Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[Two Cents]

MB, I don't think there is awareness of self for a long time. Probably until the child can move unassisted (crawl, roll, sit up or walk) that does not mean it is not a viable human long before that.

[northtexan]

Quote by: MerlinsByte Merlin...No , but If you were in the poultry business and had a dozen fertilized chicken eggs in the incubator the odds are that they would produce fuzzy little chicks which would grow and thrive. Anyone with common sense should know this, Even the not so bright ones. mb

And you would also know that the early instructions for building those chicks came from the hen, but had to be included in the egg. In the human case, those early instructions would not be in the egg, because the egg would be inside a mother whose bodily secretions would guide that early development.

But those chicks would at some point develop their little bird brains and those brains would start to work. After that, they would have the potential to develop as far as chickens can.

And just the same, the developing human fetus starts developing nerve tissue fairly early, keeps going a builds a brain to receive impulses from those nerves; and at a certain point, about 22 weeks gestational, that brain boots up and starts working. After that point, a human person MIGHT develop, although we don't know enough to determine when one in fact does. Before that point, there can be no human person -- empty house, still being built from blueprints and with any alterterations occasioned by supplies (nutrients) actually delivered, nobody home yet. Don't bring out the welcome wagon at least until the brain waves are a coursing through that brain. And, yeah, it's a much-more interesting and valuable organism than one of those chickens.

[northtexan]

Quote by: Two Cents MB, I don't think there is awareness of self for a long time. Probably until the child can move unassisted (crawl, roll, sit up or walk) that does not mean it is not a viable human long before that.

You don't think one thing; I don't think another. How can we know? I argue that the EARLIEST possible point is at brain birth. Society accepts the conferring of all rights to humanhood (though not, of course, adulthood) at birth. Does self-awareness come later? I don't think it comes as late as you suggest, but I don't know. But if it's after birth, it's a moot point legally.

[carriew]

actually implantation occurs around day 8 or 10 the cell is divided by then.

I am a wonder

and there are plenty of ways I could cause myself to abort if I felt the need.
and invitro makes more twins then in the normal population.

the divisions that make an egg one two three or more happens before implantaion. even can have 2 babies implant and one dissapear and assimilate the other twins dna into the surviving twin.


You have it right...partly

brain waves are detected in a fetus at 43 days
post fertilization.

and the fetus is the one who controls the mothers body not the other way around...

first the egg follicle bursts it leaves behild a shell called the corptus lutem that causes a high enough level of progesterone to avoid shedding of your uterine lining untill the fetus implants itself around day 8 and starts secreting hcg into the mohters blood stream to avoid menses. and thus continuse to manulipulate the mothers hormones untill it is ready to be born.

[MerlinsByte]

northtexan ....I dont agree with you, but I respect your opinions and the way that you responded. It was a well thought out response.

[northtexan]

Quote by: MerlinsByte northtexan ....I dont agree with you, but I respect your opinions and the way that you responded. It was a well thought out response.

Ok, good, that's one step. Now, the tough one for everyone: what don't you agree with? why? It's when we get into such discussions that maybe something worthwhile can happen. At least it might be possible to get beyond simply throwing the same mud (or maybe bombs would be a better metaphor) back and forth.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: MerlinsByte It was a parody, to show the folly of the authors words. No one has answered when the egg cell or fetus becomes self aware. Anyone care to answer that? If no one can then one must admit that an abortion at any stage in pregnancy may be killing a self aware being, and this does not take into account (for the religious types) when the soul is instilled. So I ask a simple question and no one has the answer? mb

Are you in the 3rd grade? You asked a question and answered it IN THE SAME POST. How can I answer your question if I haven't even read it yet? Typical.

OK. So assuming we don't know when the organism becomes self-aware, then why make the decision to ban abortions if we don't even know if the organism is aware it's even alive?

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: carriew well there ia a price difference between large and small eggs why not between eggs and chicken see I can and do pay different prices for cooked food and uncooked food you make no sense....

Actually, there is a signifigant difference between unfertilized eggs at the grocery store, and immature chickens from a chiken breeder. That is because at the grocery store you are buying eggs, and from the breeder you are buying chickens. Starboy doesn't recognize this because it removes the foundation blocks from his house of lies.

Sad to build an argument upon one unsubstantiated phrase repeated over and over.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: carriew maybe not to you I believe it is... Prove me wrong with real facts...

That is the rub. You can effortlessly produce mountains of scientific fact to support your argument that we are human beings (although immature) from the moment of our conception. Pro choicers, on the other hand, simply repeat an unsubstantiated, uncoroborated mantra over and over in the hopes that you won't notice that they are never going to produce a shred of evidence that supports the idea that the offspring of two human beings is ever anything but a human being.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: northtexan Now, to get back to humanity, when a human egg is fertilized, its early development is guided by the mother's body; and through the entire pregnancy, its development is determined by, so highly-sensitive to, the nutrition reaching it. The fertilized egg may develop into a single person; or if it splits, it may develop into two or more persons. Two fertilized eggs, on the rare occasions that they occur, can even merge to form a single person. What divides and keeps dividing has no consciousness, no thoughts at all, initially no sensations. It cannot possibly have such things until it has a working brain, at about 22 weeks. After that, it might develop consciousness, self-consciousness, in effect become a person. We don't know (but we can give the benefit of the doubt). Before that, it is not a human person, cannot be a human person.

Perhaps some biology lessons would be prudent for you as well. From the moment of conception, the unborn is in charge. It begins immediately to release complex chemical receptors and hormones that send the mother into "pregnancy" mode. It directs her immune system to recognize it as a normal part of her body (even though it is not) so that it will not be attacked as an invading virus.

If the mother were in charge, she would not have to contract a killer to get it out of her body.

I asked starboy to deliver some evidence that the offspring of two humans is something other than a human from even the earliest moments, he failed miserably, repeating the unsubstantiated mantra that an egg is not a chicken...perhaps you could kindly produce some evidence that we are not human beings from the moment of our conception.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: northtexan And you would also know that the early instructions for building those chicks came from the hen, but had to be included in the egg. In the human case, those early instructions would not be in the egg, because the egg would be inside a mother whose bodily secretions would guide that early development. But those chicks would at some point develop their little bird brains and those brains would start to work. After that, they would have the potential to develop as far as chickens can. And just the same, the developing human fetus starts developing nerve tissue fairly early, keeps going a builds a brain to receive impulses from those nerves; and at a certain point, about 22 weeks gestational, that brain boots up and starts working. After that point, a human person MIGHT develop, although we don't know enough to determine when one in fact does. Before that point, there can be no human person -- empty house, still being built from blueprints and with any alterterations occasioned by supplies (nutrients) actually delivered, nobody home yet. Don't bring out the welcome wagon at least until the brain waves are a coursing through that brain. And, yeah, it's a much-more interesting and valuable organism than one of those chickens.

You, like starboy and many others, seem to have some very childlike misunderstandings regarding development, human or otherwise.

The hen provides an egg, the rooster provides sperm, the two combine to provide a totipotent cell that is already a chicken, albeit an immature chicken. It has all the instructions that it needs in order to mature. The fact that a brain develops has nothing to to with its "chickenness"

As to humans, the unborn directs the pregnancy. Immediately after fertilization is complete, the unborn begins to communicate chemically with the mother's body. by excreting human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) It directs the mother's body to secrete progesterone and estrogen in order to prepare the endometrium for implantation. This secretion of estrogen and progesterone creates a number of changes in the mother's tissues.

The progesterone acts upon the mother's reproductive systems directing the uterus to develop additional folicles and inhibiting contractions. Throughout the pregnancy, fetoplacental estrogens, progestogens and adrenocorticoids are secreted into maternal circulation. While she is pregnant, estrogen production is directed by the unborn and this is its primary signaling method for directing physiologic processes that support its growth.

The development of a brain in no way changes or enhances its development. It never "thinks" about growing toes, or developing a liver. All that is already programmed and the development of a brain happens in the same manner as the development of toenails. I am not sure where you get your 22 week mark. Neuroscientists have suggested for decades that unborns be administered a general anesthetic prior to abortion after 8 weeks since they feel the exquisite agony of being torn apart just as you would.

So...now that you know that your pro choice stance has been supported by a gross misunderstanding of the biology of human development, does it change your position, or was all the talk just talk?

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: MerlinsByte northtexan ....I dont agree with you, but I respect your opinions and the way that you responded. It was a well thought out response.

Not well though out at all. Completely unresearched and incorrect more accurately describes his opinion and response.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder That is the rub. You can effortlessly produce mountains of scientific fact to support your argument that we are human beings (although immature) from the moment of our conception.

Yeah right. I'm still waiting on the one quote.

Starboy

[MerlinsByte]

by pale rider..Actually, there is a signifigant difference between unfertilized eggs at the grocery store, and immature chickens from a chiken breeder. That is because at the grocery store you are buying eggs, and from the breeder you are buying chickens. Starboy doesn't recognize this because it removes the foundation blocks from his house of lies. Sad to build an argument upon one unsubstantiated phrase repeated over and over.

Yes, it is sad and redundant. Starboy has improved and is a bit nicer. This at least allows me to communicate with him instead of exchanging insults. While this chicken and egg thing sounds silly it illustrates the thought processes of each side. Thanks for your response PR.

mb

[MerlinsByte]

Northtexan I'm not ignoring you just doing a bit of research. I will reply soon.

mb

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Starboy Yeah right. I'm still waiting on the one quote. Starboy

I referenced text in the 6th edition as well as the 5th. If and that is a big IF you have either book, you can look back and find my reference to text in either.

You might also apologize for the lies, otherwise I don't have much else to say to you.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder I referenced text in the 6th edition as well as the 5th. If and that is a big IF you have either book, you can look back and find my reference to text in either. You might also apologize for the lies, otherwise I don't have much else to say to you.

What lies? I have the book, I have looked. I have found nothing that indicates that a single cell of any kind is a human being. As I have said before, I can't find it. You say it is there. So fine, post the quote. That is all you have to do. This has nothing to do with my honesty. If it will make you feel better think anything you like about me. But it is your claim. Until you can substantiate your claim with a quote then it is your honesty that is in question, not mine.

Starboy

[carriew]

just incase some of you aren't following the is a fertilized ovum a living member of its species thread ill repost it.
"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]

http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/ar...yoquotes2.html

now its your turn

if you want more proof check these out also

http://www.prolifephysicians.org/lifebegins.htm

http://www.epm.org/articles/life_conception.html
http://www.etters.net/WDLB4.htm

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/francis_beckwith_004.htm

http://www.global-gts.com/gt00131.htm

http://www.prolife.com/life_begins.html

http://www.visembryo.com/baby/index.html

ADDED www.michaelclancy.com

[Starboy]

Quote by: carriew "The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote." [Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]

Notice the word "development". The development of a house begins with a foundation, but a foundation is not a house. Just as it takes more than a foundation for something to be a house it takes more then a single cell to be a human being.

Also what results is a new organism. It is a cell. All cells are organisms. A skin cell is an organism. You can grow human cells in a Petri dish. However no one would mistake a human skin cell for a human being and therefore a zygote is not a human being. You see a human being takes a whole lot more than one cell in order to be a human being. One cell just isn't going to do it, no matter how special you think that cell is.

Starboy

[carriew]

i am still in development am i not a being.
enough trickery of words and simantics do you have proof or what. I want someone elses (an authority)word not just your opinion.