Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Abortion is a symptom of the moral diseases in our society. Simply outlawing abortion will do nothing. A morality rehaul is needed.

The zygote is an extension of the mother? How many extensions do you have that have a different genetic make-up? It's obviously more than a body part.

If you support mid to late term abortions, watch the National Geographic special "In The Womb". The pro-life movement has no greater weapon.

To samsara15
So anything that can't remember is not life? That's really messed up. Randomly killing 4 year olds is apparently alright with you?

[namguy69]

I have no remarks on this.

[xJesterx]

I believe conception basically because I don't see how a matter of a few months makes a baby not a baby. I agree that while in the womb the child is a part of the mother and her body. But then with only a matter of skin - the same can be said about a disabled person completely dependant on someone else and even closer a conjoined twin. Doesn't make them any less human or any less deserving of life.

In my opinion when you have such an 'accident' you made the mistake wary of the risks you were taking. And like with any other accident you have to face your consequences.

A drug addict whos body starts shutting down because of the abuse has to deal with the consequences of their actions. If they want to recover to a reasonable degree they have to go through withdrawls, false confidence and eventually the recognition that their choices will have an effect (however mild) on them for the rest of their lives. Nobody blames the persons body for shutting down. They pin it on the drug addict for apparently not being strong enough, or the drug itself or the government or the friends or society. But they never blame the organs for collapsing. I see abortion the same way.

In the rare cases that the mothers health is at serious risk, they have been a rape victim or similar situations - here I believe abortion finds its place. I do not support the majority of women who get abortions just because they might break a nail during the pregnancy.

Every action has a consequence. You either face the consequence or run squealing down the road. Blood never washes off no matter what people tell you - or what you tell yourself.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Abortion is a symptom of the moral diseases in our society. Simply outlawing abortion will do nothing. A morality rehaul is needed. The zygote is an extension of the mother? How many extensions do you have that have a different genetic make-up? It's obviously more than a body part.

... that's your argument??

Firstly this is the first time the phrase 'body part' has been used in this thread. extension and 'body part' are two different things. The zygote is an extension, as it is attached to the mother by umbilical cord. If this cord were to be cut, the zygote would die quickly and easily. Once it develops into an embryo, it slowly gains the ablity to be able to survive when seperated. Once a brainwave clicks on, the embryo begins to think. At that point, I believe it has a mind as such, and can be regarded as a seperate entity, since while it is physically connected, it can think for itself. Whether or not it is physically able to survive at that point, I am unsure, but its a good start.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Obviously when the brainwave starts and movement begins it is a human life.
Actually the zygote isn't connected to the mother in its earlier days, it just sort of floats there. Anyway, a baby would die without a caretaker, does that give them the right to kill it, no, unless you're that guy supporting killing 3 and 4 year olds. Dependant life is life all the same.

[kilkee]

Is Canada committing suicide?

By

James Bredin

My country committing suicide at the abortion clinic,
Off into oblivion much like a depressed suicidal cynic,
Demographics and the number of unborn babies killed,
Ironic that the health card allows the government to be billed.

Industrial efficiency with their baby genocide,
No one cares that we might be committing cultural suicide,
But we’re already multicultural in Trudeau’s Charter,
So no need to fret about a tiny trembling fetus martyr.

No one dares to defend unborn abortion-bound babies,
Especially not the activist left-wing feminist ladies,
As they scream all day and night about freedom of choice,
And the abortion killing machine allows them to rejoice,

Pictures and horror genocide stories from Chad wall to wall,
They want us to go and save babies there – what a lot of gall,
But nothing about our own ongoing baby genocide,
Our Charter and our conscience and our silence all coincide.

I almost hate to say this, but pregnant ladies should have babies,
Meet an imam at the maternity ward with one of his ladies,
Where babies named Mohamed will soon outnumber all others,
Already happened in Amsterdam to our European brothers.

Wednesday, December 27, 2006

[KillerArgument]

Amen to that Kilkee!

[pikatore]

.... what the hell kind of productive input was that? should i do a musical number in return?

[jamesbdunn]

Quote by: dotcoma I used to be pro-choice, but I thought about it for a while, and the privacy issue no longer makes sense to me. If you truly beleive life begins at conception then you have no right to privately destroy that life. It is like taking someone's life in your basement and claiming prosecution would be a violation of privacy in my opinion.

Life began long before we can currently consider. Realize that the same material that makes up your body was at one time part of a star, and before that, perhaps part os life elsewhere. We as people are only present for a miniscule moment in time. Do you really think an individual makes much difference at all when considering the Universe (including everything we can not see) as a whole? How can we be that conceded and self absorbed !

As for is it wrong to kill. The Ten Commandments say that we shall not kill. If you believe in the Ten Commandments! If you believe in the Ten Commandments then you shall NOT follow the teachings of the Torah, Bible, or Quaan. The Ten Commandments are very specific in that no man shall speak in the name of God. The Ten Commandments are the only writings of God; if you believe in any of the writings attributable to God that is. If God is all knowing and all powerful, why would it need to speak more than once. The seed of its words would permeate every aspect of our society. ALL words spoken in God's name other than the Ten Commandements must be works of man, not God.

And as the seed of knowledge was given by God, and abused by man. So to are the seeds of life put into motion many trillions of years ago. Only from the consequences that followed are we able to exist today.

Oh, if you believe in the Bible, man and all that is known came into existence about 4,000 years before Christ.

Also notice, the Ten Commandments say that thou shalt not kill. It does not say, thou shalt not kill other people. Thou shalt not kill is not open for interpretation! Thou shalt not kill ANYTHING !!!

If you believe the Ten Commandments are the words of God, they are the ONLY words of God. No person shall interpret them for any other person. I can not tell you what to believe, nor can anyone else. My opinion is that if there is a God, it would only need to speak once and not have to explain itself over and over again. In my opinion, every being, everywhere, shall do all they can not to kill another living creature.

Do I believe in a womans' choice to terminate a conceived fetus? I believe that each woman must decide for themselves what they believe and act upon it. I believe I would be absolutely wrong to force her to act differently than she believes.

I believe Capital punishment should never be allowed. Dead people can not tell you what other things they have done. Unsolved cases remain unsolved. We can not analyze their lives to help determine how to keep from creating a similar individual. Killing is not a particularly useful solution.

The weak mind can not conceive of how to productively utilize dysfunctional life. Those persons should have a far lesser amount of control over the fates of other people. Just because they do not have the mental capacity to see beyond primordial instincts, does not mean that other people do not have far superior intelligence for allowing ALL individuals to be productive.

If any person condones forcing a woman to have a child without her desire, then each person must allow society to do with their body whatever is best for society. This includes experimental drug testing, chemical testing, and any other form of testing that would best benefit future society. If you force a person to accept undesireable consequences for their own body, then you must accept undesireable consequences for your body as well.

Life starts with the seeds of the original Universe; we exist because of those seeds. Whether generated intelligently or not. Don't pretend to understand or know what the correct answer should be. Be empathic and allow each person to discover for themselves the consequences of their own actions.

Provide a logical toolset to each person so they can better analyze the complex relationships of which they live and participate. Ethical Reasoning, Six Sigma, Critical Reasoning, all have mathematical and logic based tool sets for better understanding complex interrelationships.

Far too many people are either unable (damage, malnutrition, genetic) or too lazy to use their minds to attempt to understand the broad consequences of even the most simple proposed action.

Off the top of my head, I suspect there are various levels of mental accuity.

Mental Incompetent: Abuse, or be submissive under, anyone or anything that opposes what I want to do.

Mentally Challenged: Empathy driven, little understanding of consequence.

Mentally Inexperienced: Act in moderation so I don't get into trouble.

Mentally Aware: Loose understanding of the consequence of social systems, and able to make small logical changes.

Mentally Enriched: Has strong control of complex relationships while subordinating instinctual drives.

Mentally Enlightened: Able to understand mental processes and how to project higher order mental relationships so that others of lesser capability may understand the higher order relationships and processes.

Based upon my categories, where do you fit in? I would say I'm somewhere between Mentally Aware and superficially fringing upon Mentally Enriched.

How many people of the world do you think should be making decisions to govern the personal nature of peoples' lives? I doubt any of us here are able to make decisions without the contamination of narrow perspectives.

Each woman must choose for themselves.

[KillerArgument]

Quote by: jamesbdunn Life began long before we can currently consider. Realize that the same material that makes up your body was at one time part of a star, and before that, perhaps part os life elsewhere. We as people are only present for a miniscule moment in time. Do you really think an individual makes much difference at all when considering the Universe (including everything we can not see) as a whole? How can we be that conceded and self absorbed ! As for is it wrong to kill. The Ten Commandments say that we shall not kill. If you believe in the Ten Commandments! If you believe in the Ten Commandments then you shall NOT follow the teachings of the Torah, Bible, or Quaan. The Ten Commandments are very specific in that no man shall speak in the name of God. The Ten Commandments are the only writings of God; if you believe in any of the writings attributable to God that is. If God is all knowing and all powerful, why would it need to speak more than once. The seed of its words would permeate every aspect of our society. ALL words spoken in God's name other than the Ten Commandements must be works of man, not God. And as the seed of knowledge was given by God, and abused by man. So to are the seeds of life put into motion many trillions of years ago. Only from the consequences that followed are we able to exist today. Oh, if you believe in the Bible, man and all that is known came into existence about 4,000 years before Christ. Also notice, the Ten Commandments say that thou shalt not kill. It does not say, thou shalt not kill other people. Thou shalt not kill is not open for interpretation! Thou shalt not kill ANYTHING !!! If you believe the Ten Commandments are the words of God, they are the ONLY words of God. No person shall interpret them for any other person. I can not tell you what to believe, nor can anyone else. My opinion is that if there is a God, it would only need to speak once and not have to explain itself over and over again. In my opinion, every being, everywhere, shall do all they can not to kill another living creature. Do I believe in a womans' choice to terminate a conceived fetus? I believe that each woman must decide for themselves what they believe and act upon it. I believe I would be absolutely wrong to force her to act differently than she believes. I believe Capital punishment should never be allowed. Dead people can not tell you what other things they have done. Unsolved cases remain unsolved. We can not analyze their lives to help determine how to keep from creating a similar individual. Killing is not a particularly useful solution. The weak mind can not conceive of how to productively utilize dysfunctional life. Those persons should have a far lesser amount of control over the fates of other people. Just because they do not have the mental capacity to see beyond primordial instincts, does not mean that other people do not have far superior intelligence for allowing ALL individuals to be productive. If any person condones forcing a woman to have a child without her desire, then each person must allow society to do with their body whatever is best for society. This includes experimental drug testing, chemical testing, and any other form of testing that would best benefit future society. If you force a person to accept undesireable consequences for their own body, then you must accept undesireable consequences for your body as well. Life starts with the seeds of the original Universe; we exist because of those seeds. Whether generated intelligently or not. Don't pretend to understand or know what the correct answer should be. Be empathic and allow each person to discover for themselves the consequences of their own actions. Provide a logical toolset to each person so they can better analyze the complex relationships of which they live and participate. Ethical Reasoning, Six Sigma, Critical Reasoning, all have mathematical and logic based tool sets for better understanding complex interrelationships. Far too many people are either unable (damage, malnutrition, genetic) or too lazy to use their minds to attempt to understand the broad consequences of even the most simple proposed action. Off the top of my head, I suspect there are various levels of mental accuity. Mental Incompetent: Abuse, or be submissive under, anyone or anything that opposes what I want to do. Mentally Challenged: Empathy driven, little understanding of consequence. Mentally Inexperienced: Act in moderation so I don't get into trouble. Mentally Aware: Loose understanding of the consequence of social systems, and able to make small logical changes. Mentally Enriched: Has strong control of complex relationships while subordinating instinctual drives. Mentally Enlightened: Able to understand mental processes and how to project higher order mental relationships so that others of lesser capability may understand the higher order relationships and processes. Based upon my categories, where do you fit in? I would say I'm somewhere between Mentally Aware and superficially fringing upon Mentally Enriched. How many people of the world do you think should be making decisions to govern the personal nature of peoples' lives? I doubt any of us here are able to make decisions without the contamination of narrow perspectives. Each woman must choose for themselves.

Thank you for the sermon. Here's mine:

Jesus has always existed--He's God.

God's Word has never stopped speaking: the Bible is the most popular and proliferated book in the world.

You would be "absolutely wrong" to force a woman to do other than what she believes? Where did you get that sense of "absolutely wrong"?

What if that woman wanted to murder her one-year old daughter or YOUR 2 year old son? Would you then feel justified in telling her what she can and cannot do with her "body," and more specifically the "hands" of her body that are around your son's throat?

Do you believe moral crimes should be punished?

A fetus is not "part" of a woman's body. And part of the fetus is the concern of the father, as it came from his body.

When a woman has sex, she enters into a scenario that may soon involve not only her life, but that of someone else (other than the man.)

Higher-level thinking?

[Praxius]

Quote by: kilkee ........No one cares that we might be committing cultural suicide.....

The word is "Might"... we might be..... this is this man's opinion, not mine.

I love how people can base their own opinions as being right when they use references of other people claiming "Might" as being "True."

I guess this falls under the category as the other people who don't believe Global Warming exists..... prove it and I will believe.

And what is this Cultural suicide? Because some people have abortions, you think we're going to be over run by people of different faiths? Not only is there the question "So What?" ~ the other question this raises for me is "So you believe in keeping your race and culture more stronger then another's?" or "You want your culture to be more pure?"

Then you get into more problems thinking that way. And if there are people having abortions regardless of what you think, then perhaps you don't want them in your culture to begin with, so therefore their abortions are just, since they would only raise their children to think the way they do and they might have abortions as well.

I still feel it is the choice of the future parents in weither or not they want to give birth to the child. It's their right to have sex, it's their right to conceive, and it's their right to raise and teach the kid as they see fit..... why can't they have the right of abortion?

Just saying it is wrong is not a good enough reason. Just saying because God said so, is not a good enough reason, since God never mentioned himself about abortions..... only the higher powers of the church claimed this.... so you follow.

[Praxius]

Quote by: KillerArgument A fetus is not "part" of a woman's body.

Sez who and where?

And part of the fetus is the concern of the father, as it came from his body.

True, he should have a say, but she's the one who's gonna be split in half when it's over, and she's the one who will have the possible health problems that come with it.

[pikatore]

Quote by: KillerArgument Thank you for the sermon. Here's mine: Jesus has always existed--He's God. God's Word has never stopped speaking: the Bible is the most popular and proliferated book in the world.

your counter-sermon in my opinion is a pile of wank and holds absolutely no weight. ill ignore it and not even try to reason with it.

Quote by: KillerArgument You would be "absolutely wrong" to force a woman to do other than what she believes? Where did you get that sense of "absolutely wrong"?

If you forced a woman to do other than what she believes, as long as she isn't causing harm to other people, than you would be wrong. I agree. That sense of "absolutely wrong", by the way, didnt come to me from the Bible. Does that make me "absolutely wrong"?

Quote by: KillerArgument What if that woman wanted to murder her one-year old daughter or YOUR 2 year old son? Would you then feel justified in telling her what she can and cannot do with her "body," and more specifically the "hands" of her body that are around your son's throat?

You shouldnt equate pre-sentient abortions to the taking of another human being's life. That comparison is ridiculous and irresponsible.

Quote by: KillerArgument Do you believe moral crimes should be punished?

Yes. But unfortunately for yourself, the morality of abortion is what is up for debate, isnt it? That question is irrelevant.

Quote by: KillerArgument A fetus is not "part" of a woman's body. And part of the fetus is the concern of the father, as it came from his body.

No, it is very much a part of the woman's body. It is attached to her via the umbilical cord, which biologically connects the fetus to the placenta. Hence it is a part of the mother. It is NOT a human being as we know it, because it can't even think (no brainwave) let alone survive if disconnected. Making it functionally the biological equivalent of a lump of meat. Therefore it is considered an extension of the mother until it develops the necessary characteristics to be deemed human (one of them, as i said before, being the presence of a brainwave).

As for the father, since about half of the baby contains his genetic material, he should have a say as well.

Quote by: KillerArgument When a woman has sex, she enters into a scenario that may soon involve not only her life, but that of someone else (other than the man.)

Well those who require an abortion because they are too ignorant to realise that would be doing the would-be baby a bad favor, wouldn't they? If they are too stupid to realise how important a human life is, and what they are dealing with if they were to let the fetus develop into a baby and be born, then I don't think it would be a good idea to let that happen.

Quote by: KillerArgument Higher-level thinking?

..?

[KillerArgument]

Who says human life is important?

[Marilyn Monroe]

Well those who require an abortion because they are too ignorant to realise that would be doing the would-be baby a bad favor, wouldn't they? If they are too stupid to realise how important a human life is, and what they are dealing with if they were to let the fetus develop into a baby and be born, then I don't think it would be a good idea to let that happen.
..?[/quote]

Not all women that have abortions do it because they are stupid.

The problem that the US has with abortion is that the SCOTUS is the body that ruled on the legalization of it. Seven people made the decision.

I think that the US has to make a decision on when a fetus is viable and then go from there. Put some restraints on it, but I think it needs to be legal within the first tri-mester, and no government funding like in other countries.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

Just wanted to make this thread that much longer with this post. Might as well state my opinion, which is that women should be able to choose for themselves, regardless of how disturbing an unborn fetus looks out of the womb. Obviously its going to look like that, its not in its natural state!

[Praxius]

About three months ago (Or summertime I believe) a group of Pro-Life lunatics came from Toronto and headed east towards the Atlantic here. They lined up along the main streets during rush hours, holding up very large pictures of aborted fetuses and undeveloped babies in trash cans and baggies with slogans promoting life and not to choose abortion.

Now it's all fine and dandy that we all have the right of freedom of speech..... but these idiots took it way too far, and many were offended by their protest.

It wasn't just the fact that they were holding up traffic, it wasn't just that they were showing disgusting pictures...... it was the fact that they were displaying all of this in front of families and their children of all ages who drove by.

Many families reported having to calm their children from seeing the exact same BS that these same groups of protesters argue about what is shown on TV.

If you want to send a message, send it to the right people and don't bring the children into your morbid twisted games in making yourself right.

Even people who were against abortions who drove by were appalled by what they were doing. It's people like these protesters who don't help a dam thing either way.

[KillerArgument]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe Well those who require an abortion because they are too ignorant to realise that would be doing the would-be baby a bad favor, wouldn't they? If they are too stupid to realise how important a human life is, and what they are dealing with if they were to let the fetus develop into a baby and be born, then I don't think it would be a good idea to let that happen. ..?

Not all women that have abortions do it because they are stupid.

The problem that the US has with abortion is that the SCOTUS is the body that ruled on the legalization of it. Seven people made the decision.

I think that the US has to make a decision on when a fetus is viable and then go from there. Put some restraints on it, but I think it needs to be legal within the first tri-mester, and no government funding like in other countries.[/quote]


Hi Norma Jean,

Good to have ya here, baby. I never said human life was not important, I just asked the reasons why.

[KillerArgument]

Quote by: Praxius About three months ago (Or summertime I believe) a group of Pro-Life lunatics came from Toronto and headed east towards the Atlantic here. They lined up along the main streets during rush hours, holding up very large pictures of aborted fetuses and undeveloped babies in trash cans and baggies with slogans promoting life and not to choose abortion. Now it's all fine and dandy that we all have the right of freedom of speech..... but these idiots took it way too far, and many were offended by their protest. It wasn't just the fact that they were holding up traffic, it wasn't just that they were showing disgusting pictures...... it was the fact that they were displaying all of this in front of families and their children of all ages who drove by. Many families reported having to calm their children from seeing the exact same BS that these same groups of protesters argue about what is shown on TV. If you want to send a message, send it to the right people and don't bring the children into your morbid twisted games in making yourself right. Even people who were against abortions who drove by were appalled by what they were doing. It's people like these protesters who don't help a dam thing either way.

I agree--pretty bad taste. --But then again, they did succeed in getting your attention, getting you to remember it, right?

On the other hand, back in the Old West when hangings were public, it sure must have made a big impression on the little future gunslingers who were thinking of knocking off banks, right?

So here in this case, all the little girls who saw the signs and forced a discussion with their parents couldn't later in life claim ignorance to the monstrous evil they would be doing in murdering their own child.

[Paleface2500]

I agree, abortion is just plain wrong.
Men and women should not have the ability to terminate life, period.
I truly believe there are some things in life man shouldn’t mess with. Man as a race is unqualified to decide who lives and who dies.