Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[Starboy]

Quote by: carriew I do not flush my fertilized ovum down the toilet. and if you are in anyway confused by my first post.. I am the one who thinks *not confuses* that a fertilized ovum is different from the unfertilized egg i shed every month. actually I would say I know because there are only a few of us in this conversation that have the biological capabilities to do what you think.. and I sir am one. so dont you presume to tell me that your OPINION is better than mine.

But you appear to be a person that doesn't realize that living is killing. That life kills life on a massive scale every day. That nature is bloody in tooth and claw. That killing life is not something to be squimish about. Unless of course you live such a sheltered life that you have managed to fool yourself that you are not a killer. The only difference between killing and murder is that killing things that are not human beings is not murder.

Starboy

[carriew]

I disagree again starboy If I go outback and beat my dog to death it is murder...

even punishable by law

I am not nieve I do realize what you say and I believe you know what i meant and mean if you read thru my posts I already addressed this.. I try not to kill for any other reason but to stay alive... which means eating plants and killing bugs sometimes..(i even eat meat but I could not go and kill the cow to eat I would in fact eat plants if I had to to the killing myself.

nothing that you have said about what i eat and excrete has convinced me that it is ok to kill a human ovum...

[Starboy]

Quote by: carriew I disagree again starboy If I go outback and beat my dog to death it is murder... even punishable by law

Killing your dog is not murder. People kill their dogs all the time. But being cruel to your dog is illegal even if it doesn't result in its death.

I am not nieve I do realize what you say and I believe you know what i meant and mean if you read thru my posts I already addressed this.. I try not to kill for any other reason but to stay alive... which means eating plants and killing bugs sometimes..(i even eat meat but I could not go and kill the cow to eat I would in fact eat plants if I had to to the killing myself. nothing that you have said about what i eat and excrete has convinced me that it is ok to kill a human ovum...

And why is it so important that you stay alive at the expense of all the life that is killed that now no longer gets to be alive? At the end of the day it is because you are not a potential human being but an actual human being and as an actual human being you live your life to your benifit. And women who get an abortion of a potential human life for their own beinifit have has good a reason to do so as you do for killing. But if you don't like the concept no one is forcing to get an abortion. So don't get one but do not make these lame arguments about killing because your hands are as red with killing as any other persons.

Starboy

[carriew]

I disagree
But thats ok

I am not saying that I am trying to stop anyone from doing anything I am stating what I feel and believe for myself and my family...

the only problem I have is that some of these women are lied to before they have thier abortions.. they are told its a blob when in fact it has arms and legs and a brain with brainwaves and all I have a niece that was born 2 mnths early and she is a very happy healthy 8 yr old now. there are women who have abortions at the time in thier pregnancy everyday in this world and not know that the baby is able to survive on its own.

Hey if you know all the facts and you decide to do that anyway that is between you your doctor god.

I am against the uneducated people who make a decision they would not have made had they had all the information...its not like its not out there.

In the end there is no right or wrong its what you believe...

I think that every one should do what they believe is right and I believed it was right for me to share my opinion...


in the case of being an american and living in america I vote my concience and try not to do harm...

What would you have me do just because I eat and shit does not make me the same person that uses abortion as birth control.. and if it does then you are not as intellegent as I gave you credit for.

I am not saying that you are wrong just that we disagree and I am willing to bet that nothing you can say to me here is going to change my opinion about this but you can keep tryin if you like lol...

[Starboy]

If you are concerned about lying you should be even more incensed at all the woman that are being told that a single cell is a human being. There is far more of that kind of lying going on than the other kind.

Starboy

[carriew]

I dont think they are...I dont think thats actually a lie

they get calanders with every stage of development that show exactly what develops when...the ones who continue their pregnancies anyhow.(and I admit some dont care to know because it makes the decision easier for them to not know)

I am concerned more with truth tho than lies I have to admit.

I dont know I thought I cleared up my belief in the first post

I believe that a life begins at conception and that with each conception there is a being that was never there before...

I belive the same to be true of cat ovum and dog ovum too

I dont lie it is thier child period! at any number of cells if left alone it will grow if you kill it it cannot.. simple as that.

No lies

[Starboy]

A belief is not the "truth" unless your definition of "truth" is belief. If that is the case then why should others accept your "truth"? So you think that a single cell is a human being. Do you think that a chicken egg is a chicken? If not then why not and if so then why?

Starboy

[carriew]

we speak alot about thruths lies and belief I do know that they are not interchangable...

I state what I know as my belief about when life actually begins because I know I dont have or understand all of the facts...(and hate to burst your bubble neither do you)

and the truth well I believe that truth is something that can be proven or not disproven...a fact. i have very recently read the definition of truth because I just go into this with someone else on a different board.

If life does not begin at conception then when do you think it begins
not when is it self aware or has xnumber of brain cells. or when it gets a soul. I personally believe that it alive at the moment of conception and is self aware with a soul sometime therafter BUT AGAIN I WILL ADMIT NOONE KNOWS ANYTHING FOR CERTIAN...

enlighten me please WHEN IS IT ALIVE, the actual moment, and untill you can prove that with a fact you wont change my mind.

i dont want to hear any self aware , tomato seeds and tomatoes, chicken in the egg arguments I read thru the last 100 or so pages before I posted and I saw that argumant and I was not impressed then they make no sense to me now.My answer yes the egg is a chicken if its a fertilized growing chicken egg duh.

personally Id rather be wrong and not have an abortion than to have one and find out I was wrong and I just killed someone (my child someone who imho I should love and keep safe.)

the truth is niether one of us know who is right or when life actually begins.
I can admit that can you.

[carriew]

and no I do not believe that my opinion is the truth nor did I ask anyone to accept it. It is what it is and thats an OPINION!

the truth is a fact and if we had all the facts we wouldnt need to discuss this because there would be no debate...

[CallousGiant]

It's alive (or rather living) from the beginning. Isn't the argument when does it become a separate organism from the mother? I would say birth, thats when the fetus becomes no longer dependant on the mother for things such as oxygen. So in my honest opinion, I would not say the fetus becomes a baby until it is born, until then it is a part of the mother, and the mother has the right to do things to her body, including have an abortion.

[Starboy]

carriew, life came into existence over 3.5 billion years ago. It has formed a long chain where every link in the chain is alive. And that life has evolved to live off of other life. Human life came into existence about 1 million years ago. All human life is linked to all previous human life which is linked to all previous life on the planet. Every cell in your body is a human life but every cell in your body is not a human being. A human being is a collection of trillions of cells that must work in concert and correctly in order to create a human being. A human being is a super form of life just as all multi-cellular organisms are a super form of life. A human being is a super form of life composed of living human life. However we have no compunction with killing human life. We do it all the time. We perform plastic surgery which kills billions of skin cells. We get sun tanned which kills more. We engage in sports that cause injury of all kinds which kill all sorts of cells. We get our tonsils and appendix removed, we have warts and other grows removed. We have no problems killing human life. We do have a problem with killing human beings. Until what is in the womb has become a large enough collection of cells with human life to be able to perform in some sense as the super form of life, the multi-cellular creature we call a human being, then it is not a human being and we should have no more compunction about killing it then we have about killing any other human life. So at a minimum what is in the womb must have an almost complete brain in order to be a candidate for a living human being. Until that point it is still in the potential human being category. And potential human beings are not actual human beings no more than a chicken egg (potential chicken) is a chicken.

Starboy

[carriew]

what if it could live totally independant of its mother should it be killed then?

I understand every word you just wrote starboy and I do not disagree with most of it.

the very beginning came long ago but your life time span only since you were concieved...

nice try tho.

still havent convinced me that it is ok to kill a fertilized egg.

I do not believe that a fertilized egg is the same as plant life or a discarded call that has completed its entire purpose. a cell that has become all it ever was supposed to become and lived to fullfill its total potential eg a breast...

the fertilized egg is on the beginning of its life not already completed its life cycle.

they are not one in the same...

[carriew]

i say a potential chicken is a chicken you couldnt say it was a cow... lol

well You probably could lol

[Starboy]

Quote by: carriew i say a potential chicken is a chicken you couldnt say it was a cow... lol well You probably could lol

Fine then, see how the cashier will laugh when you try to get the same price of a dozen eggs for a dozen chickens.

Starboy

[carriew]

well there ia a price difference between large and small eggs why not between eggs and chicken see I can and do pay different prices for cooked food and uncooked food you make no sense....

[Starboy]

If a human egg is a human being then a chicken egg is a chicken. Try to convince the cashier of that. And see who is laughing then.

Starboy

[carriew]

you didnt answer me you already pay a different price for large xtra large and small eggs a whole lot more of chicken would obviously be a different price

Or do you just not have a reply to that???

[carriew]

Quote by: Starboy Fine then, see how the cashier will laugh when you try to get the same price of a dozen eggs for a dozen chickens. Starboy

TRUE STORY ALERT!!

I was carded for cigarettes(i quit 6yrs ago)when I was 18 I lived on my own in my own apt and this kid behind the cash register refused my ID proof that I was 18 yrs old saying that I wasn't not that my id was fake but that I was 17... it took 15 minutes of arguing with the guy to get my smokes... I finally counted it off for him and told him to go back to school.


so let me just ask you this.

you want me for to accept your truth as to when life begins on account of what a cashier knows...i think i just peed myself laughing over here now it just gets better and better...graspin at staws are we?

You let them lead your life and make your decisions for you ill stick to what I know ok...

[carriew]

I have just one more argument to make here...

where I am from you are not allowed to kill yourself. they will take you and lock you up forever if they have to... they put prisioners on death row on suicide watch. You are just not allowed.


You are not allowed to take one of your wital organs out to give to someone else. If my child needed a heart transplant and mine matched sitting here as a 28 yr old person of sound mind would not be able to have my heart removed in essence kill my self even to save the life of a child...

infants that have no brain still can be born alive and breathe on their own and suck to eat but die within a few days. the parents of such an infant cannot donate those organs untill the baby is totally dead and by that time it dies the organs are no good...

If my child is born with any kind of disease and isnt expected to live a very long life lets say average life expectancy for the problem is 5 I am not allowed to kill it. but I could if it was 1 day before it was born.

this makes sense to you people...

cause it sure dont to me

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: carriew I have just one more argument to make here... where I am from you are not allowed to kill yourself. they will take you and lock you up forever if they have to... they put prisioners on death row on suicide watch. You are just not allowed. You are not allowed to take one of your wital organs out to give to someone else. If my child needed a heart transplant and mine matched sitting here as a 28 yr old person of sound mind would not be able to have my heart removed in essence kill my self even to save the life of a child... infants that have no brain still can be born alive and breathe on their own and suck to eat but die within a few days. the parents of such an infant cannot donate those organs untill the baby is totally dead and by that time it dies the organs are no good... If my child is born with any kind of disease and isnt expected to live a very long life lets say average life expectancy for the problem is 5 I am not allowed to kill it. but I could if it was 1 day before it was born. this makes sense to you people... cause it sure dont to me

Well guys, I'm on her side. Good examples.

The religious philosophies love life so much that they will do anything to preserve it, even if it means hurting the family. Who wants to live 5 years? You just start to begin understanding your surroundings by that time. It's more sad to see a life forced to live than it is seeing a possible life die.