Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Gorgo · Feb 17, 2005, 04:34 pm

I don't know what you mean by "a right, like abortion." You were talking about rights as though they come from some God. Those things don't exist.

If people decide I have "the right," then I have "the right." Does that answer your question?

bishop · Feb 17, 2005, 04:35 pm

Quote:

Quote by: SeanG

Bishop,

I have a question for you:

“Would you like to see an increase in abortions or a decrease in abortions?”

it doesn't really matter to me. there are good and bad reasons for having an abortion. there are good and bad reasons for having a child.

this seems like some sort of set-up question - what are you driving at exactly?

Gorgo · Feb 17, 2005, 04:43 pm

No.

Quote:

Quote by: SeanG

Do those who were supposed to be killed but lived have no say in this debate? Wouldn’t they be the “go-to” person on the subject? Just curious.

SeanG · Feb 17, 2005, 04:48 pm

Would you, Bishop and Gorgo, without beating around the bush, agree or disagree with the quotes below?

Quote:

Hillary Clinton:

“….in reaching our goal of keeping abortion safe, legal and rare into the next century…. More has to be done to reach out to young men, and enlist them in the campaign to make abortions rare….”

Ted kennedy:

“Surely, we can all agree that abortion should be rare, and that we should do all we can to help women avoid the need to face that decision…”

bishop · Feb 17, 2005, 04:55 pm

it depends on how you intent to lower the number of abortion cases. if that includes taking away a woman's right to her own body, then i'd disapprove of it.

guys should wear condoms, girls should require that guys wear condoms. or they should use other forms of birth control. but, a woman still has the right to control her own body.

SeanG · Feb 17, 2005, 04:58 pm

I am sure you know and I hope you realize that the two liberal senators that I quoted, Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy, wouldn’t want to take “away a woman's right to her own body.” Do not be trite, and simply answer the question, it is a simple one.

dotcoma · Feb 17, 2005, 05:00 pm

^ she could have controlled it by not having sex too. One should know the consequences that come with the pleasure in my opinion. She had total control.

Gorgo, unless you are going to be specific in your accusations and statements against me I am not going to respond to them as they further distract. Contact me with pm if you wish to point out how I insulted you.

Gorgo · Feb 17, 2005, 05:01 pm

I agree that a good goal is to make abortions safe and legal. I do not agree that it is a good goal to make them rare. I think it is a good goal to try to make them all medical procedures as unnecessary as possible.

Starboy · Feb 17, 2005, 05:07 pm

As the population on this earth approaches 10 billion I suspect that people will not care if abortions are common. There are some people who are just not careful when it comes to sex. This has always been so. For many of these people it is a good idea if they have abortions. They do not want kids and society would be better off without kids that people do not want. It is not as if we are running short on humans.

Starboy

SeanG · Feb 17, 2005, 05:10 pm

Gorgo, what is your age? Just curios. It is important, am I debating a teenager? A college Student? A married man with kids and a wife?

The U.S. Supreme Court views abortion as a right - apparently found in the Constitution. Are “all medical procedures” a right (o boy… I can’t believe I have to lay this out like this) found in the Constitution and commented on by Justices of our Supreme Court? Again, I ask you, would you like to see abortions become rare, or increase. Take note to any others watching this small discussion evolve: I am not asking about “all medical procedures,” I am asking about what seems to be the topic of this strain, abortion. If Gorgo wishes to discuss “all medical procedures,” then maybe he should start up a separate post and first explain how carpel tunnel operations are a right found in the Constitution.

SeanG · Feb 17, 2005, 05:21 pm

Starboy, I suggest you read the following article…
http://www.ourcivilisation.com/aginatur/prog2.htm

Starboy · Feb 17, 2005, 05:30 pm

Quote:

Quote by: SeanG

Starboy, I suggest you read the following article…
http://www.ourcivilisation.com/aginatur/prog2.htm

I am aware of those arguments. But are you aware of the global warming? Of the shrinking polar ice caps? Of the projected weather models? The huge species extinctions predicted? I have been following the effects of mankind on our global system since 1971 with the early experiments on the ozone layer. This has nothing to do with politics. This is about the science. If you are wrong then billions of people might die and our current civilization could collapse. If I am wrong then there is more to go around for everyone. It is just that simple.

Starboy

Gorgo · Feb 17, 2005, 06:09 pm

SeanG, if you want to know more about me, click on the name "GORGO" and look at the public profile (o boy I can't believe I have to lay this out like this).

I don't understand your concept of rights, and don't see how they're applicable to this discussion. You said the "Founding Fathers" had some superstition about how some god gave us rights. That, of course, is ridiculous. If that's what you're talking about, hopefully that answers your question. If you say that the Supreme Court has said that it is okay to have abortions, then yes, I think that's okay.

You asked me about abortion, which is a subset of medical procedures. That is relevant, because, as I said, one of the drawbacks of abortion is that it is a major medical procecedure with certain risks. That is the only reason I can think of, except expense, to attempt to limit abortions.

Edited for politeness.

Quote:

Quote by: SeanG

Gorgo, what is your age? Just curios. It is important, am I debating a teenager? A college Student? A married man with kids and a wife?

The U.S. Supreme Court views abortion as a right - apparently found in the Constitution. Are “all medical procedures” a right (o boy… I can’t believe I have to lay this out like this) found in the Constitution and commented on by Justices of our Supreme Court? Again, I ask you, would you like to see abortions become rare, or increase. Take note to any others watching this small discussion evolve: I am not asking about “all medical procedures,” I am asking about what seems to be the topic of this strain, abortion. If Gorgo wishes to discuss “all medical procedures,” then maybe he should start up a separate post and first explain how carpel tunnel operations are a right found in the Constitution.

SeanG · Feb 17, 2005, 06:29 pm

As this is not the time nor place to discuss the issue put forward by Starboy, I will start the topic off for him and I, as well as others to discuss in the political forum, as this is a political topic… much to Starboy’s chagrin. I will post a speech at a Toastmasters event at my sons school (he was in sixth-grade at the time). Even thought his is a political discussion, I want Starboy to note that my son quotes from peer-reviewed scientific journals as well as scientists.

Starboy · Feb 17, 2005, 06:37 pm

SeanG, say anything you like. I read about the science being done all the time. Most of it is alarming. And it is not published in partisan journals. It is regular everyday science. That is not to say that what is happening is due to man directly but so what? The environment is changing whether you like it or not. At least for the short haul there are going to be many changes most of which will have a negative impact on human kind. To you this may be a political issue but to me it is a scientific issue. 1) The climate is changing. 2) It will have a big impact on us. That is all there is to it. You cannot vote your way out of global warming. This is not a political issue.

Starboy

SeanG · Feb 17, 2005, 06:39 pm

And with all that, Gorgo, still cannot answer a simple question. Even one simpler than the one about abortion is the question of age. That too was left unanswered. Go ahead Gorgo, ask me my age, I will not tell you to go somewhere else to look for it. I will, as I do in all polite conversation - whether face to face, or over the internet - answer a question posed to me. I suggest, and this is only a suggestion, you get out of debate mode and simply engage me in a conversation. I mean, the site name - Volconvo, eludes to this form of communication.

You may think that when you said, “That is the only reason I can think of, except expense, to attempt to limit abortions,” you answered my question… you didn’t. I asked not for any reason you could think of restricting abortion. I merely asked you if you would like to see more abortions performed, or if you would prefer to see them decreased. Do you agree with the indomitable senator from Massachusetts, or the fine lady from New York? Or don’t you?

Would anyone else here like to give this a try, because some here have lost the simple art of conversation, anyone? Bueller. Bueller. Anyone?

Starboy · Feb 17, 2005, 06:45 pm

Quote:

Quote by: SeanG

Would anyone else here like to give this a try, because some here have lost the simple art of conversation, anyone? Bueller. Bueller. Anyone?

And you are one of those that have lost this simple art. The first thing that a person does is not assume what the other person knows. Do not make stupid statements about how your daughter gave a talk some place and this is somehow supposed to be convincing. You do not know shit about anyone here and what little I have learned about you doesn’t make you look so good. If you think that a person is operating off of insufficient or incorrect facts then the first thing you must do is establish what they know. They may know a hell of a lot more than you. This is your first lesson on the simple art of conversation.

Starboy

bishop · Feb 17, 2005, 07:04 pm

Quote:

Quote by: SeanG

I am sure you know and I hope you realize that the two liberal senators that I quoted, Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy, wouldn’t want to take “away a woman's right to her own body.” Do not be trite, and simply answer the question, it is a simple one.

fine.. i agree, and how you choose to lower cases of abortion is a different matter.

SeanG · Feb 17, 2005, 07:15 pm

Starboy, son, not daughter, son. You mentioned, after cussing, that, “If you think that a person is operating off of insufficient or incorrect facts then the first thing you must do is establish what they know,” are you suggesting that Gorgo is operating on insufficient knowledge about his age? Or to whether he agrees or disagrees with some quotes on the same topic from two senators? Either way, rather than answering the question, he ignored the conversation that I started and merley spoke of this or that, all off topic of the discussion that he chose to engage with me.

SeanG · Feb 17, 2005, 07:18 pm

Okay, whatever the way in which you do it, would you like to see a decrease or increase in them Bishop.

View Poll Results: When does life begin?
At conception	236	46.09%
At birth	124	24.22%
Other..explain	152	29.69%
Voters: 512. You may not vote

Feb 17, 2005, 04:58 pm	#46 (permalink) (top)
SeanG Molten Ash Location: In a Chair Posts: 93	I am sure you know and I hope you realize that the two liberal senators that I quoted, Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy, wouldn’t want to take “away a woman's right to her own body.” Do not be trite, and simply answer the question, it is a simple one. All truth is relative! (Is that a relative truth?); There are no absolutes! (Are you absolutely sure?); Its true for you but not for me! (Is that statement true just for you, or is it for everyone?)

Feb 17, 2005, 05:10 pm	#50 (permalink) (top)
SeanG Molten Ash Location: In a Chair Posts: 93	Gorgo, what is your age? Just curios. It is important, am I debating a teenager? A college Student? A married man with kids and a wife? The U.S. Supreme Court views abortion as a right - apparently found in the Constitution. Are “all medical procedures” a right (o boy… I can’t believe I have to lay this out like this) found in the Constitution and commented on by Justices of our Supreme Court? Again, I ask you, would you like to see abortions become rare, or increase. Take note to any others watching this small discussion evolve: I am not asking about “all medical procedures,” I am asking about what seems to be the topic of this strain, abortion. If Gorgo wishes to discuss “all medical procedures,” then maybe he should start up a separate post and first explain how carpel tunnel operations are a right found in the Constitution. All truth is relative! (Is that a relative truth?); There are no absolutes! (Are you absolutely sure?); Its true for you but not for me! (Is that statement true just for you, or is it for everyone?) Last edited by SeanG; Feb 17, 2005 at 05:18 pm.

Feb 17, 2005, 05:21 pm	#51 (permalink) (top)
SeanG Molten Ash Location: In a Chair Posts: 93	Starboy, I suggest you read the following article… http://www.ourcivilisation.com/aginatur/prog2.htm All truth is relative! (Is that a relative truth?); There are no absolutes! (Are you absolutely sure?); Its true for you but not for me! (Is that statement true just for you, or is it for everyone?)

Feb 17, 2005, 06:29 pm	#54 (permalink) (top)
SeanG Molten Ash Location: In a Chair Posts: 93	As this is not the time nor place to discuss the issue put forward by Starboy, I will start the topic off for him and I, as well as others to discuss in the political forum, as this is a political topic… much to Starboy’s chagrin. I will post a speech at a Toastmasters event at my sons school (he was in sixth-grade at the time). Even thought his is a political discussion, I want Starboy to note that my son quotes from peer-reviewed scientific journals as well as scientists. All truth is relative! (Is that a relative truth?); There are no absolutes! (Are you absolutely sure?); Its true for you but not for me! (Is that statement true just for you, or is it for everyone?)

Feb 17, 2005, 04:34 pm	#41 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	I don't know what you mean by "a right, like abortion." You were talking about rights as though they come from some God. Those things don't exist. If people decide I have "the right," then I have "the right." Does that answer your question?

Feb 17, 2005, 04:55 pm	#45 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	it depends on how you intent to lower the number of abortion cases. if that includes taking away a woman's right to her own body, then i'd disapprove of it. guys should wear condoms, girls should require that guys wear condoms. or they should use other forms of birth control. but, a woman still has the right to control her own body.

Feb 17, 2005, 05:00 pm	#47 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	^ she could have controlled it by not having sex too. One should know the consequences that come with the pleasure in my opinion. She had total control. Gorgo, unless you are going to be specific in your accusations and statements against me I am not going to respond to them as they further distract. Contact me with pm if you wish to point out how I insulted you.

Feb 17, 2005, 05:01 pm	#48 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	I agree that a good goal is to make abortions safe and legal. I do not agree that it is a good goal to make them rare. I think it is a good goal to try to make them all medical procedures as unnecessary as possible.

Feb 17, 2005, 05:07 pm	#49 (permalink) (top)
Starboy BANNED: Repeated insults Posts: 4,828	As the population on this earth approaches 10 billion I suspect that people will not care if abortions are common. There are some people who are just not careful when it comes to sex. This has always been so. For many of these people it is a good idea if they have abortions. They do not want kids and society would be better off without kids that people do not want. It is not as if we are running short on humans. Starboy

Feb 17, 2005, 06:37 pm	#55 (permalink) (top)
Starboy BANNED: Repeated insults Posts: 4,828	SeanG, say anything you like. I read about the science being done all the time. Most of it is alarming. And it is not published in partisan journals. It is regular everyday science. That is not to say that what is happening is due to man directly but so what? The environment is changing whether you like it or not. At least for the short haul there are going to be many changes most of which will have a negative impact on human kind. To you this may be a political issue but to me it is a scientific issue. 1) The climate is changing. 2) It will have a big impact on us. That is all there is to it. You cannot vote your way out of global warming. This is not a political issue. Starboy Last edited by Starboy; Feb 17, 2005 at 06:40 pm.

Feb 17, 2005, 06:39 pm	#56 (permalink) (top)
SeanG Molten Ash Location: In a Chair Posts: 93	And with all that, Gorgo, still cannot answer a simple question. Even one simpler than the one about abortion is the question of age. That too was left unanswered. Go ahead Gorgo, ask me my age, I will not tell you to go somewhere else to look for it. I will, as I do in all polite conversation - whether face to face, or over the internet - answer a question posed to me. I suggest, and this is only a suggestion, you get out of debate mode and simply engage me in a conversation. I mean, the site name - Volconvo, eludes to this form of communication. You may think that when you said, “That is the only reason I can think of, except expense, to attempt to limit abortions,” you answered my question… you didn’t. I asked not for any reason you could think of restricting abortion. I merely asked you if you would like to see more abortions performed, or if you would prefer to see them decreased. Do you agree with the indomitable senator from Massachusetts, or the fine lady from New York? Or don’t you? Would anyone else here like to give this a try, because some here have lost the simple art of conversation, anyone? Bueller. Bueller. Anyone? All truth is relative! (Is that a relative truth?); There are no absolutes! (Are you absolutely sure?); Its true for you but not for me! (Is that statement true just for you, or is it for everyone?)

Feb 17, 2005, 07:15 pm	#59 (permalink) (top)
SeanG Molten Ash Location: In a Chair Posts: 93	Starboy, son, not daughter, son. You mentioned, after cussing, that, “If you think that a person is operating off of insufficient or incorrect facts then the first thing you must do is establish what they know,” are you suggesting that Gorgo is operating on insufficient knowledge about his age? Or to whether he agrees or disagrees with some quotes on the same topic from two senators? Either way, rather than answering the question, he ignored the conversation that I started and merley spoke of this or that, all off topic of the discussion that he chose to engage with me. All truth is relative! (Is that a relative truth?); There are no absolutes! (Are you absolutely sure?); Its true for you but not for me! (Is that statement true just for you, or is it for everyone?)

Feb 17, 2005, 07:18 pm	#60 (permalink) (top)
SeanG Molten Ash Location: In a Chair Posts: 93	Okay, whatever the way in which you do it, would you like to see a decrease or increase in them Bishop. All truth is relative! (Is that a relative truth?); There are no absolutes! (Are you absolutely sure?); Its true for you but not for me! (Is that statement true just for you, or is it for everyone?)