CHRISTIANITY VS ISLAM a struggle for theistic ideology...and the mind of God

[MerlinsByte]

CHRISTIANITY VS ISLAM a struggle for theistic ideology...and the mind of God




The worlds destiny is pivotal upon the next passages. We left an intensely subliming rivalry boiling between Ishmael and Isaac.

Despite being of plain birth (with no promise of cosmic greatness) Ishmael had prospered fathering a great multi nation kingdom on the Arabian peninsula. According to the bible God assisted Ishmael in this endeavor.

The knife of contention still twisted inside of Ishmael and his descendants, because his sibling and arch rival Isaac's, and his descendants (Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Gideon, and David), were bequeathed the full inheritance of Abraham.

Why Isaac and not Ishmael? The bible hints that the level of FAITH(1) was greatest and the bloodline of. Isaac was divine (c.) This birth of the promise was necessary to bring the manifest destiny of gods plan for the earth into fruition.

I feel that Ishmael and the people of his time had a mystic conduit and a sensitivity to the universe and to space time that we can only dream of now. It was a natural product of these people being of superior genetic make (e) up. Also , the after glow of gods (the intelligent designer of this universe or ID) supernatural influence (f) was much brighter then than it is today.

Our built in genetic obsolescence blinds us to our natural universe, and God. We use our energy for suspicious secular notions, and that weakens us spiritually. We are eons removed from understanding the universe as it actually is….oops I’m digressing (again)!

This searing resentment, and the titanic jealousies that have resulted, have festered for over 2000 years, and have created wars, atrocities (born of ignorance) , that have no equal in history. The title deed to Israel that God promised to Abraham's and thus Isaac's (g) lineage have been the major catalyst in this orgy of historical hate and the discontenting failure of the tow religions to merge.

The Muslims suspect that the Jews changed and distorted the bible in order to install themselves as the only heir to Abraham According to my and many more learned than I scholars, research, there is no evidence to support this accusation. However I remain open to new texts and new information on this timeless and chaotic subject. As it stands today the texts clearly teaches that a Covent was made expressly to Isaac and his descendants alone.


End of part two


I know, I know, I said two parts but this thing is more difficult to encapsulate than I had imagine promise that I will finish in pt 3!


mb05

[Lilith]

Merlin,

This was an interesting post. But what are you exactly trying to say here? I'm not sure how this covenant between Isaac, Ishamal, God and whoever is really relevant? I don't know maybe I'm just confused. Well I think I'm always confused...lol.

But from the title of your thread here...I'm gathering this is something about the *warfare* between Chirstianity and Islam....??? Basically, who's religion is the right one? Who interperts the *word* of *God* correctly?? Is that it?

Would I be correct in saying that the reason that Jews, and Muslims reject Chrisitianity is because basically Christianity is the belief that Jesus was the *divine* son of God, born of a virgin, sinless, come down to save humanity....etc. And they don't believe that. To them he was a human prophet preaching his message.

So help me out here, Merlin. I really like reading your posts, but sometimes I get lost in them. I'm trying to understand what you are saying. So please forgive me if I'm a little slow.

[Mia]

Quote by: MerlinsByte CHRISTIANITY VS ISLAM a struggle for theistic ideology...and the mind of God The worlds destiny is pivotal upon the next passages. We left an intensely subliming rivalry boiling between Ishmael and Isaac. Despite being of plain birth (with no promise of cosmic greatness) Ishmael had prospered fathering a great multi nation kingdom on the Arabian peninsula. According to the bible God assisted Ishmael in this endeavor. The knife of contention still twisted inside of Ishmael and his descendants, because his sibling and arch rival Isaac's, and his descendants (Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Gideon, and David), were bequeathed the full inheritance of Abraham. Why Isaac and not Ishmael? The bible hints that the level of FAITH(1) was greatest and the bloodline of. Isaac was divine (c.) This birth of the promise was necessary to bring the manifest destiny of gods plan for the earth into fruition. I feel that Ishmael and the people of his time had a mystic conduit and a sensitivity to the universe and to space time that we can only dream of now. It was a natural product of these people being of superior genetic make (e) up. Also , the after glow of gods (the intelligent designer of this universe or ID) supernatural influence (f) was much brighter then than it is today. Our built in genetic obsolescence blinds us to our natural universe, and God. We use our energy for suspicious secular notions, and that weakens us spiritually. We are eons removed from understanding the universe as it actually is….oops I’m digressing (again)! This searing resentment, and the titanic jealousies that have resulted, have festered for over 2000 years, and have created wars, atrocities (born of ignorance) , that have no equal in history. The title deed to Israel that God promised to Abraham's and thus Isaac's (g) lineage have been the major catalyst in this orgy of historical hate and the discontenting failure of the tow religions to merge. The Muslims suspect that the Jews changed and distorted the bible in order to install themselves as the only heir to Abraham According to my and many more learned than I scholars, research, there is no evidence to support this accusation. However I remain open to new texts and new information on this timeless and chaotic subject. As it stands today the texts clearly teaches that a Covent was made expressly to Isaac and his descendants alone. End of part two I know, I know, I said two parts but this thing is more difficult to encapsulate than I had imagine promise that I will finish in pt 3! mb05

Do I have my memory twisted around? Ismael was born of the servent woman when Sara couldn't conceive, then she cast him out when Issac was born, but Ismael WAS promised a great nation by God.

[Lilith]

I want to be promised a great nation!

And another part of this title to this thread..."and the mind of God"...how does one struggle for supremacy over the mind of *God*?

[PatrickHenry]

Isaac had two sons as well: Esau and Jacob. Interesting to me is the unvarnished nature of the personalities in the Biblical text. Abraham was a deceiver as well as a man of faith: Genesis 12:11-20.
Jacob's name even connotes deceiver and he cheated his brother of his blessing and his birthright. But the Esau line would be an inheritor of Abraham and Isaac's blessing, would it not? The Arabs are descended from Ishmael and Esau. But Islam is not equivalent to the Arabs in the same way that Judaism is equivalent to Jews. And Zionism is not the equivalent of true Torah Judaism either.

[Rod]

Im still with the second posted, I agree to what he said and restate, I don't understand the topic nore how the tittles relates to your post.

[Nabeel Saiyer]

Sorry, I disagree. There is no struggle between Christianity and Islam. Firstly, in the Quran there are specific instructions for Mulims stating that there is NO compulsion in Religion. Secondly Christains and Jews have lived in Harmony with muslims under the Caliphate for 1400 years, unitil 3rd March 1924 (When the Islamic State was destroyed).

The correct topic of discussion would be "CAPITALISM VS ISLAM a struggle of ideology." Hence today we witnes the War on Terror, an dthe deamonising of Islam and Muslims, just like we saw the demonising of Communints at the time of USSR, and witnesed the Cold War.

[Samildanach]

When God gives you something physical like a kingdom, ie he pops down out of the clouds and goes see that...its yours.....is faith even an issue? How hard is it to have faith in someone standing in front of you? You wouldnt need faith, hes right there. So whatever his name was having stronger faith...faith in what? the guy dressed in white with a white beard standing in front of them both?

[alex]

I disagree with the poster above who says there is no conflict between Islam and Christianity, but not in the way you think. There is a conflict between Islam and the non-Islamic world. Islam, like Judaism, is a continually evolving religion (whereas Christianity has remained more or less static). Just as Rabbis theorize about God, and rabbinic texts augment the original texts, Imams and Mullahs offer their own philosophy. Islamic scholars publish texts, such as 'Fi zilal al-Quran', by Sayyid Qutb. I mention this text in specific because of the nature of the book and the author. Qutb believes, and has published his belief that because God is the sovereign power of Earth, no human government except a Caliphate can be considerered sovereign over a people.

And this post does not even address Wahhabism.

Islam is facing a problem. The problem, unfortunately, is that muslims are becoming less relevant to the world. Some seek to change this by radical means, such as killing thousands of people (or, hey, just blowing up a humvee). Forcing their relevance upon others. However, as countries like Indonesia and Iran continue to wither while other nations (such as Singapore and Jordan) countries thrive and grow, nations which are openly and stringently Islamic become less relevant to the world.

The days of the Ottoman Empire are over. There is no Islamic superpower, no Islamic conquering nation, and there is little possibility of one emerging. The biggest kids on the block are the EU, the US, China, and India. There's not a lot of room for anyone else. The only real relevance (and I hate to say it) is OPEC. However, I feel that the Arabs (and not all arabs are muslims) have miscalculated. There will come a time when petro-fuel is not as necessary as it is today. When Saudi Arabia and other oil exporting countries lose the stranglehold they have on the world with the oil market, they will have lost everything. There is nothing in their country but dirt. They teach their citizens nothing but the Quran. Islam, folks, is waning, and has been for 600 years.

That is what puts it into direct conflict with the rest of the world. They're pretty unhappy about it, and some of them are just nuts enough to strap bombs to themselves or fly planes into buildings. Just wait. One day, somebody (probably Pakistan or Iran) will be irritated enough about the lack of attention they're getting from the world, and they'll pop off a nuke. Seems plausible enough to me. Those kooks who wrote the "Left Behind" books started the apocalypse this way. Israel gets nuked, God intervenes, Rapture, blah, blah, blah. But, again, I digress.

[Logjam]

I never read the Bible. I just can't get into it. But I'm not opposed to those who read it. Nor am I opposed to those who believe that it's Word is gospel.

Furthermore I don't agree with those who say the Bible is bunk. How can they know? Well, they can't.....they are only guessing, just as I am.

I therefore, accept all religions as valid; at least on some level. Whose to say that God doesn't support them all? Maybe the guy has a sense of humor? Or maybe he doesn't care what we do/think.

No matter what any of us think or believe it has no effect upon what's really true. What is, is; and whether we understand it or not is irrelevant.

I, for one; hope that there is an afterlife. There are some people I'd like to finish my conversations with.

[Nabeel Saiyer]

Alex, you have mentioned too many points, and it is apparent in your post that you are probably no less charged with your beliief as a "Mad Mullah" who rants and raves against the non muslim world.

Many poits you mentioned, I agree with....simply put the countries and the areas you mentioned are not implmeting Islam, rather are implementing Capitaism under the disguise of Islam...some of these places have more eepr rooted love for their belief, and will go to any extent to fulfil their cause (not endoring it) Just like the Kamakazi heroes of Japan who fought against the US invasion.....Woudl I be wrong to suggest that if during the cold war USSR had got into a war with the US, and the US had no real military might to repel the enemy, or the US government was not willing to repel the enemy, would you my friend not be wiling to sacrifice your life so that the future generations could live in freedom as opposed to a communist system???

The confusion that arises many at times is that whan ever an Islamic system is menioned people refer to Iran, Saudi Arabia and the likes.

Today the entire world is suffering due to the foreign policy of these very "Civilised" countries. Why is it that all of a sudden 70% of Argentinian population went unemployed, why is it that US patenting Laws do not allow India to supply AIDS medication to Africa at 1/3 of the price that US pharmeceutical coutries would charge.

Once the caliphate re-emerges, the muslims would help the NON muslims of Argentina, and the non muslim victims of Africa, because the Quran commnads us. Why is it that under the time of the Islamic State Africa was known as the Golden Nugget of the worl, and under the current Capitalist domination over the world the same continent is known, and I quote Jack Starw "Black Scar on the face of the earth." When muslims went abroad they learnt various inventions and shared with the world to benefit the populace, i.e. Universities, Hospitals, Sewage Systems, etc etc. When the British Empire went abroad it stole the riches to fill her own Cofers, e,g, Kohi Noor Jewel Still to be found in the Queen's Crown.

Point I was making Islam and Christianity do not have aclash, it is the Capitalist Ideology that is clashing and not allowing the re-emergence of Islam as an ideology.

[MerlinsByte]

By Liltith So help me out here, Merlin. I really like reading your posts, but sometimes I get lost in them. I'm trying to understand what you are saying. So please forgive me if I'm a little slow.

Merlin sez....Allow me to apologize for my ponderous around the world writing style to make a point! I admire you and the others here that have the patience and courage to delve in to my murky and sometimes unfathomable writings.

I'm not sure how this covenant between Isaac, Ishmael, God and whoever is really relevant?

Merlin replies..... The bone of contention between Islam and Christianity is that Isaac being of prophesized or divine birth is lavished upon by none other than god and to a lesser extent his parents.Ishnmael was not in the grand covenant as it applies to gods chosen people.
Ishmael, the scripture indicates is a jealous (who wouldn’t be?) and not of divine birth, is the red headed stepchild of this family affair.

But from the title of your thread here...I'm gathering this is something about the *warfare* between Chirstianity and Islam....??? Basically, who's religion is the right one? Who interperts the *word* of *God* correctly?? Is that it?

Merlin sez....The Koran and the bible differentiates somwhat, and the koran is a later document (collection of texts) , so yes this is whats at stake, and so many have died for this simple concept

.And the warfare...I feel that there is a titanic warfare going on between Islam and Christianity and between the darkness and the light,(not that Isalm is the darkness pre se) and other factions that have a vested interest in earth and mankind. The real warfare is being waged on the spiritual plane. I am writing a post on that now. But the beastie post seems to grow each time I do battle with it. Its damn near a book! I hope to pare it down to a one or two paragraph post, hitting at least the high points.....

Would I be correct in saying that the reason that Jews, and Muslims reject Chrisitianity is because basically Christianity is the belief that Jesus was the *divine* son of God, born of a virgin, sinless, come down to save humanity....etc. And they don't believe that. To them he was a human prophet preaching his message.

merlin sez ........yes but that is only a fraction of the true nature of the dispute, I am certainly no theistic scholar, and have my own views, but you are not wrong in what you have said.

I am a Christian ,but far from a traditional Christian. That said I have some doubt of the nature of Jesus' birth. However I have no problem In believing that this being was a true man God (unlike the fully human Pharaos of dynastic Egypt)and was endowed with supernatural abilities or came from an advanced civilization.

Its profound a thought really, that one would be willing to die for such a being or religious concept such as a faith based deistic system. I would die for my beliefs such as not receiving the soon to come mark of the beast.Profound indeed.

So, yes you are correct in de-encrypting my sometimes unintentional cryptic thinking...(see what I mean?)and again thanks for your open mind.

[alex]

Quote by: Nabeel Saiyer Alex, you have mentioned too many points, and it is apparent in your post that you are probably no less charged with your beliief as a "Mad Mullah" who rants and raves against the non muslim world.

I am agnostic. Or pantheistic, depending on my mood, I suppose. And libertarian. I believe wholeheartedly in capitalism. I don't have a problem with the rich getting richer, because I desire those things for myself. I don't have a problem with the poor and downtrodden being poor and downtrodden because there are means for them to propel themselves out of there. Currency is a great equalizer in a capitalist society. It means that anyone has the same amount of power to affect change. However, that is limited by their ability to accrue currency. Since there is no inherent "ability to accrue currency", we are all equally capable of doing so.

Marx believed that if the rich had money, they must have taken it from the poor. This is bad logic, and is based on a lack of understanding of an economy. You seem to share this lack of understanding.

Woudl I be wrong to suggest that if during the cold war USSR had got into a war with the US, and the US had no real military might to repel the enemy, or the US government was not willing to repel the enemy, would you my friend not be wiling to sacrifice your life so that the future generations could live in freedom as opposed to a communist system???

Sure. But this is entirely irrelevant. We're not talking about a great nation, like Iraq, where a miliitary decided to not defend its country. We are talking about a below-mediocre nation (Iraq), with a destitute populace, being smashed to pieces by a larger aggressor (the US), and then reconstructed by that same aggressor, in its image. This is how modern democracies work.

Today the entire world is suffering due to the foreign policy of these very "Civilised" countries. Why is it that all of a sudden 70% of Argentinian population went unemployed, why is it that US patenting Laws do not allow India to supply AIDS medication to Africa at 1/3 of the price that US pharmeceutical coutries would charge.

Irrelevant. What has this got to do with islam or christianity? India, you may recall, is a hindu country.

Once the caliphate re-emerges,

There can be no legitimate future caliphate. The last Caliph was Abd-ul-Hamid II, who ceded the Caliphate to the parliament of what became Turkey. If the parliament of Turkey, which no longer refers to itself as a Caliphate, decides that, for example, their next leader is Caliph, I might buy that. But it just won't happen. And it would most likely be declared illegitimate by nations such as Saudi Arabia and Iran who would prefer to have one of their own people declared Caliph.

the muslims would help the NON muslims of Argentina, and the non muslim victims of

Contemporary muslims have a history of NOT helping non-muslims. The USS Abraham Lincoln left Indonesia because the government would not allow it to provide aid to the survivors of the 12/26 tsunami.

Africa, because the Quran commnads us. Why is it that under the time of the Islamic State Africa was known as the Golden Nugget of the worl, and under the current Capitalist domination over the world the same continent is known, and I quote Jack Starw "Black Scar on the face of the earth." When muslims went abroad they learnt various inventions

There's really only one response to the notion of an islamicized Africa: "Janjaweed."

Point I was making Islam and Christianity do not have aclash, it is the Capitalist Ideology that is clashing and not allowing the re-emergence of Islam as an ideology.

So get to the point. Are you promoting marxism, islamism, a caliphate, or the downfall of western civilization due to its "oppressing" of the rest of the world? Surely you can't be trying to make all those points at once.

Alex

[Lilith]

I have never read the Bible all the way thru either...can't get into it...but I have read parts of it and looked up different passages. I think the Bible should be used kind of like a guidebook, because it does have alot in it about how to be a decent person and "treat other's how you want to be treated"....that kind of thing. But to take alot of the stories, poems, etc. in it as "literal" truth and "unerrant" word of God...well now...that's a little silly to me.

Thank you, Merlin for taking the time to explain what you were trying to get across in your first post...now I understand a little better what you are trying to say.
Here's a little tidbit that I think sums up the whole battle between Christianity and Islam fiasco:
"Since noone really knows anything about God,
those who think they do are just
troublemakers."

And I thought of you when I reread this poem, Merlin,
"So
precious
is a person's faith in God
so precious;

never should we harm
that.

Because
he gave birth
to all

religions."
:)

[Logjam]

Quote by: Nabeel Saiyer Sorry, I disagree. There is no struggle between Christianity and Islam. Firstly, in the Quran there are specific instructions for Mulims stating that there is NO compulsion in Religion. Secondly Christains and Jews have lived in Harmony with muslims under the Caliphate for 1400 years, unitil 3rd March 1924 (When the Islamic State was destroyed). The correct topic of discussion would be "CAPITALISM VS ISLAM a struggle of ideology." Hence today we witnes the War on Terror, an dthe deamonising of Islam and Muslims, just like we saw the demonising of Communints at the time of USSR, and witnesed the Cold War.

I don't know how one can say that the conflict is between "capitalism vs Islam". Islam, obviously is a religion and capitalism is an economic system. They are truely, apples and oranges.

Furthermore there isn't any conflict between us and Islam. The conflict is between us and radical Islamists. Or better stated: Islamofascists. All conflict would disappear if terrorism ended.

Nor would there be any conflict between Israel and the Palestinians if Hammas stopped supporting terrorism. All those folks have to do is to decide to get along.

Sound simplistic? Sure it is, but you know what; lots of conflicts can be simplistically solved.

[Paul]

President Bush, a member of the Apostale United Methodists, has often publically stated, "ISLAM IS A PEACEFUL AND CARING GREAT RELIGION" and "THE CHRISTIAN GOD AND THE GOD OF ISLAM IS THE SAME GOD."

I guess it doesn't matter which of the two religions you pick, they have the same God according to GW. Bush.

Peace be with you, Paul

[Nabeel Saiyer]

I will try to stick to the underlying point, as pointed out by Alex. Anyone opposed to Capitalism, is not by default promoting communism. Islam, was for 1400 a system of ruling, which had its own Economic System, Social System, and Foreign Policy. If this dialogue was being entertained by socialists they would be stating that I was a propogating Adam Smiths thinking???