

Feb 20, 2004, 12:47 pm	#224 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by What is illogical is to assert the existence of something but yet not be able to prove it's existence. My flying pink elephant does exist, ok? It's just very good at hiding. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Logic has nothing to do with it. You can assert ANYTHING you like. However, if no proof exists to confirm its existence then you can neither conclude that it exists or does not exist. Just to clear something up, as well, in order for something to not exist it must have existed at one time in the past and then went out of existence. To claim that something doesn't exist without proof of it ever having existed is a fallacy.

Feb 20, 2004, 03:28 pm	#225 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,609	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PaulOtt,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,) What is illogical is to assert the existence of something but yet not be able to prove it's existence. My flying pink elephant does exist, ok? It's just very good at hiding.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>The problem with you trying to use a "pink elephant" is that you are using descriptive words which imply a constant, and very apparent, physical manifestation. Pink is a visual color, and elephants are large, tangible creatures with which we are all familiar. The implied nature of your "pink elephant" is one that has characteristics that should make it proveable through a process like the scientific method. Simply scroll back to view my thoughts on whether or not the scientific method is a good way of perceiving God's characteristics.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Ah but we've got no evidence that pink elephants DO exist do we now then? I could've used an example of anything that did not exist. So now we go back to square one, God cannot be detected by scientific method, yes? Then I can disregard God as far with logic and reasoning. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 20, 2004, 03:29 pm	#226 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,609	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (tman_ndsu08,) Logic has nothing to do with it. You can assert ANYTHING you like. However, if no proof exists to confirm its existence then you can neither conclude that it exists or does not exist. Just to clear something up, as well, in order for something to not exist it must have existed at one time in the past and then went out of existence. To claim that something doesn't exist without proof of it ever having existed is a fallacy.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I see, you're a fond member of the "proving negatives" society? War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 20, 2004, 03:54 pm	#227 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	I've already stated this, but i suppose i can repeat it since it's important. In order to prove that something is NOT true (false), you need only one example that is inconsistant with the original assertion. If there is no proof that the "thing" in the original assertion ever existed, then you can't prove that it doesn't exist because there are NO examples that are inconsistant with the assertion.

Feb 20, 2004, 04:15 pm	#228 (permalink) (top)
PaulOtt Sedimentary Rock Location: Tennessee Posts: 13	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,) Ah but we've got no evidence that pink elephants DO exist do we now then? I could've used an example of anything that did not exist. So now we go back to square one, God cannot be detected by scientific method, yes? Then I can disregard God as far with logic and reasoning.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>The point was, it is only relevent if your example has qualities that would not make it a suitable candidate for using the scientific method. It is not logic, and it is not reasoning, to try to require the subject to pass a test when it is obvious the test does not apply. Just as you should not try to use your nose to hear sounds, neither should you try to use the scientific method to detect God. Or, can you logically defend your implication as to why God should choose to reveal Himself through impersonal, controlled, repeatable, man-made-up experiments? Why do you believe this? <span style='font-family:Verdana'><span style='color:purple'><span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>God lives.</span></span></span> <span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'>--------------------</span>

Feb 20, 2004, 07:53 pm	#229 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	Paul, here is a question for you: what would bet he ultimate way for someone to control the world? I have an idea...... make them think that you created the world and make them think that they can only be saved from hell if they believe in you and do exactly as you say. Remind you of anything? Are you aware that their is a theory that the dead sea scrolls and all organized religon today was convieved by Satan to control the people of the world? I mean... what better way to get everyone to believe in you by making them think that you're god?So who knows, perhaps you're really going to church for Satan. Maybe God just wants you to live your lives any way that you want. Perhaps God's big purpose for our lives is simply to live... and when you die...you die. A bit grim...but so too is the nature of the universe.

Feb 21, 2004, 12:34 am	#230 (permalink) (top)
Poetic_Justice Igneous Magma Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 209	There's also a theory that we are all figments of some guy's imagination... and a theory that there is no such thing as the material, everything is merely mental... somehow, I don't believe either.. Satan is incapable of inducing love, therefore the bible cannot be his instrument... Now really, lets leave the wild theories conceived by the deranged and enraged out of this

Feb 21, 2004, 01:09 am	#231 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	Sat is incapable of love? You read this from the bible didn't you? See my above argument.

Feb 21, 2004, 01:44 am	#232 (permalink) (top)
Poetic_Justice Igneous Magma Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 209	the idea of Satan, as a definition is that he is incapable of love saying Satan can promote love, is like saying a circle can be square... one has to change the whole definition of the circle in order to make it logical... just as it is with saying Satan can show or promote love...

Feb 21, 2004, 04:20 am	#233 (permalink) (top)
libertyminded Molten Ash Location: Seattle, Washington USA Posts: 69	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by How can anyone say that Abraham and the three religions he spawned are any less a product of social systems naturally creating a belief system then the religions of the Hindu, Shinto, Druids, Native Americans? You can't. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why can't I?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Okay, let me rephrase this. What reasons do you have for accepting Proestant Christianity as any more or less valid than any other major religion? "Any man willing to trade freedom for security deserves neither." -Benjamin Franklin

Feb 21, 2004, 09:45 am	#234 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	if satan is incapable of love, god has no justification for keeping him in hell... think about it... if satan chooses not to love god then hell is an appropriate outcome, but if satan does not have the power to love god, then god has created an individual simply to torture in hell... bow at the temple of the torturing tyrant... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 21, 2004, 12:05 pm	#235 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	I thought the reason that Satan was cast to hell was he loved himself more than god...or something like that. Besides...you still didn't answer me where you got these "facts" about satan....the bible? Yeah...and if the bible was written by satan he could have made all that stuff up so you wouldn't suspect he was the one who wrote it and not god.

Feb 21, 2004, 01:35 pm	#236 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,609	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PaulOtt,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,) Ah but we've got no evidence that pink elephants DO exist do we now then? I could've used an example of anything that did not exist. So now we go back to square one, God cannot be detected by scientific method, yes? Then I can disregard God as far with logic and reasoning.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>The point was, it is only relevent if your example has qualities that would not make it a suitable candidate for using the scientific method. It is not logic, and it is not reasoning, to try to require the subject to pass a test when it is obvious the test does not apply. Just as you should not try to use your nose to hear sounds, neither should you try to use the scientific method to detect God. Or, can you logically defend your implication as to why God should choose to reveal Himself through impersonal, controlled, repeatable, man-made-up experiments? Why do you believe this?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Maybe I should've mentioned this pink elephant is invisible, and will only appear to it's believers. nods From your analogy of nose to sound, that's just means I'm using the wrong equipment, so what should I be using instead? Enlighten us. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 23, 2004, 04:46 pm	#238 (permalink) (top)
Spyder Jerusalem Molten Ash Location: The City, scoring dope. Posts: 31	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PaulOtt,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,) From your point of view, it's a futile argument, so you can keep your blind faith and I'll keep to logic and reason. Now we're all happy.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>It would appear that we both keep our faith in our ways of perceiving the world. Claiming that God does not exist, should He choose to not fulfill the requirements of the scientific method, is not logical, however.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Now that's just stupid, man! It is infinitely logical to deny the existence of something for which NO proof exists. In fact, it is what we call "common sense". There are 15' tall purple carnivorous bunny rabits on the moon building ships to come and harvest human meat! Prove there aren't! Isn't the belief in the ridiculous just that much more stupid when tthere is no proof? Thought so! Bonehead! "A Kenyan man once said to me, 'You can get used to anything when money's involved.' He used to stick mice up his ass for twenty bucks a time."

Feb 23, 2004, 04:50 pm	#239 (permalink) (top)
Spyder Jerusalem Molten Ash Location: The City, scoring dope. Posts: 31	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (ethyl,) Something very interesting is going to happen soon. First I must explain. When an atheist states he/she does not believe in God. First premise - there is a God - it's just that she/he does not believe in "it." Does that make sense to anyone? Okay, so with that out of the way. We are on the threshold of one of the biggest outpouring of the Holy Spirit in several hundred years. Folks will be walking around saying, "can I get that too." Trust me (smile) I do know. If you want more info let me know. My field is Bible research.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Ummmmm, nope, wrongo, babe. The christers superstitious "faith" is DYING! Just like every other religion on the planet has. It will descend to the realm of mythology and superstition. Where it belongs! Oh, and the field of "bible research" will be relegated to other pseudo-sciences like the Flat-Earthers and the Intelligent Designers. Bullshit, plain and simple. I suggest finding a new career. Perhaps mythologist? "A Kenyan man once said to me, 'You can get used to anything when money's involved.' He used to stick mice up his ass for twenty bucks a time."

Feb 23, 2004, 04:56 pm	#240 (permalink) (top)
Automatic Nate Molten Ash Location: Bogart, GA, USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Spyder Jerusalem,) The christers superstitious "faith" is DYING! Just like every other religion on the planet has. It will descend to the realm of mythology and superstition. Where it belongs!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Didn't Fritz Nietzsche say things along those lines around a hundred years ago? Yet in Africa alone, 10 million Xtns have become 360 million Xtns in that span of time. But that's just statistics. "For neither Man nor Angel can discern Hypocrisie, The only evil that walks Invisible, except to God" --Paradise Lost