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MerlinsByte · Mar 18, 2005, 06:11 am

Quote:

Merlin ....Prejudice comes from fear and insecurity. If one isn't secure in their core beliefs they must lash out at any views that differ than their own shaky beliefs. Everything centers on these two emotions or are a manifestation of them.

To expound on this as it relates to Islam and Christianity ... the discussion of religions here in this forum seem to center on the teachings of Islam vs. Christianity.

Islam is called the sister religion of Christianity, this is not an inaccurate analogy. Islam proponents tell us that the Qur’an or Koran is an updated version of the book of texts that we call the bible. Therefore Christians should come to Islam as its an updated and more accurate religion or newer religion than Christianity.

The debate is much deeper than this, or minor translation errors (in the bible vs. the Koran).

Many contemporary authors gloss over the key points of contention. I don't know if its ignorance or a determined exercise in misinformation or a more sinister manifestation of both!

It all started in a land and time in the distant past…(Sounds like the prologue to the star wars movie..In a galaxy far far away .....) mmm...

The entire misunderstanding centers on a conflict between the two sons of Abraham, (1)Isaac (divine) and(2) Ishmael. (of the flesh). (1) Christianity & (2) Islam.

Conflict between these two sons of Abraham began from the very start. In (Genesis, chapter 21:9), the conflict began just after Isaac was weaned: "Now Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, mocking."

Ishmael (now at least 13 years of age) was mocking the infant Isaac . Why? Ishmael was insecure (remember the topic? or why are we prejudice? because it equals insecurity!) , he was "born according to the flesh" and Isaac had been "born according to the promise" (Galatians: 4). The much younger Isaac was the favorite son and made the heir of Abraham.

This dealt a serious blow to the older brother and planted the seeds of future wars , horrible strife and conflict, If god had revealed the historical conquenses of this bitterness I have no doubt that they would have reconciled! This of course was not the case and Ishmael was so bitter and combative that Sarah demanded that Ishmael and his Egyptian concubine mother, Hagar, be expelled permanently from Abraham's family.

God forbade this and promised that Ishmael would father twelve princes who would become a powerful nation, and this nation became associated with the Midianites Egyptians and Assyrians on what is known today as the Arabian Peninsula. The Bible and Islamic tradition both agree that Ishmael became the leader of all the great desert peoples of the Middle East.

End of part one (one of two)

Christianity and Islam are just about to have a crisis and in part two I will illustrate how Isaacs lack of Faith (a) and his pathological jealously lent credence in splitting these two mighty religions into the fractured and opposed forces that they are to this day.

mb05

merlinsbyte 05

**Matt W** · Mar 18, 2005, 08:37 am

Ummm...would you mind starting a new thread? It's pretty much a subject for discussion in itself.

MerlinsByte · Mar 18, 2005, 08:42 am

Quote:

Quote by: Matt W

Ummm...would you mind starting a new thread? It's pretty much a subject for discussion in itself.

thats cool wit me.....see pt 2 under CRISTINATY VS ISLAM a struggle for thesistic ideology...

but it does explain this threads "question"....

mb

walton · Mar 18, 2005, 10:50 am

Inquisitor,

In reply to your posted counters to some of my points

Your interpretation in( 1.) aligns more with the view gem described than it does the view of either the Hebrew.
(see Isaiah 12:14 et seq) "Oh shining star, son of the morning, how you have fallen from the heavens! You weaking the nations, you are cut down to the ground. For you have said in your heart I will go up to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God and I will sit in the mount of meeting .... I will be compared to the ..... They that see you ask.... is this the man who made the earth tremble .....
Or the view of the Christians from early on.

Your (3) dismissing the significance of the same planet (wandering star) in different languages makes no sense. If language were such a barrier, the ensigns SPQR would have been allowed in Jerusalem during the temple period. Nor is your name example of any use here. The point is not that a word or words in one language sound like words with very different meanings in another language. No. As in Isaiah 14 I just mentioned, the same star has significance to Hebrews in their religious texts that doesn't comport with you sunny view, unless you add the possibility gem mentions. Origen has legs. You don't.

Your point (2) Is a general claim that you have knowledge and critical ability of a level above that which you have demonstrated. You clearly hadn't any interpretation of the 22:16 passage at all prior to this. Not interpretaion study would have left out the Lucifer connection. Isaiah is remarkable in that way.

And you fall short most by failing utterly to address the foundational problem. Our interpretation (Origen) says that there is a reason for Jesus identifying himself with a star that represents a fallen angel in Isaiah. That is, Jesus' favorite disciple, John, has just established a pattern of attempting to seduce an angel of God. Like Frankenstein, John could be said to be attempting to create a new Lucifer in Rev 19 and 22.

As gem, points out with Mar Zutra, a son of David has shown that it makes sense for the King to lower himself when his leadership or teaching is reflecting poorly in his subjects. Mar Zutra put the ban on himself. Jesus, for the same reason, appears to do the same. But this is not the end. In fact it is good news. But identifying himself as the fallen, Jesus indicates that his earlier prediction is true. Others of his followers will do greater teaching. John's problem can be dealt with. Origen, gem and many others can't resist helping solve the angel molestation problem in the church.

You remain absolutely silent on the central issue. How can Jesus be the Christ if he can't teach his closest student to worship God in heaven of all places?

Because I tell you the truth, you are silent. walton

Inquisitor's counters
However allow me to disagree with you interpretation for the following reasons:
1. Morning star in this chapter means end of darkness " rule of anti-Christ".
2. Any interpretation of The Book of Revelation is highly specialised area. I have read many interpretations of it and none supports the theory you so boldly put forward.
3. The fact that in some language something means different things is laughable.
For example, my family name sounds the same as the name of a certain game involving group sex. Does it mean that I invented or participated in that game? No it doesn't. So I suggest you look for the meaning of the words, not allerged meaning behind the words.

__________________
Jn 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.[b][u]

Mar 18, 2005, 08:37 am	#42 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 7,212	Ummm...would you mind starting a new thread? It's pretty much a subject for discussion in itself. I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Mar 18, 2005, 10:50 am	#44 (permalink) (top)
walton Molten Ash Posts: 51	Inquisitor, In reply to your posted counters to some of my points Your interpretation in( 1.) aligns more with the view gem described than it does the view of either the Hebrew. (see Isaiah 12:14 et seq) "Oh shining star, son of the morning, how you have fallen from the heavens! You weaking the nations, you are cut down to the ground. For you have said in your heart I will go up to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God and I will sit in the mount of meeting .... I will be compared to the ..... They that see you ask.... is this the man who made the earth tremble ..... Or the view of the Christians from early on. Your (3) dismissing the significance of the same planet (wandering star) in different languages makes no sense. If language were such a barrier, the ensigns SPQR would have been allowed in Jerusalem during the temple period. Nor is your name example of any use here. The point is not that a word or words in one language sound like words with very different meanings in another language. No. As in Isaiah 14 I just mentioned, the same star has significance to Hebrews in their religious texts that doesn't comport with you sunny view, unless you add the possibility gem mentions. Origen has legs. You don't. Your point (2) Is a general claim that you have knowledge and critical ability of a level above that which you have demonstrated. You clearly hadn't any interpretation of the 22:16 passage at all prior to this. Not interpretaion study would have left out the Lucifer connection. Isaiah is remarkable in that way. And you fall short most by failing utterly to address the foundational problem. Our interpretation (Origen) says that there is a reason for Jesus identifying himself with a star that represents a fallen angel in Isaiah. That is, Jesus' favorite disciple, John, has just established a pattern of attempting to seduce an angel of God. Like Frankenstein, John could be said to be attempting to create a new Lucifer in Rev 19 and 22. As gem, points out with Mar Zutra, a son of David has shown that it makes sense for the King to lower himself when his leadership or teaching is reflecting poorly in his subjects. Mar Zutra put the ban on himself. Jesus, for the same reason, appears to do the same. But this is not the end. In fact it is good news. But identifying himself as the fallen, Jesus indicates that his earlier prediction is true. Others of his followers will do greater teaching. John's problem can be dealt with. Origen, gem and many others can't resist helping solve the angel molestation problem in the church. You remain absolutely silent on the central issue. How can Jesus be the Christ if he can't teach his closest student to worship God in heaven of all places? Because I tell you the truth, you are silent. walton Inquisitor's counters However allow me to disagree with you interpretation for the following reasons: 1. Morning star in this chapter means end of darkness " rule of anti-Christ". 2. Any interpretation of The Book of Revelation is highly specialised area. I have read many interpretations of it and none supports the theory you so boldly put forward. 3. The fact that in some language something means different things is laughable. For example, my family name sounds the same as the name of a certain game involving group sex. Does it mean that I invented or participated in that game? No it doesn't. So I suggest you look for the meaning of the words, not allerged meaning behind the words. __________________ Jn 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.[b][u]