Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

SoccerfreakAB2 · Jul 21, 2005, 02:01 am

Yes, but who are we to say what our own limits are. You cannot tell someone who wanted three kids all her life, that even though she can only support one, she can't have the other two. Sure, it's common sense. But sometimes our other emotions take control of us and we make stupid decisions. Unless you wanted to pull a Chinese manuever and place a limit of the number of children of course. It's just another rough line product of our economy. The fact that she has three children may make her feel wealthier than others, even though she is blinded by the lust for three children rather than considering and weighing the consequences.

Two Cents · Jul 21, 2005, 09:32 am

What I'm saying is to be responsible for all the children you choose to bring into the world. While I'm working to support mine I don't want to support yours. I had to work very hard to feed my child and others are just having them and expecting help.

I don't think, in general, you can raise responsible independant children when they are raised in an environment that society owes them since the mother used society for the money to raise them.

This is a wonderful country and that can be seen from all the immigrants who come here to experience the American way. They were not lucky enough to be born into a country where we take for granted free education and all the other priveleges our society has given us.

I also said that when you feel your family is complete sterilization is a good choice, that is when you are sure you don't want anymore under any circumstances.

This is of course another issue than when does life begin.

ibm · Jul 21, 2005, 09:39 am

so the poor should not have children, ever? say a poor family cannot afford any child without at least some public money - in that case they should not have any, not even one, eh?

SoccerfreakAB2 · Jul 21, 2005, 07:35 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ibm

so the poor should not have children, ever? say a poor family cannot afford any child without at least some public money - in that case they should not have any, not even one, eh?

Maybe we should sterilize them too just to make sure...lol.

Two Cents · Jul 21, 2005, 09:37 pm

ibm, I certaintly wasn't rich and didn't get much help from her father who is wealthy I did work 2 and 3 jobs to support her so if you so much want a child get out there and go to work. I was a debt collector for years and heard all kinds of excuses why people cannot make a payment on a new car they couldn't afford in the first place and then would blame the bank for giving them the loan. Same thing to me, if you can't afford it don't get it. This is a country of free choice. Don't have enough money?, go get a second job.

ibm · Jul 21, 2005, 09:53 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Two Cents

ibm, I certaintly wasn't rich and didn't get much help from her father who is wealthy I did work 2 and 3 jobs to support her so if you so much want a child get out there and go to work. I was a debt collector for years and heard all kinds of excuses why people cannot make a payment on a new car they couldn't afford in the first place and then would blame the bank for giving them the loan. Same thing to me, if you can't afford it don't get it. This is a country of free choice. Don't have enough money?, go get a second job.

2 cents, your thoughts are certainly respectable and have merits. everyone should work and earn what one deserves. but a child is not a normal commodity like a car. you know what i am saying. so ideas such as to sterilize people who can't totally support their children financially are just wrong imo. it's impractical, too.

SoccerfreakAB2 · Jul 21, 2005, 10:36 pm

Much of the time the people who do want to make these decisions without thinking clearly do it because they want to live like the rest of society. Even if I didn't have a lot of money, for instance, I would still want children, a nice car, and other things that would make me feel happy in a society like this one. All the theists should know that many are living life like they are going to die tomorrow, so why not make those decisions. They figure why worry about others' taxes when they are the poor ones in the first place. When you think about it, they are right. The poorer ones are the people who wish only to have the conveniences like cars, kids, a nice house, good looks, etc. just like everyone else. We'll never stop that with the type of economic society we live in.

Two Cents · Jul 21, 2005, 10:46 pm

I said that when you are done having a family. If you reread it you will see that. I'm not saying that if you're poor you should be sterilized. Just that you have to work a little harder than someone who can afford any luxury they want. People who have children and can't afford them should not depend on Social Services for the money to raise them. It was not created for that but for people who suffered sudden illness, death of a spouse, a sick child that needs specialized medical care, someone who for whatever reason can no longer work but has worked and paid into the system. It was supposed to be a safety net until other help was available. It was not supposed used instead of a job so people could have all the children they think they have the "right" to have. Too many people have a feeling of entitlement and are irresponsible.

SoccerfreakAB2 · Jul 21, 2005, 11:09 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Two Cents

I said that when you are done having a family. If you reread it you will see that. I'm not saying that if you're poor you should be sterilized. Just that you have to work a little harder than someone who can afford any luxury they want. People who have children and can't afford them should not depend on Social Services for the money to raise them. It was not created for that but for people who suffered sudden illness, death of a spouse, a sick child that needs specialized medical care, someone who for whatever reason can no longer work but has worked and paid into the system. It was supposed to be a safety net until other help was available. It was not supposed used instead of a job so people could have all the children they think they have the "right" to have. Too many people have a feeling of entitlement and are irresponsible.

Two Cents, in a perfect world, you are entirely right. But for some reason, people do not think that way. And it's sad. It makes so much sense to say, well I have little money, so MAYBE I'll just have one child, instead of four. But for some reason, too many people live in the moment and decide that they are going to die in 50 years anyways so why not screw over all these other people and I'll just abuse the system. It's so easy to do, so why not? That's their philosophy, and at the same time it really does make sense. They are living the life they want, while we pay for it, while still keeping in mind that they don't care about others. That will never, ever change, as long as their is always a lower class.

jai_lyn7249 · Jul 21, 2005, 11:49 pm

[B
I personally believe life starts at conception as soon as the sperm enters the egg i also believe that abortion should be made illegal it is wrong it is cruel and you should protect yourself or abstain if you dont want children. a baby in the womb had perfectly formed feet at 10 weeks old and a heartbeat how could you consider killing something that is going to be human
............. just like yourself.................i say if you consider abortion ok then maybe your mother shouldve killed you and stop the cycle of murder

Starboy · Jul 21, 2005, 11:54 pm

Quote:

Quote by: jai_lyn7249

[B
I personally believe life starts at conception as soon as the sperm enters the egg i also believe that abortion should be made illegal it is wrong it is cruel and you should protect yourself or abstain if you dont want children. a baby in the womb had perfectly formed feet at 10 weeks old and a heartbeat how could you consider killing something that is going to be human
............. just like yourself.................i say if you consider abortion ok then maybe your mother shouldve killed you and stop the cycle of murder

Great logic. Why don't you kill yourself and stop the vicious cycle of people who want to see other people dead.

Starboy

jai_lyn7249 · Jul 21, 2005, 11:59 pm

i never said i wanted anyone dead
read it again i said maybe thats what you mother shouldve done if you believe in it
makes you think.....

SoccerfreakAB2 · Jul 22, 2005, 01:06 am

Quote:

Quote by: jai_lyn7249

[B
I personally believe life starts at conception as soon as the sperm enters the egg i also believe that abortion should be made illegal it is wrong it is cruel and you should protect yourself or abstain if you dont want children. a baby in the womb had perfectly formed feet at 10 weeks old and a heartbeat how could you consider killing something that is going to be human
............. just like yourself.................i say if you consider abortion ok then maybe your mother shouldve killed you and stop the cycle of murder

That is not thought out enough. I wouldn't care at all if my mom had an abortion on me. Know why? Because I wouldn't even know what happened. I wouldn't have been capable of thought or memory at that point. The production of my brain would still be in progress. So how can you ask us that if we would be dead anyways?

Two Cents · Jul 22, 2005, 01:07 am

Soccerfreak, that's exactly what I'm talking about. If you raise one child with a sense of responsibility to society they will give to society. If you raise 4 children and inflict them on society then they will think they are entitled and don't care about the people who are paying their way.

SoccerfreakAB2 · Jul 22, 2005, 01:15 am

Quote:

Quote by: Two Cents

Soccerfreak, that's exactly what I'm talking about. If you raise one child with a sense of responsibility to society they will give to society. If you raise 4 children and inflict them on society then they will think they are entitled and don't care about the people who are paying their way.

I find that all of this entirely fits my train of thought, but that's why I fight for abortions. Maybe you look at the same viewpoint at another angle, even though its on the same track as mine. I don't want others to be inflicted onto society.

Kuldeep · Jul 22, 2005, 01:41 am

Quote:

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2

I find that all of this entirely fits my train of thought, but that's why I fight for abortions. Maybe you look at the same viewpoint at another angle, even though its on the same track as mine. I don't want others to be inflicted onto society.

Mine is similar train of thought, but on little different rails. Please go through the thread "Who we are in reality and at what point of time in life we become that ? and give your openion since, you do believe that you are not you unless you have a fully formed brain!!!!!!

Starboy · Jul 22, 2005, 09:19 am

Quote:

Quote by: jai_lyn7249

i never said i wanted anyone dead
read it again i said maybe thats what you mother shouldve done if you believe in it
makes you think.....

Your sentiment is clear. You think that people who have abortions should have been killed by their mothers. Have a nice day.

Starboy

Two Cents · Jul 22, 2005, 10:20 am

Soccerfreak, I also don't think abortion should be banned but know exactly what it is you are doing and what (whom) you are doing it to. If done it should be very early before the child is formed or can be aware of anything being done to it. I don't like the thought of abortion but know it can be neccessary for some and I won't condemn them for doing what they think is best. Partial birth and late term abortion should be totally banned.

It does look as though we are thinking along the same lines and I know what I speak of because I had only one child and knew I could only afford that one and I had sterilization done. I always wanted more but sometimes sacrifices are called for to fulfill the promise to the child you already have. We had some very hard times and I had to leave her for long periods of time to work and this was not always the best for her. I regret the time I had to work and couldn't be there but she now understands that I did the best I could under the circumstances.

My daughter is totally independant, owns a small business, a house and is an excellant mother. I think I did the job for her that I was supposed to do.. I taught her to depend on herself and never stop trying to better her life.

jai_lyn7249 · Jul 22, 2005, 11:01 am

Quote:

Quote by: Starboy

Your sentiment is clear. You think that people who have abortions should have been killed by their mothers. Have a nice day.

Starboy

starboy........
i am saying i dont believe in abortion. what exactly are your views would you kill an innocent child when there are plenty of people out there who cant have children and would love to raise it and give that child a great life...
i myself have two beautiful daughters and i look at them everyday and thank god i have them. they are little people and i think abortion should be made illegal... my opinion and if you have a problem with my opinion then do us both a favor and dont read my posts....
have a nice day too

Starboy · Jul 22, 2005, 01:13 pm

Quote:

Quote by: jai_lyn7249

starboy........
i am saying i dont believe in abortion. what exactly are your views would you kill an innocent child when there are plenty of people out there who cant have children and would love to raise it and give that child a great life...
i myself have two beautiful daughters and i look at them everyday and thank god i have them. they are little people and i think abortion should be made illegal... my opinion and if you have a problem with my opinion then do us both a favor and dont read my posts....
have a nice day too

It would be one thing if you had stopped at "a baby in the womb had perfectly formed feet at 10 weeks old and a heartbeat how could you consider killing something that is going to be human". That is your opinion. It is not a very well informed opinion but it is yours and you are welcome to it. But when you posted this, "i say if you consider abortion ok then maybe your mother shouldve killed you and stop the cycle of murder" then you went too far. You were advocating murder. You suggested that a person who had an abortion should have been killed by their mother. There is no other way to read this.

No I do not think that a single cell, no matter how special it may be is anything more than a single cell. A single cell is not a human being. One thousand specialized cells is also not a human being. A billion specialized cells is not a human being. At some point during gestation it can be considered to be a human being but aborting it anytime before that is not killing a person. So murder is not involved.

Now if you want to think that a single cell or a clump of cells is a human being then fine. No one is forcing you to have an abortion. Have as many kids as you like, but you better take good care of them. And if you can't then you might be better off having an abortion if for no other reason then you will have more time and resources to care for the children you have.

But no matter how you feel about the status of a single cell or a clump of cells being a human being I have to wonder how good a mother you could be if you think that it would have been better if someone's mother had killed them.

Starboy

View Poll Results: When does life begin?
At conception	245	45.79%
At birth	128	23.93%
Other..explain	162	30.28%
Voters: 535. You may not vote

Jul 21, 2005, 09:39 am	#1003 (permalink) (top)
ibm Igneous Magma Posts: 672	so the poor should not have children, ever? say a poor family cannot afford any child without at least some public money - in that case they should not have any, not even one, eh? economic left/right: -3.38 social libertarian/authoritarian: -3.59

Jul 22, 2005, 10:20 am	#1018 (permalink) (top)
Two Cents Molten Ash Posts: 57	Soccerfreak, I also don't think abortion should be banned but know exactly what it is you are doing and what (whom) you are doing it to. If done it should be very early before the child is formed or can be aware of anything being done to it. I don't like the thought of abortion but know it can be neccessary for some and I won't condemn them for doing what they think is best. Partial birth and late term abortion should be totally banned. It does look as though we are thinking along the same lines and I know what I speak of because I had only one child and knew I could only afford that one and I had sterilization done. I always wanted more but sometimes sacrifices are called for to fulfill the promise to the child you already have. We had some very hard times and I had to leave her for long periods of time to work and this was not always the best for her. I regret the time I had to work and couldn't be there but she now understands that I did the best I could under the circumstances. My daughter is totally independant, owns a small business, a house and is an excellant mother. I think I did the job for her that I was supposed to do.. I taught her to depend on herself and never stop trying to better her life. Last edited by Two Cents; Jul 22, 2005 at 10:29 am.

Jul 21, 2005, 02:01 am	#1001 (permalink) (top)
SoccerfreakAB2 ???? Location: Novi. Michigan Posts: 2,163	Yes, but who are we to say what our own limits are. You cannot tell someone who wanted three kids all her life, that even though she can only support one, she can't have the other two. Sure, it's common sense. But sometimes our other emotions take control of us and we make stupid decisions. Unless you wanted to pull a Chinese manuever and place a limit of the number of children of course. It's just another rough line product of our economy. The fact that she has three children may make her feel wealthier than others, even though she is blinded by the lust for three children rather than considering and weighing the consequences.

Jul 21, 2005, 09:32 am	#1002 (permalink) (top)
Two Cents Molten Ash Posts: 57	What I'm saying is to be responsible for all the children you choose to bring into the world. While I'm working to support mine I don't want to support yours. I had to work very hard to feed my child and others are just having them and expecting help. I don't think, in general, you can raise responsible independant children when they are raised in an environment that society owes them since the mother used society for the money to raise them. This is a wonderful country and that can be seen from all the immigrants who come here to experience the American way. They were not lucky enough to be born into a country where we take for granted free education and all the other priveleges our society has given us. I also said that when you feel your family is complete sterilization is a good choice, that is when you are sure you don't want anymore under any circumstances. This is of course another issue than when does life begin.

Jul 21, 2005, 09:37 pm	#1005 (permalink) (top)
Two Cents Molten Ash Posts: 57	ibm, I certaintly wasn't rich and didn't get much help from her father who is wealthy I did work 2 and 3 jobs to support her so if you so much want a child get out there and go to work. I was a debt collector for years and heard all kinds of excuses why people cannot make a payment on a new car they couldn't afford in the first place and then would blame the bank for giving them the loan. Same thing to me, if you can't afford it don't get it. This is a country of free choice. Don't have enough money?, go get a second job.

Jul 21, 2005, 10:36 pm	#1007 (permalink) (top)
SoccerfreakAB2 ???? Location: Novi. Michigan Posts: 2,163	Much of the time the people who do want to make these decisions without thinking clearly do it because they want to live like the rest of society. Even if I didn't have a lot of money, for instance, I would still want children, a nice car, and other things that would make me feel happy in a society like this one. All the theists should know that many are living life like they are going to die tomorrow, so why not make those decisions. They figure why worry about others' taxes when they are the poor ones in the first place. When you think about it, they are right. The poorer ones are the people who wish only to have the conveniences like cars, kids, a nice house, good looks, etc. just like everyone else. We'll never stop that with the type of economic society we live in.

Jul 21, 2005, 10:46 pm	#1008 (permalink) (top)
Two Cents Molten Ash Posts: 57	I said that when you are done having a family. If you reread it you will see that. I'm not saying that if you're poor you should be sterilized. Just that you have to work a little harder than someone who can afford any luxury they want. People who have children and can't afford them should not depend on Social Services for the money to raise them. It was not created for that but for people who suffered sudden illness, death of a spouse, a sick child that needs specialized medical care, someone who for whatever reason can no longer work but has worked and paid into the system. It was supposed to be a safety net until other help was available. It was not supposed used instead of a job so people could have all the children they think they have the "right" to have. Too many people have a feeling of entitlement and are irresponsible.

Jul 21, 2005, 11:49 pm	#1010 (permalink) (top)
jai_lyn7249 Molten Ash Location: pennslyvania Posts: 68	[B I personally believe life starts at conception as soon as the sperm enters the egg i also believe that abortion should be made illegal it is wrong it is cruel and you should protect yourself or abstain if you dont want children. a baby in the womb had perfectly formed feet at 10 weeks old and a heartbeat how could you consider killing something that is going to be human ............. just like yourself.................i say if you consider abortion ok then maybe your mother shouldve killed you and stop the cycle of murder

Jul 21, 2005, 11:59 pm	#1012 (permalink) (top)
jai_lyn7249 Molten Ash Location: pennslyvania Posts: 68	i never said i wanted anyone dead read it again i said maybe thats what you mother shouldve done if you believe in it makes you think.....

Jul 22, 2005, 01:07 am	#1014 (permalink) (top)
Two Cents Molten Ash Posts: 57	Soccerfreak, that's exactly what I'm talking about. If you raise one child with a sense of responsibility to society they will give to society. If you raise 4 children and inflict them on society then they will think they are entitled and don't care about the people who are paying their way.