Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Starboy Hey life is life. But I agree with you. Life kills life. That is the way it is. That is the way it has always been. Not all that long ago humans were more the snackee than the snacker when it came to life killing life. But you have not dealt with the question. I am talking about human feces that contain living human cells that are flushed down the toilet by human beings billions of times a day. Where is your outrage man! Where is your indignation of these humans killing humans! Starboy

Those cells that are flushed are exactly that...cells...they were formed by mitosis and no matter how many times the process repeats, they still remain just cells...be it E coli, leukocytes, red blood cells, epithelial cells..whatever...that is all that they will ever be...If they are part of your body, they contain your DNA...

BUT...a zygote is another being all together...and it can not be confused with a simple cell...it is human already...not part of a human but a human...there is a difference and your attempt at humor does not mask the fact that you can't defend your position with any sort of scientific fact...

Might I recommend that you learn some basic developmental biology before you continue this discussion...as the arguments that you put forward demonstrate that you don't even grasp the basics..

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder BUT...a zygote is another being all together...and it can not be confused with a simple cell...it is human already...not part of a human but a human...there is a difference and your attempt at humor does not mask the fact that you can't defend your position with any sort of scientific fact...

Why is a single fertilized cell different than any other human cell? A human being is a collection of billions of cells. How can you possibly confuse a single cell with billions of cells no matter what you may think is special about that single cell?

Might I recommend that you learn some basic developmental biology before you continue this discussion...as the arguments that you put forward demonstrate that you don't even grasp the basics..

You should take your own advice. At least I know how to count.

Starboy

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Starboy Why is a single fertilized cell different than any other human cell? A human being is a collection of billions of cells. How can you possibly confuse a single cell with billions of cells no matter what you may think is special about that single cell? Starboy

Because that single cell has a unique DNA signature...it is not part of the mother's body...it is a unique being among all of the other humans that have ever lived...That single cell does not simply replicate itself via mitosis, it has a genetic destiny that is independent of the mother's body and quite different from any of the cells that make up her body.she, in no way regulates the growth of the new human within her...

Tell me starboy...if you have not always been a human being, what species did you belong to before you became human...

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder Because that single cell has a unique DNA signature...it is not part of the mother's body...it is a unique being among all of the other humans that have ever lived...That single cell does not simply replicate itself via mitosis, it has a genetic destiny that is independent of the mother's body and quite different from any of the cells that make up her body.she, in no way regulates the growth of the new human within her...

The reason why the genetic signature is different is because we reproduce bisexually. There are species where the offspring are clones of the parents. There is no reason why we couldn’t change to reproduce that way. There have been some interesting experiments done in South Korea where they took the egg cells and implanted the nucleus of cells near the egg producing region of the body (sorry can’t recall the specifics). They successfully created a reproducing egg cell that went through all the stages producing human stem cells. They could have implanted it and they would have produced a human clone. And the genetic signature would not be different.

But all the same there is no magic as to why we produce bisexually. It is an adaptation to parasites and infectious diseases. They must adapt to their targets and if the targets change their genetic signatures from one generation to the next creates a moving target. Moving targets are harder to hit.

All human cells have a unique signature. It is called cellular specialization. A neuron is not the same as a liver cell. And a fertilized egg cell is different as well. But just as a single liver cell or nerve cell is not a human, a fertilized egg cell is also not human. It is a specialized cell that works in concert with a womb that creates a human. Not until there are billions of specialized cells working in concert in a way that creates a working healthy human being will it be human.

You have to learn to count.

Tell me starboy...if you have not always been a human being, what species did you belong to before you became human...

You accuse me of not knowing anything about biology and you ask this dumbass question? I was born a human, what is your excuse? Were you originally a toad and an angel zapped you with their magic finger and made you a human? Or were you not even as animated as a toad? Were you just a lump of clay?

Starboy

[Starboy]

I think it boils down to this and very well illustrates just how stupid the arguments are of those that would contend that a single cell is a human being.

If you went into a restaurant and ordered a tomato salad and the waiter returned with a dish with a few tomato seeds on it you would not be amused and no matter how often the waiter would insist that the tomato seeds were tomatoes you would not be satisfied. Even if he claimed that he was being very generous in placing ten tomatoes (as seeds) on the plate and that few other restaurants use that many tomatoes in a tomato salad.

Those that insist that a single fertilized cell is a human being are no different than that idiot waiter that insists that a tomato seed is a tomato.

Starboy

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Starboy . You accuse me of not knowing anything about biology and you ask this dumbass question? I was born a human, what is your excuse? Were you originally a toad and an angel zapped you with their magic finger and made you a human? Or were you not even as animated as a toad? Were you just a lump of clay? Starboy

First off, we aren't discussing science fiction...we are talking actual human beings...

Second, I asked the question for a reason and you answered exactly as I guessed that you would...you said that you were born human...what species do you suppose that you were before you were born?

It is like this starboy...you can trace the line of your life back to a singular moment in time...prior to that moment you did not exist...after that moment, the line of your life has stretched out, unbroken, to this very moment...

You been alive since the moment of your conception...we are either alive or we are dead...life is the quality that separates living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter...life is characterized by functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism. You have met this criteria and have been alive since the moment of your conception...

You also have been a human from the moment of your conception...You are not one whit more human today than you were 1 second after you were concieved...and if you live to be 150, you will not become more human by virtue of your age.. Our age in no way determines how human we are...it only determines how old of a human we are...

At your conception + 1 second, you looked and behaved exactly as a human being is supposed to look at that stage of your development...and at 2 weeks, you looked exactly as a human being is supposed to look at that stage of your development...and the day after you were born you looked as you were supposed to look and the day you got your drivers licence you looked as you were supposed to look...

Our bodies are undergoing constant change from the moment of our conception till the moment of our death...The change is is only change....the change in no way makes us more or less human...the change just makes us different....

At no point in your life were you like a red blood cell or a skin cell...you have been you...a living, growing, developing human being from the very beginning..Now if you are suggesting that you haven't been alive since your conception...since your life began, or that you haven't always been a human then I would ask for you to explain exactly what you were....If you indeed have always been a living human, then exactly the same is true for every other living human on this planet...born and unborn...

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder First off, we aren't discussing science fiction...we are talking actual human beings... Second, I asked the question for a reason and you answered exactly as I guessed that you would...you said that you were born human...what species do you suppose that you were before you were born? It is like this starboy...you can trace the line of your life back to a singular moment in time...prior to that moment you did not exist...after that moment, the line of your life has stretched out, unbroken, to this very moment... You been alive since the moment of your conception...we are either alive or we are dead...life is the quality that separates living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter...life is characterized by functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism. You have met this criteria and have been alive since the moment of your conception... You also have been a human from the moment of your conception...You are not one whit more human today than you were 1 second after you were concieved...and if you live to be 150, you will not become more human by virtue of your age.. Our age in no way determines how human we are...it only determines how old of a human we are... At your conception + 1 second, you looked and behaved exactly as a human being is supposed to look at that stage of your development...and at 2 weeks, you looked exactly as a human being is supposed to look at that stage of your development...and the day after you were born you looked as you were supposed to look and the day you got your drivers licence you looked as you were supposed to look... Our bodies are undergoing constant change from the moment of our conception till the moment of our death...The change is is only change....the change in no way makes us more or less human...the change just makes us different.... At no point in your life were you like a red blood cell or a skin cell...you have been you...a living, growing, developing human being from the very beginning..Now if you are suggesting that you haven't been alive since your conception...since your life began, or that you haven't always been a human then I would ask for you to explain exactly what you were....If you indeed have always been a living human, then exactly the same is true for every other living human on this planet...born and unborn...

The exact same thing can be said for a tomato seed. So you would gladly take it from the waiter and call it a tomato.

And by your argument as long as any of my cells is alive then I will still be alive. Even when I am dead? I am sure that my family will be glad to keep me around the house in a Petri dish and as long as they keep the cell culture going dear old dad is not dead. Do you think Social Security will still keep up the payments? Talk about the burden of the baby boomers on the system. Actually you may be onto something. A fool proof method on how to get rid of all the magical thinkers. We kill them all but keep their cell lines going and by their own argument they are not dead! So no murder no foul. Great idea!

You are completely ignoring one very important aspect about a living human being. A human is more than just the sum of its cells. A human being can be killed and yet every cell in their body can still be alive and functioning. What makes a human a human is not the sum of the cells but the particular interaction of the cells. It doesn't matter if there are human cells that collectively look like a human, if the do not work like a human then they are not human. There comes a time for all humans when the cells in their body for whatever reason stop working as a human being. Most of the cells are still alive but the human is dead. This is a fact of life. The opposite also holds. There come a time when a collection of cells in the womb becomes more than just a collection of cells and becomes a human. One cell just doesn't cut it. I don't care if it is a supercell. It is just a cell. A tomato seed is not a tomato. Everyone knows that you grow tomatoes from tomato seeds but only idiots think that they are tomatoes.

Starboy

[Pale RIder]

If those seeds are fertilized then indeed they are tomatoes...they simply haven't developed to the point at which you would want to eat them...and death happens in stages...if you are hit by a car and your systems are terminated, all the cells in your body will have ceased to function within about 30 minutes...the E coli and other forms of bacteria that continue on and start the process of decomposition are not your cells, they are symbiotes.

And again I ask, what species were you prior to being born...you were clearly alive because you were growing...if you were alive then you must have belonged to a particular species...in other words, you were a living, growing _______....I will let you fill in the blank...

[Gorgo]

All this talk about zygotes, etc. is important and interesting, but the most important point is that society has to draw the line somewhere or else you'd have some people dictating that no one could ever have sex. Doesn't matter if the fetus can be termed human by some. Society could draw the line at 4-year-olds. It's reasonable to draw the line at pre-birth, or at least the third trimester. Until birth, it is part of a woman's body, so let the woman decide.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Gorgo All this talk about zygotes, etc. is important and interesting, but the most important point is that society has to draw the line somewhere or else you'd have some people dictating that no one could ever have sex. Doesn't matter if the fetus can be termed human by some. Society could draw the line at 4-year-olds. It's reasonable to draw the line at pre-birth, or at least the third trimester. Until birth, it is part of a woman's body, so let the woman decide.

Our founding documents say that we have certain inalienable rights...one of those is the right to life...that right is ours by virtue of our humanity...not age, or class, or race, or religion...simply by virtue of being human...If you can demonstrate that somehow an unborn at some point is not a member of species homo sapiens, then we can start to discuss killing it in a rational manner...

And I don't think society would be saying that you can't have sex...I think that society would simply be saying that if you are going to have sex, be prepared to live with the consequences...just like you must accept the possible consequences of sky diving, or horse back riding, or walking in the road at night wearing dark clothing...

When Roe is struck down, there will be a monetary reason for the pharmaceutical companies to get to work on that perfect contraceptive...

Also, an unborn, at no stage is part of a woman's body...it's DNA clearly identifies it as a separate individual...it is dependent, but not part of her body...can you demonstrate some legal precedent that suggests that dependence is a valid reason to kill..

[Gorgo]

Our founding documents say that all men have inalienable rights. I'm not sure that you're saying that you want fetuses to vote and own property?

The fetus is clearly connected to the woman. It is inside her and dependent on her and does not have a car or a library card. The rest is just playing with words. Sperm is separate DNA from a woman, should it be killed? If a woman spontaneously aborts, should she be tried for manslaughter? If I imagine having a child, can that dream be killed?

No. Society has to draw the line somewhere, and for the sake of those that are already born, even the preconceived must often be exterminated.

[Pale RIder]

newborns don't vote and own property either...and voting and owning property are not inalienable rights anyway...but the right to life is...it is ours by virtue of our humanity and only by virtue of our humanity...

Newborns don't have cars or library cards...does that in some way make them less human?

Sperm is simply a cell...it is unique in the fact that it only has half a set of chromosomes...the same is true for eggs, they represent potential life...alone, they are just interesting sorts of cells and are no more valuable than fingernail clippings...once they have joined, however, both sperm and egg cease to exist and their potential has been realized...that is, they have formed a new life...and I agreed with you that the unborn is dependent upon its mother for survival...and I asked you to demonstrate some legal precedent that suggests that dependence is a valid reason to kill another..

If you die of a heart attack, should someone be charged in your death...a spontaneous abortion is simply a natural death..no one is to blame for a natural death...

If you imagine having a child, there is no being that exists in reality...quite unlike an unborn which does exist in reality...I don't know what happens when you stop dreaming a dream, but when an abortion is performed, a life is terminated...

And hitler, stalin, lenin, pol pot, and mao would all agree with you that some must be killed for the sake of those already alive...hell, it is policy in china today..but it doesn't jibe with the premis that the US was founded on which is why Roe will be struck down when it is heard again...

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder If those seeds are fertilized then indeed they are tomatoes...they simply haven't developed to the point at which you would want to eat them...and death happens in stages...if you are hit by a car and your systems are terminated, all the cells in your body will have ceased to function within about 30 minutes...the E coli and other forms of bacteria that continue on and start the process of decomposition are not your cells, they are symbiotes.

Very funny. You accuse me of not knowing anything about biology and yet you continue to make these dumbass statements. Keep it up and it will be obvious to all that you are a dumbass. And a dishonest dumbass because you will have known you are ignorant and rather then argue from knowledge you will persist to argue from ignorance and yet try to convince people that your argument should be taken seriously.

A seed is always fertilized. It is the equivalent of the single fertilized human cell ready to go. But it is easy to see that if you got your science from a bible that you would indeed be an ignoramus since they were very fond of calling sperm seed and not the fertilized egg. In fact in the bible they never make mention that women produces eggs at all. They referred to the womb is the soil to plant a man's seed in.

As for you car accident, so what? You can also be incinerated in a fire and not only will all your cells be fricasseed it will kill every cell in your body. But hey, why am I surprised that you do not get this. After all you think that arguments from ignorance are legitimate.

You can kill the brain of a human where most of the cells in the brain are alive but cease to function as a brain but all the primitive brain cells still function, all the cells in the entire body are still alive. And if you keep that thing on a feeding tube you will have something that is completely alive and yet is still a dead human. This fact appears to be lost on you. You do not seem able to see that this fact means that being human is not just about living cells. That if the cells do not operate in a specific way that the human is dead even though all the cells are alive. Now maybe you do understand this but refuse to admit it because if you did then you would have to admit that the opposite is also the case. That when a human is being constructed from a single cell that what starts off is only a living cell but that as cells are created at some point you get a human being. And this would shoot your entire argument to hell, not that it has not already been shot to hell since only an idiot would confuse a tomato seed with a tomato.

And again I ask, what species were you prior to being born...you were clearly alive because you were growing...if you were alive then you must have belonged to a particular species...in other words, you were a living, growing _______....I will let you fill in the blank...

What cell was a tomato cell before it was a tomato? A tomato seed. A tomato seed is not a tomato. What cell was a chicken cell before it was a chicken? An egg. Everyone knows that an egg is not a chicken. You know this and yet you refuse to acknowledge it. You keep repeating this lame mantra. A human cell is not a human. We don't call tomato seeds tomatoes for obvious reasons, we do not call eggs chickens for obvious reasons and we should not call a human cell a human for the same reasons.

Go learn to count.
Go get an education.
Learn how to tell the difference between a tomato and tomato seed, an egg and a chicken, and a single cell and a human.

Starboy

[Gorgo]

And George Bush and Ronald Reagan. People who said they cared about the life of those not yet born, but nothing about those that lived.

If you wish to take on the fetuses of those that wish to abort into your body and nourish them and bring them to birth, then you can talk about how you're saving lives. Otherwise, let's worry about taking care of those that have been born first.

Quote by: Pale RIder And hitler, stalin, lenin, pol pot, and mao would all agree with you that some must be killed for the sake of those already alive...hell, it is policy in china today..but it doesn't jibe with the premis that the US was founded on which is why Roe will be struck down when it is heard again...

[Pale RIder]

Actually starboy, I have a medical degree...I am a mere dentist, but I have biology and biochemistry up to and including the 5000 level. I don't discuss issues at that level out of courtesy to those who might read my posts...Talk of gymnosperms, endosporic microgametophytes, micropyles, ovules, angiosperms, and megasporophylls only serve to give one the appearance of elitism and either sends one's readers running back and forth to the dictionary, or gets one ignored altogether because of the gratuitous and pointless use of technical terms...

And I never inject religion into this discussion...if I couldn't defeat the pro life argument without religion, I would not engage in the discussion...we will note, that it is you who has brought religion into the discussion...

And now you are trying to make some comparison between a growing vital human being and one who has been the victim of some sort of massive trauma...you are certainly going to have to do better than that....

Quote by: pale rider And again I ask, what species were you prior to being born...you were clearly alive because you were growing...if you were alive then you must have belonged to a particular species...in other words, you were a living, growing _______....I will let you fill in the blank...

Quote by: star boy What cell was a tomato cell before it was a tomato? A tomato seed. A tomato seed is not a tomato. What cell was a chicken cell before it was a chicken? An egg. Everyone knows that an egg is not a chicken. You know this and yet you refuse to acknowledge it. You keep repeating this lame mantra. A human cell is not a human. We don't call tomato seeds tomatoes for obvious reasons, we do not call eggs chickens for obvious reasons and we should not call a human cell a human for the same reasons.

Do you see how twisted your argument is...it prevents you from even admitting that you have always been human...as if you have at some point been of some other species... And one really can't accurately compare plant biology to animal biology...The DNA inside a fertilized chicken egg is no longer that of either of its parents...it is a chicken embryo....it is a living, growing uniquie member of speices gallus domesticus. That is, it is a living growing chicken that is neither its father, nor its mother. To prove this point, why don't you go out and crack a few eagle's eggs...you will not be imprisoned breaking eggs, you will be imprisoned for killing harrassing and killing eagles...

Quote by: star boy We don't call tomato seeds tomatoes for obvious reasons, we do not call eggs chickens for obvious reasons and we should not call a human cell a human for the same reasons.

We also do not call newborns teenagers, or adolescents centigeneraians, or toddlers embryos...each of the names is a term that describes an individual at a particular stage of development..we also do not call zygotes cells for a very particular reason...they are not just cells, they are new members of whatever species they happen to belong to, unlike blood, or bone cells...

Again I ask you..before you were born you were a living growing member of what species?

By the way....not all seeds are fertile...pine trees are known for producing seeds without the presence of pollen...but many plants produce infirtile seeds...next time you load your bong look for hollow seeds...they are the ones that have not been fertilized....

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder Again I ask you..before you were born you were a living growing member of what species?

Biologically until an animal can reproduce it is technically not part of any species. In order for a species to be a species it must be able to reproduce, until then it could just be a sterile hybrid. The biological classification of species requires that they can persist across generations of that species. So technically until I was able to reproduce I was not fully vested as a member of the human species. And even then my offspring must also be able to reproduce. I have children, are you human yet? We humans however make the rules so I guess we can conflict with our own classifications any way we want. However all that amounts to is a special pleading and is not a very honest thing to do.

At least thirty percent of all pregnancy ends in natural abortion. Nature already practices abortion in far greater numbers than mankind ever has.

I am surprised that a medical doctor knows so little about biology. (Not really, dentistry is basically a trade degree. Just as one should not expect an EE to know all that much about physics.)

Starboy

[Lilith]

At least thirty percent of all pregnancy ends in natural abortion. Nature already practices abortion in far greater numbers than mankind ever has.

That is very true. But when nature does it, it's not murder, when a person does it, it is. I'm still pondering this dilemma.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Starboy Biologically until an animal can reproduce it is technically not part of any species. In order for a species to be a species it must be able to reproduce, until then it could just be a sterile hybrid. The biological classification of species requires that they can persist across generations of that species. So technically until I was able to reproduce I was not fully vested as a member of the human species. And even then my offspring must also be able to reproduce. I have children, are you human yet? We humans however make the rules so I guess we can conflict with our own classifications any way we want. However all that amounts to is a special pleading and is not a very honest thing to do. At least thirty percent of all pregnancy ends in natural abortion. Nature already practices abortion in far greater numbers than mankind ever has. I am surprised that a medical doctor knows so little about biology. (Not really, dentistry is basically a trade degree. Just as one should not expect an EE to know all that much about physics.) Starboy

See the corner that you have painted yourself into?...now you are saying that you were not human until you reached puberty...and had you been born sterile, you never would be human...This is the problem with trying to manipulate known facts into an improbable fantasy...you end up standing in a corner that you have painted for yourself looking quite stupid...imagine...according to you, none of us are human until we are old enough to reproduce...and if we never reproduce, we are never human...we don't even belong to a species...

and you question my education...

speices is simply a fundamental category of taxonomic classification, ranking below a genus or subgenus...it in no way requires reproduction, or red hair, or green eyes...or a dimple in your chin...Even sterile members of a species are vested members of that species by virtue of their genetic makeup...sterile members simply have a defect, they are not excluded because of a defect...one is not required to reproduce in order to be human, or any other species...

And most of us die of natural causes...natural causes do not constitute murder...murder is when one human kills another human with intent...

Now I ask again...before you were born, you were a living, growing, developing member of what species?

by the way...I had seriously considered biochemistry as my career choice...I have taken various math and physics courses up to and including the 5000 level as well..

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder See the corner that you have painted yourself into?...now you are saying that you were not human until you reached puberty...and had you been born sterile, you never would be human...This is the problem with trying to manipulate known facts into an improbable fantasy...you end up standing in a corner that you have painted for yourself looking quite stupid...imagine...according to you, none of us are human until we are old enough to reproduce...and if we never reproduce, we are never human...we don't even belong to a species...

It is not a corner that I paint myself into. We already do not recognize teenagers as full grown adults. We must somehow intuitively know that they are not. Gee I wonder why that is.

and you question my education..

If you don't like it then don't start it. I give as good as I get. When you first questioned my knowledge is when you opened your own knowledge up for questioning. If you don't like it then don't do it.

speices is simply a fundamental category of taxonomic classification, ranking below a genus or subgenus...it in no way requires reproduction, or red hair, or green eyes...or a dimple in your chin...Even sterile members of a species are vested members of that species..sterile members simply have a defect, they are not excluded because of a defect...one is not required to reproduce in order to be human, or any other species...

You asked the question, I answered it. Too bad you don't like the answer. It is a fact that being able to produce viable offspring is part of what constitutes a species. If you want to place man above nature then you have entered the realm of religious argument but if man is of nature then our understanding of nature is fair game in this discussion.

We are not talking about a specific member of a given species we are talking about all members. And the ability to reproduce is part of that classification.

And most of us die of natural causes...natural causes do not constitute murder...murder is when one human kills another human with intent...

Even those who are considered dead even though their bodies are alive? You have studiously ignored this point. This classification doesn't apply to some humans, it applies to all humans. That there is a classification of human life that is not completely described by the living state of the individual cells that make up that organism and yet the organism is still considered to be dead is a state of living organisms that you deliberately ignore. Yet this is how you want to simplistically frame the argument. Cells are alive therefore the human is alive. You know better yet you persist in your dishonest argument.

Now I ask again...before you were born, you were a living, growing, developing member of what species?

Same answer. Nothing has changed. Address the fact that people’s bodies can be alive but they are dead. Until you can do that you got bupkis.

by the way...I had seriously considered biochemistry as my career choice...I have taken various math and physics courses up to and including the 5000 level as well..

Good for you but biochemistry is still not biology. It is more like organic chemistry for cells. It is not as if they deal with multi-cellular organism as animals.

Starboy

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: star boy It is not a corner that I paint myself into. We already do not recognize teenagers as full grown adults. We must somehow intuitively know that they are not. Gee I wonder why that is.

I never said that we recognize teenagers as full grown adults...but they are human beings...it is you who has suggested that no one becomes a human being until he or she is able to reproduce...strike that, you said that we are not human beings until we HAVE reproduced...you most certainly are in a corner with that one and you simply are not going to be able to get out without first admitting how terribly wrong you are in such a silly assertion...children and adolescents not human...what a goofball...

Quote by: star boy You asked the question, I answered it. Too bad you don't like the answer. It is a fact that being able to produce viable offspring is part of what constitutes a species. If you want to place man above nature then you have entered the realm of religious argument but if man is of nature then our understanding of nature is fair game in this discussion.

It isn't that I don't like your answer..hell, I laugh out loud at your answer...How about you give me a link to some credible source that says that one does not become human until one is able to reproduce...for that matter, how about a credible source stating that any creature is not a member of its species until it can reproduce...

Quote by: star boy Even those who are considered dead even though their bodies are alive?...

Why don't you give an accurate description rather than trying to dance around the truth...the words you are looking for are brain dead...and again, one can not compare the condition of a human that is vital and growing to one who is injured and in the process of atrophy...in either case, growing, or dying both are human until body function ceases and a time of death is pronounced...

Note that in the medical jargon one is kept ALIVE by artificial means...not kept dead by artificial means..

Quote by: star boy Good for you but biochemistry is still not biology. It is more like organic chemistry for cells. It is not as if they deal with multi-cellular organism as animals.

Do you suppose that one just takes "bio chemistry" courses....is that your impression of higher education? Does it not occur to you that if one is to major in biochemistry that one must have a thourough education in both biology and chemistry...as well as math and physics? Maybe you should look up a generic cirriculum for biochemistry...

And still I wait for you to enlighten me as to what species you belonged to before you became a human....you realize that people are reading this don't you...how silly you must look to them suggesting that their kids have not yet become human...that unless they have kids of their own that they are not yet human...again...goofball comes to mind...