Bill Maher: Religion neurological disorder

[Gorgo]

The one who no longer exists and whose name will not be mentioned said that I could not live up to the morals prescribed by the Bible. I instructed him in what the Bible's morality was. It's not a question of what I forgive.

Quote by: jeffl If you can't forgive the Bible its contemporary perspective then reasonable discussion is not possible

[Gorgo]

You are contradicting yourself here. Life does not have meaning (worth) as it is, so we need to add something to it. No matter that what that really means is that life is still pretty much worthless, except as some kind of attachment to something else that we made up ourselves. .

Quote by: jeffl don't think it was so much life not being good, but that it ends. People could see in the structure of the specialization a perpetuity that gave them a greater sense of meaning.

[jeffl]

Quote by: Gorgo Certainly there is a need for information, but there is no biological need to change from speculation to dogma.

Actually, dogma is quicker; so it can conceivably confer a survival advantage. Then again, there is the rare occasion where the knee-jerk response is damaging; hence cycles of contingency, specialization, etc.

That comes from someone's need to feel superior in some way. Either the priest that convinces others that only he has the answers to someone who thinks their tribe is better than others.

I think there's the 'joy' of lording it over, and the 'anguish' of being lorded over; and they both stem from arrogance.

It is about the attempt to gain self-worth or maintain some idea of self-worth that that sort of thing is done.

Everyone wants to feel of worth, worthy. Some people do it by making others feel worthless; and that's just wrong.

[Gorgo]

Actually, as Albert Ellis tells us, worth is an irrelevant thing. There is nothing to give us worth, outside ourselves. I think once we unlearn the need to gain this false superiority, then we lose the need for fantasy.

Quote by: jeffl Everyone wants to feel of worth, worthy. Some people do it by making others feel worthless; and that's just wrong.

[jeffl]

Quote by: Gorgo You are contradicting yourself here.

Maybe so; please, lets take some time

Life does not have meaning (worth) as it is, so we need to add something to it.

'Meaning' is a special word; how do we talk about what it means? I think i have four basic words; 'meaning,' 'truth,' 'beauty,' and 'justice.' They form, like, a kernal; how i define those four in one is like my philosophers stone.

No matter that what that really means is that life is still pretty much worthless, except as some kind of attachment to something else that we made up ourselves. .

Well, clearly we disagree. Maybe if you describe how you understand 'meaning.' i could go first, but recent experience suggest that not to be a viable course of action.

[jeffl]

Quote by: Gorgo Actually, as Albert Ellis tells us, worth is an irrelevant thing.

Who is Albert Ellis, and why should i take his word over yours?

There is nothing to give us worth, outside ourselves.

This is a misleading and divisive statement. We must acknowledge that we are part of a structure; unless you would have us give up the niceties and go live in a cave

I think once we unlearn the need to gain this false superiority, then we lose the need for fantasy.

OK, lets unlearn meaning. You go first:)

[Gorgo]

We are part of a structure, and we need that structure. But beyond that, we cannot get worth from outside of ourselves. While what others think of us is important we need to know that the concept of self-worth is irrelevant.

Quote by: jeffl This is a misleading and divisive statement. We must acknowledge that we are part of a structure; unless you would have us give up the niceties and go live in a cave

[jeffl]

Quote by: Gorgo We are part of a structure, and we need that structure. But beyond that, we cannot get worth from outside of ourselves.

But look how far you have to go to get 'beyond that.' And why would there be meaning outside of its context?

While what others think of us is important we need to know that the concept of self-worth is irrelevant.

Politics is where people gain self-worth from what other people think (maybe glial cells are neural politicians?). Scientists and philosophers gain a feeling of self-worth when they feel they've acquired a more accurate perspective; and in my mind they are more worthy if they can communicate that movement and aid others in acquiring a more accurate perspective for themselves. Self-worth is irrelivant when one is persuing 'pleromatic' material truth, as physical scientists do; hence, it is commendable for a scientist or a philosopher to be able to detach themselves from their personal compulsions. And 'beyond that,' if there is a universal harmony we should be adhering to but for some reason we are not; then it may be the purpose, the worth, and the meaning of human consciousness to get us back to the garden.

And as far as neurological disorders are concerned, they are more likely if you remove an individuals feeling of self-worth; so you'd best be sure before you present it as your recommended course of action. I understand that neural harmony can be achieved when semantic conflict is overcome, and that an easy way to do this is to focus on Nothing; as a result, i believe, there is a belief that Nothing is better than Truth. But Truth is just as good at achieving neural harmony, it's just alot, ALOT, more obscure; and afterword the Truth tells you things.

[Gorgo]

I don't know what pleromatic is, but I disagree with your whole premise. People do not get self-worth from anything but their beliefs about themselves. Once you lose the need for self-worth, you lose the need to be overly emotionally attached to outcomes and therefore lose the need for mental disorders.

I said that people need people. That is true. If everyone rejects me in every way I cannot live. But I do not need to "feel self-worth."

[Gorgo]

I don't know what you mean by "Truth" with a capital 't.' If you mean things like what happens when an object falls at a certain speed, yes, reality is best. Beliefs do not help you get to reality, however.

Quote by: jeffl Nothing is better than Truth

[jeffl]

Quote by: Gorgo If everyone rejects me in every way I cannot live.

Do you mean you cannot physically reproduce? Could you also mean that you could not modify your culture's informational content in some beneficial manner, or build something that might influence the evolution of your culture; so that you might live by word or deed independant of biological product?

[Gorgo]

Sorry, Jeff, I can't translate most of that. What I mean is that without other members of society, I don't live very long. If they don't interact with me, I don't survive.

[jeffl]

Quote by: Gorgo If they don't interact with me, I don't survive.

I guess that what i'm trying to get at is that, i don't think i could survive consciously in an Orwellian '1984' sort of fashion. My body could survive, but i myself would likely be psychically dismantled. So, when you say 'survive' i wonder if you mean conscious as well as physical survival?

[Gorgo]

I mean if I went to a grocery store and they wouldn't serve me, or if I tried to walk on the highway and they told me to go home, etc. It isn't easy to live without the cooperation of others. I probably would not survive.

[DigitalDjigit]

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