Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Starboy Be nice Pale Rider. No evaluative comments. Address my points not me. That is against the rules. Go read them very carefully and make sure you comprehend them before posting further.

Your point was a deliberate lie. Now you have proven that by not bringing the citation forward. In a debate, one doesn't have free reign to lie at will and never be called on it. If you don't want to be addressed as a liar, then don't lie.

Quote by: Starboy Hey it doesn't say that a totipotent cell is the organism. Simply that a totipotent cell has the capacity to form the entire organism. Why must we all accept your citations but you will not accept those that contradict your citations. Is is because you have claimed a great many times that your take represents all scientific opinion? Well guess what. Your take doesn't represent all scientific opinion. It doesn't even represent most of the scientific opinion. That is because people do not confuse the chicken egg with the chicken.

Starboy[/quote]

Learn the difference between capacity and potential.

And you have said that an egg is not a chicken in at least 26 separate posts now and gone so far so as to say that a fertilized egg is not a chicken. I have provided evidence that a fertilized egg is in fact an immature chicken while you have provided squat.

[MerlinsByte]

I have provided evidence that a fertilized egg is in fact an immature chicken while you have provided squat.

Merlin writes....If DNA was extracted from a (fertilized) chicken (or human) egg what would it be?

Let me take a wild guess! Ummmmmmm' a Chicken egg would be chicken DNA.....and the latter would be human?

yea! give me a bozo button!

mb

Pro choicers should not have a difficult time with this profound question now!

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: starboy Go back and look at the discussion we had about your reference: Does life begin at conception? I think it does. I went out and got a copy of the first citation on your list.

More lies. You casually went out and "got" a copy of a $400 book. Even a used paperback copy is $65 IF and that is a great big IF you can find one. They are generally bought up for the next semester even before the previous semester begins. If you were going to lie, then you should have researched it a bit. You could have said that you went to the library and looked at it in the reference section (since it could not be checked out) and then you might have been believable. Unfortunately, you have been caught in another lie. And then you complain about being called a liar.

Quote by: starboy I looked through that book and I could find no place where it said that a single human cell of any kind was a human being. I then asked you to tell me where in that book it supported that claim and you did not provide it to me.

(“Contemporary scientific precepts accept as a given that human life begins at
conception.” ( Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud, The Developing Human(PAGE 14) (5th ed. 1993)

If you should ever actually look at the book. I noted the page in the original citation. You will note that in the citation that you brought forward the page number was clearly noted in proper bibliographical form.

Quote by: starboy You are the one making the claim and at least this one cited source did not support your claim. And you lack the honesty to admit it. After that fiasco of yours I was not going to waste my time and money on your other citations.

Agin, caught it a lie.

Quote by: starboy But I do not need citations because my point is and continues to be common knowledge. I do not need to cite that people know the difference between a chicken egg and a chicken. And the fact that you would think that such a thing needs a citation indicates just how silly, stupid and bankrupt your claim is. Starboy

It is quite obvious that you are the only one that doesn't know. I don't see any of your pro choice buds jumping on the "egg is not a chicken" bandwagon because I produced clear evidence that upon fertilization, it clearly is a chicen. That you don't grasp the concept, is a reflection on your cognitive abilities, or should I say dissabilities?

If you ever actually walk into a library on a medical school campus (the only place you are likely to find the book) you might also check out the 6th edition of the book.

"This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual." --Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud. The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th Edition, 1998

I know that you want to be right, and that you are willing to tell any manner of lie in an effort to fool people into thinking that you are right, but quite simply, you aren't. You don't know enough biology to even know what you don't know and it is evidenced throughout your entire argument. Your arguments have an immature, childlike quality. Learn some biology and come back. If you actually know something, this won't be such a tedious process.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Starboy I already said on a number of occasions in this thread that Roe v. Wade is fine with me. Starboy

And exactly which part of the opinion as delivered by Justice Blackmunis it that is "fine" with you. Or have you (as I suspect) never actually read the opinion?

The opinion in no way states when our lives begin, or when we become human beings. In fact the justices do no more than play some clintonian games with the word person.

That is how weak Roe is and why the left fears the day that Roe is heard again. A child could tear apart the whole cloth that Roe is constructed of, imagine what a team of lawyers, biologists, and ob/gyn's are going to do to it.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: MerlinsByte Merlin writes....If DNA was extracted from a (fertilized) chicken (or human) egg what would it be? Let me take a wild guess! Ummmmmmm' a Chicken egg would be chicken DNA.....and the latter would be human? yea! give me a bozo button! mb Pro choicers should not have a difficult time with this profound question now!

I have had this discussion many times over the years and it has been my experience that when an argument "sounds" logical that it spreads through the pro choice community like wildfire and the argument pops up everywhere. It is notable that no one but good old starboy is arguing that a fertilized chicken egg is not a chicken. This would indicate to me that not even the most rabid of pro choicers are willing to take up such a patently dumb idea. All one has to do is look at a 2nd grade science book to realise that the argument doesn't float.

So, don't make such a general statement as "pro choicers" shouldn't have a difficult time because there is only one pro choicer making that goofy argument. The rest are keeping their distance so as not to be "contaminated" by starboy.

[Savant]

Heh, there should be a special icon for threads once the Nazi's have been brought into the argument.

It seems the only thing we've been able to prove so far, is that if you focus on one point in the timeline of human development, you can make all sorts of observations of that point and declare it "the begining of life" if you chose. After that it's a simple matter of repetition and misrepresentation if you insist on defending an absolute position.

In an argument like this, there is only the opportunity to be wrong. You could go from extreme to extreme, insisting that any woman who passes by you on the street without submiting to recieve your seed - is a murderer. Or that no child deserves a name until they can write it in cursive.

Like it or not, there is no golden rule that will allow us to shirk our responsibility to face these hard questions. You can create one if you like and shake your tiny fist at whomever threatens your position, but it's not real. I - unfortunately - won't allow myself that luxury.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder Your point was a deliberate lie. Now you have proven that by not bringing the citation forward. In a debate, one doesn't have free reign to lie at will and never be called on it. If you don't want to be addressed as a liar, then don't lie.

The evidence of your posts is here for all to see. Calling me a liar doesn't erase this thread. I started on your list of citations you posted in support of your claim and at the very first citation I found no such support. And when you were questioned on it you could not provide any quote from that citation to support your claim. It is all here to see. But hey I could be wrong. Please provide the quote from the indicated citation.

Quote by: Starboy Learn the difference between capacity and potential. And you have said that an egg is not a chicken in at least 26 separate posts now and gone so far so as to say that a fertilized egg is not a chicken. I have provided evidence that a fertilized egg is in fact an immature chicken while you have provided squat.

Go to a grocery store and ask for a dozen chicken eggs and see if they will give you a dozen chickens.

Starboy

[MerlinsByte]

merlin writes...Pro choicers should not have a difficult time with this profound question now!

pale rider writes..."So, don't make such a general statement as "pro choicers" shouldn't have a difficult time because there is only one pro choicer making that goofy argument. The rest are keeping their distance so as not to be "contaminated" by starboy.

I was ranting (hee hee) in general terms and in general terms all pro choice have a problem when it comes to understanding plain talk. I was alluding to all pro choicers in the known world and other places, so I stand by my general statement.

Although Starboy and I disagree often , I feel that lately he has attempted (as have I) to keep deception and manipulation to a minimum. I have been following this debate it seems that all points have been covered and recovered, but the same issues questions and moral implications rise up again like b movie zombies. Can we bury it now?

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder More lies. You casually went out and "got" a copy of a $400 book. Even a used paperback copy is $65 IF and that is a great big IF you can find one. They are generally bought up for the next semester even before the previous semester begins. If you were going to lie, then you should have researched it a bit. You could have said that you went to the library and looked at it in the reference section (since it could not be checked out) and then you might have been believable. Unfortunately, you have been caught in another lie. And then you complain about being called a liar.

Sorry that I make a good deal of money and have no problems spending a little. What's the matter? The dentist business not doing so good? Go to Amazon.com and look it up and then click on the used book link. You can get it for 8$ plus postage.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/off...?condition=all

If you should ever actually look at the book. I noted the page in the original citation. You will note that in the citation that you brought forward the page number was clearly noted in proper bibliographical form.

I looked there but could find nothing that supported your claim. But I never said it wasn't there, all I said is that I got the book and couldn't find it. Then I asked you to quote it and you didn't or couldn't. Please make an effort to comprehend what I have stated. If you can post the quote then do so otherwise I will have to wonder if you have the book and have ever read it.

Starboy

[Two Cents]

Do not take my posts out of context. I did not say all deformed children should be aborted but when the deformity is incompatible with life I think the mother should be given the choice. Yes life is painful and full of bad things and it should not be inflicted upon someone who does not want it. I am not speaking of just fetuses here. In my case an early termination of pregnancy would have been better than the 36 hour labor that I could stand but for my baby was stressful and painful just to die soon after. The condition he had precluded living beyond a short amount of time without extreme intervention and still his life would have been terrible and short. The doctors at that time opted for no treatment. This is sometimes for the best. What kind of life is living in an institution and when old enough to realize it you know you weren't wanted because you weren't "perfect?"

[Two Cents]

Also I thought the premise of this post was when does life begin? Not about abortion or Rowe vs. Wade.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Two Cents Also I thought the premise of this post was when does life begin? Not about abortion or Rowe vs. Wade.

The OP was rather sloppy. It stated: "Does life begin at conception? I think it does." As far as one can tell life began at least three billion years ago so the life being referred to is human life. But then human life began as least a million years ago so it must be when the life of a particular human being begins. The contention of the OP was it was at conception. Of course it did not bother to mention what constitutes a human being. All one must do is define what constitutes a human being and then look at what is present at conception and determine if it qualifies. By any measure of a human being except the magical version involving a soul, a single cell of any kind does not qualify.

Starboy

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Starboy Sorry that I make a good deal of money and have no problems spending a little. What's the matter? The dentist business not doing so good? Go to Amazon.com and look it up and then click on the used book link. You can get it for 8$ plus postage. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/off...?condition=all I looked there but could find nothing that supported your claim. But I never said it wasn't there, all I said is that I got the book and couldn't find it. Then I asked you to quote it and you didn't or couldn't. Please make an effort to comprehend what I have stated. If you can post the quote then do so otherwise I will have to wonder if you have the book and have ever read it. Starboy

This is what happens when you start lying. You get caught saying that you went out and "got" a copy of the book. You got called on that lie, then you go to amazon and look up a used copy (which by the way, you would have to order from an individual so going out and "getting" the book is still a lie) and then in your rush to re establish some credibility, you looked up the wrong damned book. You linked to the 6th edition and I clearly directed you to page 14 in the 5th edition.

BUSTED again..

Apologize for the lies and we can continue, otherwise I think that I have finished with you.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder This is what happens when you start lying. You get caught saying that you went out and "got" a copy of the book. You got called on that lie, then you go to amazon and look up a used copy (which by the way, you would have to order from an individual so going out and "getting" the book is still a lie) and then in your rush to re establish some credibility, you looked up the wrong damned book. You linked to the 6th edition and I clearly directed you to page 14 in the 5th edition. BUSTED again.. Apologize for the lies and we can continue, otherwise I think that I have finished with you.

Think what you want. I have a copy. I bought it on Amazon around the time in this thread where I asked for the quote from that book. But what does this have to do with your inability to quote the portion of that book that supports your claim? Unless you have been doing the lying all along.

But I want to understand your criterion for thinking I am a liar. Because I posted a link to the 6th edition, instead of the 5th edition I am a liar? So are you saying that the 6th edition, a later and more recent edition (the current edition is 7) doesn't support your claim? That the only way you can support your argument is to cite old editions that changed in later editions?

I will say it again. So what? Just post the quote. That is all you have to do. Trying to deflect what appears to be on your part obvious deception onto me because I gave a link to a more recent edition is just too crazy and stupid to contemplate. But when I get home from work I will check to see if I have the 5th or the 6th edition. If it is the 5th then you have some explaining to do. And it better be good because your lying will be on record. But if is the 6th that still doesn't relieve you from posting the quote you claim exists to back up your claim from that book. And I will get a copy of the 5th edition. So get it right.

Starboy

[rcne]

98 pages into the discussion and the main focus is what edition of a particular book to quote from is a little extreme don't you think?

What credence does the 5th edition have that the 6th doesn't? To call someone a liar because the proper edition isn't referenced does nothing but distract from the discussion.

Please resolve the book issue and carry on.

[Starboy]

Quote by: rcne 98 pages into the discussion and the main focus is what edition of a particular book to quote from is a little extreme don't you think? What credence does the 5th edition have that the 6th doesn't? To call someone a liar because the proper edition isn't referenced does nothing but distract from the discussion. Please resolve the book issue and carry on.

I would love to resolve it. All Pale Rider has to do is produce the quote.

Starboy

[rcne]

Starboy you need to clean out your in-box. Its full so no PM's can get to you.

[Starboy]

Quote by: rcne Starboy you need to clean out your in-box. Its full so no PM's can get to you.

Try it now.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Two Cents Not about abortion or Rowe vs. Wade.

You asked. I said Rowe v. Wade is fine with me. Why do you keep harping on it? This is an old problem. You can find St. Augustine writing about it. He by the way had no problem with abortion until limbs started showing. I guess St. Augustine didn't think a single cell was a human being either (not that he knew about cells). I certainly do not think that abortion should be allowed just before birth but it is certainly allowable serveral weeks after conception. The ruling of Rowe v. Wade is fine with me. It gives time for people who have become pregnant that have no buisiness having a child and know it to do something about it. There are a lot of irresponsible and stupid people in this world. It do not think it does us any good at all to force them to live with their mistakes when all it does is ruin two or more lives instead of just one.

Starboy

[Two Cents]

Starboy, I don't think the thread was when did life begin. I think it meant after conception, not three million years ago. I know I'm getting on a bit but I don't feel 3 million years old.