Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Plaything48 · Jan 27, 2004, 05:21 pm

I rule in favour of my topic title, but id be interested in what others have to say.

caspian88 · Jan 27, 2004, 07:10 pm

white rice · Jan 28, 2004, 03:50 am

Here's a pragmatic interpretation...

Fate is the prey to be hunted. I believe things are half destiny and half self-motivation. Some people would consider destiny and self determination as black and white, either you have it or you don't, but I believe that there are so many people in this world who think alike and aspire to be the same damn thing that if you don't claim your destiny, another person will. And who you are is largely determined by factors you can't control, like who your parents are, their socioeconomic status, and even your physical well being are determined by the environment. Nature vs Nurture, fate vs. self determination... all things a person can't definitely prove.

There are so many events in a person's life that defining moments are usually determined in hindsight or built up through risks and expectations. An optimist will usually lead a longer and happier life than a perssimist; recent studies have proven this practical fact.

So, does everything happen for a reason? Only if you want it to.

Impenitent · Jan 28, 2004, 01:17 pm

"No victor believes in fate"

Nietzsche

Ned · Jan 28, 2004, 01:51 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Plaything48,)
I rule in favour of my topic title, but id be interested in what others have to say.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I naturally assume that when you state that you believe that everything happens for a reason, that you believe in God. For God is the only reasonable explanation for purposeful intent behind the events in your life.

And since you obviously agree in this purposeful intent, then you must agree that your fate is predetermined, which necessarily entails that you have no free will and thus no responsibility for your actions.

If this sounds distasteful, then you have not thought through the implications of intent behind consequence.

I believe that as reasoning animals, we can find reason out of consequence, but I cannot believe in reason behind consequence. Free will allows for sin, which can lead to salvation (good behavior) or damination(further bad behavior). Free will allows for personal responsibility, without which, civilization would be impossible.

Plaything48 · Jan 29, 2004, 11:08 am

nah, you interpreted it wrong, I don't believe in God at all, he doesnt even come into this discussion.

Man Against Time · Jan 29, 2004, 11:54 am

...if it didnt have a reason for happening, how does it have a means to happen? If it has no means to happen, how can it happen at all?

Ned · Jan 29, 2004, 12:06 pm

Of course God enters into the question! You have stated that you believe that
everything happens for a reason. For this to be true, it is necessary for something (lets call it GOD) to be the initiator of the reason behind everything that happens.

Intent for action cannot exist in a vacume and I am sure that you and I are not the mastermind behind the intent. It is thus natural for me to assume that you believe in a 'God' with not only the intent, but the means by which to enforce that intent.

If you disagree with the above then you cannot believe that everything happens for a reason.

Ned · Jan 29, 2004, 12:12 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Man Against Time,)
...if it didnt have a reason for happening, how does it have a means to happen? If it has no means to happen, how can it happen at all?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Why must reason preceed means? This makes no sense. You assume that the universe is ruled by intent. So nothing can happen with out a reason?

PAAHHHHHH!

FC Mellon · Jan 29, 2004, 12:21 pm

I like 'Desiderata'..."the universe is unfolding as it should"
...though I do wonder about this concept a lot???
I look at life like a Kaleidoscope....what we witness is just the pieces falling into place to present us with a 'tremendous display' of 'images of reality'...but of course...we do get to have somewhat of an 'effect' on what we view...but maybe not what we would like to view...and maybe not as much('affect' that is) 8?)

Ned · Jan 29, 2004, 01:07 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (FC Mellon,)
I like 'Desiderata'..."the universe is unfolding as it should"
...though I do wonder about this concept a lot???
I look at life like a Kaleidoscope....what we witness is just the pieces falling into place to present us with a 'tremendous display' of 'images of reality'...but of course...we do get to have somewhat of an 'effect' on what we view...but maybe not what we would like to view...and maybe not as much('affect' that is) 8?)<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

With all your 'wondering' and 'maybe', I think you don't know what you think.
It sounds like you have a thought, and then decide that thought is dead-on, but as time allows that thought to roll around in your mind, you begin to doubt the certainty of you conviction and desperatly try to salvage the thought with amendments......Think it through before posting and then try to relay the thought with understandable script.

Man Against Time · Jan 29, 2004, 01:18 pm

Why must reason preceed means? This makes no sense. You assume that the universe is ruled by intent. So nothing can happen with out a reason?

Nope, nothing. For example, if a meteor hit me while i sat here, it is because I was sitting here, which is because I was curious about what posts have appeared since I logged in last. That is the reason for me being here. The meteor is here for astronomical reasons and reasons drawn from physical laws of falling bodies.

Nothing can happen if it didnt have a reason. That does not imply sone kind of moralistic subjective stamp though.

FC Mellon · Jan 29, 2004, 01:20 pm

Ned replies: "With all your 'wondering' and 'maybe', I think you don't know what you think."

...and I hope I will always have this about myself. I don't want to ever think I know 'everything' like some in the world who think they might have it all figured out. We each have our own way of viewing things..and we each have our own way of presenting things...and hopefully we are able to exchange these views with other without trying to dictate how everyone must adhere to another who may be wrong also.
I really do 'wonder' if 'maybe' another can understand what an 'other' might be trying to communicate. But I guess if one only has one way of looking at everything and determines for themselves..(but not necessarily for another) that..this is how things are and always will be because their method of interpreting life is 'set in concrete'..then I guess I will have a problem understanding their ways...and 'maybe' 'wonder' why I don't..'get it'.

Ned · Jan 29, 2004, 01:48 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (FC Mellon,)
..I don't want to ever think I know 'everything' like some in the world who think they might have it all figured out. We each have our own way of viewing things..and we each have our own way of presenting things...and hopefully we are able to exchange these views with other without trying to dictate how everyone must adhere to another who may be wrong also.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
[SIZE=3][font=Times]Your Nihilism has no effect on me!!![/font][/SIZE]
Civilization would not be possible without some consensus of thought.
And whats the point of searching for truth if you already come from a perspective that there is no truth?
At some point one has to take in the totality of their knowledge and commit to a perspective. Nothing says that cannot change, but as it stands you simply have no legs to stand on in an argument other than your assertion that you don't know anything and neither does anybody else, and if you do know something (for which you are deeply ashamed) and I know something, there is no point in debate because we are both correct to ourselves......Total HOGWASH, my friend.

The universe is full of absolutes!! And I declare that your perspective is absolutly foolish.

FC Mellon · Jan 29, 2004, 01:57 pm

..as I 'lie' here and ponder 'truth'(hard to stand up for ones belief if one has no legs to stand on)...I see others YELL at me about what they know to be true...and that is good for them...and I applaud them for 'seeing the truth of their ways'...but I enjoy my 'wobbly ways'..even if I have to use 'pegs' to 'pilot' to my destination of searching for some 'common sense' in what I interpret as 'the truth'. Of course I haven't been successful yet...but 'keep the faith'..when one..(or another ;?)) least expects 'it' they just might 'get it'. 8?)

Ned · Jan 29, 2004, 02:13 pm

If you put one more 'thing' in quotes, I just might be sick....

FC Mellon · Jan 29, 2004, 02:26 pm

...well I noticed you put some *thing* in quotes yourself...and I feel just fine myself...hope you recover soon...apparently it is not some'thing' (oops...sorry) everyone may *get*. ;?)
p.s. ...awe come on 'Ned'...you are 'much too intelligent' to be so concerned...at least 'I think' so.
How do you feel about 'tatoos'...this seems to be a 'cause' and 'effect' 'on some people' also. }?)

Ned · Jan 29, 2004, 02:38 pm

Thanks, I'm feeling a little 'better'.....
oh, hang on a second....hhhhuuuuggghhhhh.....uuuuggggghhhhh....
Ya,ok, I'm good now.

Tatoos? A lil off topic, but I don't have a problem with them. I mean they seem popular, if a bit pointless..but then modern society is consumed with the pointless, so I guess it fits right in with modern
culture.

FC Mellon · Jan 29, 2004, 02:42 pm

LOL....'you're ok' dude!
8?)

orgaelin · Jan 29, 2004, 05:48 pm

Mr Mellon, I see I find you in another argument!

Perhaps if I can 'squeeze' a 'word' in between the two of you?!

Does everything happen for a reason? Depends on the nature ofthe question, which unfortunately went unspecified. One person gave an example of an asteroid strking him because he chose to sit at his desk to check for messages on Volconvo... I hesitate to say it for fear of being accused of having an obsession with the subject, but isn't that 'cause'?

I got the impression the original question was a sort of a 'fatey' question. 'Is there an intelligent design on what happens to people and why'?

I think that it is possible, but that the explanation for it would again fall down to the unconscious mind. It's not God, but a person's unrealised desires that steer him in directions he is not consciously choosing. That is the extent of fate, for me; the old idea of 'self fulfilling prophecy'.

Jan 27, 2004, 05:21 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Plaything48 Igneous Magma Location: London baby, yeah! Posts: 198	I rule in favour of my topic title, but id be interested in what others have to say. A man has two reasons for doing anything --- a good reason and the real reason. Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular.

Jan 27, 2004, 07:10 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
caspian88 Molten Ash Posts: 85	No.

Jan 28, 2004, 03:50 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
white rice Igneous Magma Posts: 372	Here's a pragmatic interpretation... Fate is the prey to be hunted. I believe things are half destiny and half self-motivation. Some people would consider destiny and self determination as black and white, either you have it or you don't, but I believe that there are so many people in this world who think alike and aspire to be the same damn thing that if you don't claim your destiny, another person will. And who you are is largely determined by factors you can't control, like who your parents are, their socioeconomic status, and even your physical well being are determined by the environment. Nature vs Nurture, fate vs. self determination... all things a person can't definitely prove. There are so many events in a person's life that defining moments are usually determined in hindsight or built up through risks and expectations. An optimist will usually lead a longer and happier life than a perssimist; recent studies have proven this practical fact. So, does everything happen for a reason? Only if you want it to. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Jan 28, 2004, 01:17 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	"No victor believes in fate" Nietzsche "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Jan 28, 2004, 01:51 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Ned Molten Ash Location: USA Posts: 25	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Plaything48,) I rule in favour of my topic title, but id be interested in what others have to say.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I naturally assume that when you state that you believe that everything happens for a reason, that you believe in God. For God is the only reasonable explanation for purposeful intent behind the events in your life. And since you obviously agree in this purposeful intent, then you must agree that your fate is predetermined, which necessarily entails that you have no free will and thus no responsibility for your actions. If this sounds distasteful, then you have not thought through the implications of intent behind consequence. I believe that as reasoning animals, we can find reason out of consequence, but I cannot believe in reason behind consequence. Free will allows for sin, which can lead to salvation (good behavior) or damination(further bad behavior). Free will allows for personal responsibility, without which, civilization would be impossible. If your 20 and a Liberal, you can be forgiven for not yet thinking; If your 40 and a Liberal, you can't be forgiven for failing to ever think.

Jan 29, 2004, 11:08 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Plaything48 Igneous Magma Location: London baby, yeah! Posts: 198	nah, you interpreted it wrong, I don't believe in God at all, he doesnt even come into this discussion. A man has two reasons for doing anything --- a good reason and the real reason. Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular.

Jan 29, 2004, 11:54 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	...if it didnt have a reason for happening, how does it have a means to happen? If it has no means to happen, how can it happen at all? "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Jan 29, 2004, 12:06 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Ned Molten Ash Location: USA Posts: 25	Of course God enters into the question! You have stated that you believe that everything happens for a reason. For this to be true, it is necessary for something (lets call it GOD) to be the initiator of the reason behind everything that happens. Intent for action cannot exist in a vacume and I am sure that you and I are not the mastermind behind the intent. It is thus natural for me to assume that you believe in a 'God' with not only the intent, but the means by which to enforce that intent. If you disagree with the above then you cannot believe that everything happens for a reason. If your 20 and a Liberal, you can be forgiven for not yet thinking; If your 40 and a Liberal, you can't be forgiven for failing to ever think.

Jan 29, 2004, 12:12 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Ned Molten Ash Location: USA Posts: 25	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Man Against Time,) ...if it didnt have a reason for happening, how does it have a means to happen? If it has no means to happen, how can it happen at all?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Why must reason preceed means? This makes no sense. You assume that the universe is ruled by intent. So nothing can happen with out a reason? PAAHHHHHH! If your 20 and a Liberal, you can be forgiven for not yet thinking; If your 40 and a Liberal, you can't be forgiven for failing to ever think.

Jan 29, 2004, 12:21 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
FC Mellon Molten Ash Location: So Cal Posts: 51	I like 'Desiderata'..."the universe is unfolding as it should" ...though I do wonder about this concept a lot??? I look at life like a Kaleidoscope....what we witness is just the pieces falling into place to present us with a 'tremendous display' of 'images of reality'...but of course...we do get to have somewhat of an 'effect' on what we view...but maybe not what we would like to view...and maybe not as much('affect' that is) 8?)

Jan 29, 2004, 01:07 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Ned Molten Ash Location: USA Posts: 25	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (FC Mellon,) I like 'Desiderata'..."the universe is unfolding as it should" ...though I do wonder about this concept a lot??? I look at life like a Kaleidoscope....what we witness is just the pieces falling into place to present us with a 'tremendous display' of 'images of reality'...but of course...we do get to have somewhat of an 'effect' on what we view...but maybe not what we would like to view...and maybe not as much('affect' that is) 8?)<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> With all your 'wondering' and 'maybe', I think you don't know what you think. It sounds like you have a thought, and then decide that thought is dead-on, but as time allows that thought to roll around in your mind, you begin to doubt the certainty of you conviction and desperatly try to salvage the thought with amendments......Think it through before posting and then try to relay the thought with understandable script. If your 20 and a Liberal, you can be forgiven for not yet thinking; If your 40 and a Liberal, you can't be forgiven for failing to ever think.

Jan 29, 2004, 01:18 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	Why must reason preceed means? This makes no sense. You assume that the universe is ruled by intent. So nothing can happen with out a reason? Nope, nothing. For example, if a meteor hit me while i sat here, it is because I was sitting here, which is because I was curious about what posts have appeared since I logged in last. That is the reason for me being here. The meteor is here for astronomical reasons and reasons drawn from physical laws of falling bodies. Nothing can happen if it didnt have a reason. That does not imply sone kind of moralistic subjective stamp though. "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Jan 29, 2004, 01:20 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
FC Mellon Molten Ash Location: So Cal Posts: 51	Ned replies: "With all your 'wondering' and 'maybe', I think you don't know what you think." ...and I hope I will always have this about myself. I don't want to ever think I know 'everything' like some in the world who think they might have it all figured out. We each have our own way of viewing things..and we each have our own way of presenting things...and hopefully we are able to exchange these views with other without trying to dictate how everyone must adhere to another who may be wrong also. I really do 'wonder' if 'maybe' another can understand what an 'other' might be trying to communicate. But I guess if one only has one way of looking at everything and determines for themselves..(but not necessarily for another) that..this is how things are and always will be because their method of interpreting life is 'set in concrete'..then I guess I will have a problem understanding their ways...and 'maybe' 'wonder' why I don't..'get it'.

Jan 29, 2004, 01:48 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Ned Molten Ash Location: USA Posts: 25	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (FC Mellon,) ..I don't want to ever think I know 'everything' like some in the world who think they might have it all figured out. We each have our own way of viewing things..and we each have our own way of presenting things...and hopefully we are able to exchange these views with other without trying to dictate how everyone must adhere to another who may be wrong also.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> [SIZE=3][font=Times]Your Nihilism has no effect on me!!![/font][/SIZE] Civilization would not be possible without some consensus of thought. And whats the point of searching for truth if you already come from a perspective that there is no truth? At some point one has to take in the totality of their knowledge and commit to a perspective. Nothing says that cannot change, but as it stands you simply have no legs to stand on in an argument other than your assertion that you don't know anything and neither does anybody else, and if you do know something (for which you are deeply ashamed) and I know something, there is no point in debate because we are both correct to ourselves......Total HOGWASH, my friend. The universe is full of absolutes!! And I declare that your perspective is absolutly foolish. If your 20 and a Liberal, you can be forgiven for not yet thinking; If your 40 and a Liberal, you can't be forgiven for failing to ever think.

Jan 29, 2004, 01:57 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
FC Mellon Molten Ash Location: So Cal Posts: 51	..as I 'lie' here and ponder 'truth'(hard to stand up for ones belief if one has no legs to stand on)...I see others YELL at me about what they know to be true...and that is good for them...and I applaud them for 'seeing the truth of their ways'...but I enjoy my 'wobbly ways'..even if I have to use 'pegs' to 'pilot' to my destination of searching for some 'common sense' in what I interpret as 'the truth'. Of course I haven't been successful yet...but 'keep the faith'..when one..(or another ;?)) least expects 'it' they just might 'get it'. 8?)

Jan 29, 2004, 02:13 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Ned Molten Ash Location: USA Posts: 25	If you put one more 'thing' in quotes, I just might be sick.... If your 20 and a Liberal, you can be forgiven for not yet thinking; If your 40 and a Liberal, you can't be forgiven for failing to ever think.

Jan 29, 2004, 02:26 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
FC Mellon Molten Ash Location: So Cal Posts: 51	...well I noticed you put some thing in quotes yourself...and I feel just fine myself...hope you recover soon...apparently it is not some'thing' (oops...sorry) everyone may get. ;?) p.s. ...awe come on 'Ned'...you are 'much too intelligent' to be so concerned...at least 'I think' so. How do you feel about 'tatoos'...this seems to be a 'cause' and 'effect' 'on some people' also. }?)

Jan 29, 2004, 02:38 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Ned Molten Ash Location: USA Posts: 25	Thanks, I'm feeling a little 'better'..... oh, hang on a second....hhhhuuuuggghhhhh.....uuuuggggghhhhh.... Ya,ok, I'm good now. Tatoos? A lil off topic, but I don't have a problem with them. I mean they seem popular, if a bit pointless..but then modern society is consumed with the pointless, so I guess it fits right in with modern culture. If your 20 and a Liberal, you can be forgiven for not yet thinking; If your 40 and a Liberal, you can't be forgiven for failing to ever think.

Jan 29, 2004, 02:42 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
FC Mellon Molten Ash Location: So Cal Posts: 51	LOL....'you're ok' dude! 8?)

Jan 29, 2004, 05:48 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
orgaelin Igneous Magma Location: Midlands UK Posts: 704	Mr Mellon, I see I find you in another argument! Perhaps if I can 'squeeze' a 'word' in between the two of you?! Does everything happen for a reason? Depends on the nature ofthe question, which unfortunately went unspecified. One person gave an example of an asteroid strking him because he chose to sit at his desk to check for messages on Volconvo... I hesitate to say it for fear of being accused of having an obsession with the subject, but isn't that 'cause'? I got the impression the original question was a sort of a 'fatey' question. 'Is there an intelligent design on what happens to people and why'? I think that it is possible, but that the explanation for it would again fall down to the unconscious mind. It's not God, but a person's unrealised desires that steer him in directions he is not consciously choosing. That is the extent of fate, for me; the old idea of 'self fulfilling prophecy'. "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein