Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Man Against Time · Jan 30, 2004, 12:06 pm

That never explains things like men living through things that should have killed them, like Adolf Hitler or the Duce in World War I. It was their destiny to live on and do what they had to do.

I would like to note at this point, whatever the reason, it doesnt really matter- it is an observable fact that when men believe in fate, they act more purely and with less fear. When men of antiquity went into battle, they believed they were already chosen as survivors or fallen, and so fought as hard as they could to make the best of what may be their last testament to life. When men enter into situations today without that belief, they shrink from conflict and risk because they believe they hold the key to their survival. So even if it is a false belief (which I do not believe), it still yields better results.

Since there is not one chance of "proving" either side of the argument, shouldnt we side with the opinion that yields better results?

**Pooeypants** · Jan 30, 2004, 12:57 pm

If we get the Theory of everything, of that means every particle is predictable (supposing we have enough computational power) does that mean we'd be able to predict our destiny?

eburchelli · Jan 30, 2004, 07:50 pm

Reason is a pattern. It is a part of our function as human beings. Lesser creatures don't reason because their instinctive behavior takes them as far as they are capable going.

Even though they can train mice to follow a maze to cheese or whatever the reward is at the end, it's all patterned by repetitive movements. Not at all like reasoning.

Although I can image that primitive man had to repeat many movements in order to fathom what caused any particular effect. Perhaps those early brain exercises became the pattern that has survived to our time, each succeeding generation improving upon it.

meowmeow · Jan 30, 2004, 10:38 pm

Of course not, things just happen by their own accord, some strange twist of universal fate...

By implying reason to the things that happen, you're insinuating that there is a greater power pulling the strings.

Things happen because of a strange convergence of happenstance...but then I digress, because that in itself is a reason.

Man Against Time · Jan 31, 2004, 08:31 am

Saying something was meant to happen only implies the intervention of a humanized god if that is the only way you are capable of thinking.

What if time just wasnt linear?

FC Mellon · Jan 31, 2004, 10:33 am

Man against Time...are you saying that 'Time against Man' has already been set..and everyone is just waiting for their own personal alarm clock to go off? ...or am I just dreaming again? ;?)
Btw...I think I agree with you if this is what you think(or even dream about)...cuz sometimes I just can't wait to 'wake up from these nightmares' I find myself having sometimes about Man's own fight against Time...and especially when I am that man....'I have this philosophy that you only grow up once...(and I am saving mine)...but 'the interest' is not what it used to be..and I have found myself 'lacking in time' against 'my own struggles' when it comes to 'time'. 8?!
..I guess...when in doubt...we can always 'chuck our clocks' out the window and 'wait for our own awakening' 'in our own time' of 'our own making'....but of course 'we may get fired' for this decision if the 'Father of all clocks' is unhappy with us for 'tempting time'..this way.... 8?(

Man Against Time · Jan 31, 2004, 03:39 pm

I dont think you are intrepreting the Time in my Screen name properly; in my case, Time is an expression of the principle of death and decay, something akin to a metaphysical law of falling bodies. Time is what ensures the end of days, the Kali Yuga, the Iron Age, Ragnarok, the Last Sun, etc. I am against this fall from primordial grace.

FC Mellon · Feb 1, 2004, 08:07 am

Hmnnn??..I thought this is what I was thinking from a 'primodial perspective'....I must be falling down on the job again....sorry. 8?(

Feb 10, 2004, 02:05 am

hello there. this is my first post here. please don't be offended if i don't read whatanyone puts before i answer the question i may overlap what you say, i may not. i am far too tired and far too little concerned if i do at this moment.

(lazy and tired)
ok i did see a tidbit about if you beleive this was true then you'd have to beleive in god. that's not true in my opinion here is why:
everything happens for a reason and the reason is that it was impossible to not happen after it had already. -nothing to do with god-

what i think the question was related to god was because people look at huge coincidences in life as omens from a higher power or guardian angel. this can be the case and still have nothing to do with god if you look at peoples thoughts about why these coincidences or signs happen as a representational form. for example, there are tons of other free willed beings in existance...maybe even invinite numbers of them. the collision of free will can not help but happen and it often seems that that singer was singing to you. that you were meant to find them. then again there are tons of other people who will hear the same music that will have no relation to what they hear the way you do. you having been in life circumstances and colliding with another beings energies and thoughts found in a cd or many cd's is just a statistical probability that was bound to happen. just as all combinations of all things are bound to happen. if you find alot of coincidences happening around you that are more signifigant than normal you may very well have some otherworldly being setting it all up for you. i don't know what much else to say. i tend to speak like a scatter brain- nathan noble.

Feb 10, 2004, 02:13 am

Lets point out.. the destiny is true.. like starting a car and driving forward.. if you have no brakes on the car, it will go forward until it is stopped.. Take life.. the original direction was set long ago, we all think that the direction is the correct way and therefore it has no brakes.. like a car.. it will go until it falls apart or runs out of gas.. money is the gas.. so what needs to fall apart to stop destiny?

Feb 10, 2004, 02:56 pm

ok ok ok the theory of everything failed. how can you have 5 similar theories of everything that each can not be disproven? string theory bombed. it does teach us a few things tho. everything within the universe can be governed by mathematical probability but not the universe itself.

Feb 10, 2004, 03:05 pm

The end result is what? Destiny says we will only last so long in our bodies, but is there more after that? It appears that nothing is a sure thing.. if it were, and with some of our beliefs, if the end result was and proven nothig, why do we bother.. are we all meant to prove a mission.. maybe GOD has a bet.. that he could create a likeness of himself and that only he can be GOD, or he is breading GODS that take a trillion plus years to accomplish through evolution, if we can survive that long.

antayla · Feb 11, 2004, 07:53 am

I think that everything does happen for a reason... because it had to. If you think about it, in the infinity of time all things are not only possible, but happen. Given enough "time" the probability of something happening drops to *almost* zero. Consider that time is probably only a local idea (a universal rather than existential phenomenon.) In fact, I would also wager that all things are happening at the same time. My theory on the universe is that time isn't linear because outside of our dimension/universe it doesn't exist in the way we are used to it; that we "will become" a "universal mind" that makes up... a fragment of mind in another dimension. The fragment is similar to say, an electron or proton in our dimension (or whatever the smallest unit is supposed to be) and is ONE THING, one cycle of mind that repeats from the first question of "exist? y/n" to "die? y/n" in endless repetition...

The reason we see things the way we do is because we (and by "we" I mean this universe, which we are inseperable from as individual things) is because we are in the process of taking the necessary steps to universal mind. I think at the time we reach universal mind, the universe will collapse and we will start a new repetition.

Just a thought...

Jan 30, 2004, 12:06 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	That never explains things like men living through things that should have killed them, like Adolf Hitler or the Duce in World War I. It was their destiny to live on and do what they had to do. I would like to note at this point, whatever the reason, it doesnt really matter- it is an observable fact that when men believe in fate, they act more purely and with less fear. When men of antiquity went into battle, they believed they were already chosen as survivors or fallen, and so fought as hard as they could to make the best of what may be their last testament to life. When men enter into situations today without that belief, they shrink from conflict and risk because they believe they hold the key to their survival. So even if it is a false belief (which I do not believe), it still yields better results. Since there is not one chance of "proving" either side of the argument, shouldnt we side with the opinion that yields better results? "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Jan 30, 2004, 12:57 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,549	If we get the Theory of everything, of that means every particle is predictable (supposing we have enough computational power) does that mean we'd be able to predict our destiny? War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Jan 31, 2004, 08:31 am	#25 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	Saying something was meant to happen only implies the intervention of a humanized god if that is the only way you are capable of thinking. What if time just wasnt linear? "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Jan 31, 2004, 03:39 pm	#27 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	I dont think you are intrepreting the Time in my Screen name properly; in my case, Time is an expression of the principle of death and decay, something akin to a metaphysical law of falling bodies. Time is what ensures the end of days, the Kali Yuga, the Iron Age, Ragnarok, the Last Sun, etc. I am against this fall from primordial grace. "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Feb 11, 2004, 07:53 am	#33 (permalink) (top)
antayla Molten Ash Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 56	I think that everything does happen for a reason... because it had to. If you think about it, in the infinity of time all things are not only possible, but happen. Given enough "time" the probability of something happening drops to almost zero. Consider that time is probably only a local idea (a universal rather than existential phenomenon.) In fact, I would also wager that all things are happening at the same time. My theory on the universe is that time isn't linear because outside of our dimension/universe it doesn't exist in the way we are used to it; that we "will become" a "universal mind" that makes up... a fragment of mind in another dimension. The fragment is similar to say, an electron or proton in our dimension (or whatever the smallest unit is supposed to be) and is ONE THING, one cycle of mind that repeats from the first question of "exist? y/n" to "die? y/n" in endless repetition... The reason we see things the way we do is because we (and by "we" I mean this universe, which we are inseperable from as individual things) is because we are in the process of taking the necessary steps to universal mind. I think at the time we reach universal mind, the universe will collapse and we will start a new repetition. Just a thought... Member of the Free State Project. http://www.freestateproject.com

Jan 30, 2004, 07:50 pm	#23 (permalink) (top)
eburchelli Molten Ash Posts: 106	Reason is a pattern. It is a part of our function as human beings. Lesser creatures don't reason because their instinctive behavior takes them as far as they are capable going. Even though they can train mice to follow a maze to cheese or whatever the reward is at the end, it's all patterned by repetitive movements. Not at all like reasoning. Although I can image that primitive man had to repeat many movements in order to fathom what caused any particular effect. Perhaps those early brain exercises became the pattern that has survived to our time, each succeeding generation improving upon it.

Jan 30, 2004, 10:38 pm	#24 (permalink) (top)
meowmeow Sedimentary Rock Posts: 13	Of course not, things just happen by their own accord, some strange twist of universal fate... By implying reason to the things that happen, you're insinuating that there is a greater power pulling the strings. Things happen because of a strange convergence of happenstance...but then I digress, because that in itself is a reason.

Jan 31, 2004, 10:33 am	#26 (permalink) (top)
FC Mellon Molten Ash Location: So Cal Posts: 51	Man against Time...are you saying that 'Time against Man' has already been set..and everyone is just waiting for their own personal alarm clock to go off? ...or am I just dreaming again? ;?) Btw...I think I agree with you if this is what you think(or even dream about)...cuz sometimes I just can't wait to 'wake up from these nightmares' I find myself having sometimes about Man's own fight against Time...and especially when I am that man....'I have this philosophy that you only grow up once...(and I am saving mine)...but 'the interest' is not what it used to be..and I have found myself 'lacking in time' against 'my own struggles' when it comes to 'time'. 8?! ..I guess...when in doubt...we can always 'chuck our clocks' out the window and 'wait for our own awakening' 'in our own time' of 'our own making'....but of course 'we may get fired' for this decision if the 'Father of all clocks' is unhappy with us for 'tempting time'..this way.... 8?(

Feb 1, 2004, 08:07 am	#28 (permalink) (top)
FC Mellon Molten Ash Location: So Cal Posts: 51	Hmnnn??..I thought this is what I was thinking from a 'primodial perspective'....I must be falling down on the job again....sorry. 8?(

Feb 10, 2004, 02:05 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
Funeral Boy Guest Posts: n/a	hello there. this is my first post here. please don't be offended if i don't read whatanyone puts before i answer the question i may overlap what you say, i may not. i am far too tired and far too little concerned if i do at this moment. (lazy and tired) ok i did see a tidbit about if you beleive this was true then you'd have to beleive in god. that's not true in my opinion here is why: everything happens for a reason and the reason is that it was impossible to not happen after it had already. -nothing to do with god- what i think the question was related to god was because people look at huge coincidences in life as omens from a higher power or guardian angel. this can be the case and still have nothing to do with god if you look at peoples thoughts about why these coincidences or signs happen as a representational form. for example, there are tons of other free willed beings in existance...maybe even invinite numbers of them. the collision of free will can not help but happen and it often seems that that singer was singing to you. that you were meant to find them. then again there are tons of other people who will hear the same music that will have no relation to what they hear the way you do. you having been in life circumstances and colliding with another beings energies and thoughts found in a cd or many cd's is just a statistical probability that was bound to happen. just as all combinations of all things are bound to happen. if you find alot of coincidences happening around you that are more signifigant than normal you may very well have some otherworldly being setting it all up for you. i don't know what much else to say. i tend to speak like a scatter brain- nathan noble.

Feb 10, 2004, 02:13 am	#30 (permalink) (top)
CitizenCOP Guest Posts: n/a	Lets point out.. the destiny is true.. like starting a car and driving forward.. if you have no brakes on the car, it will go forward until it is stopped.. Take life.. the original direction was set long ago, we all think that the direction is the correct way and therefore it has no brakes.. like a car.. it will go until it falls apart or runs out of gas.. money is the gas.. so what needs to fall apart to stop destiny?

Feb 10, 2004, 02:56 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
Funeral Boy Guest Posts: n/a	ok ok ok the theory of everything failed. how can you have 5 similar theories of everything that each can not be disproven? string theory bombed. it does teach us a few things tho. everything within the universe can be governed by mathematical probability but not the universe itself.

Feb 10, 2004, 03:05 pm	#32 (permalink) (top)
CitizenCOP Guest Posts: n/a	The end result is what? Destiny says we will only last so long in our bodies, but is there more after that? It appears that nothing is a sure thing.. if it were, and with some of our beliefs, if the end result was and proven nothig, why do we bother.. are we all meant to prove a mission.. maybe GOD has a bet.. that he could create a likeness of himself and that only he can be GOD, or he is breading GODS that take a trillion plus years to accomplish through evolution, if we can survive that long.