Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[Jims]

Oooh, Multiquote... nice touch. I haven't got that dialed in yet, so I'll respond in bold type within your text. (bold type in no way indicates that I'm angry, btw.)

Quote by: SoylentGreen Laws are there to reflect the views of society not to control society. Laws can and should be changed when the need is seen to change them. There also based on common sense. Are you saying that if those commandments didn't exist in the bible then you would be unable to tell they were wrong things to do. Nope. And there is a movement obviously by you as one who will insist that everyone conform to a belief system that they do not agree with. Wrong again. I belong to the "seek and you will find" movement. To Paraphrase: "You seek, and you will find". Individual responsibility. Few people embrace religion that is forced upon them. That is so sad that something like common sense or even empathy , acknowledging other peoples feelings is something that you completely lack unless it is spelled out clearly in a book like the bible. Never said any of that. Please don't put words in my mouth. My friends know me to be a kind, caring, empathetic, and compassionate person. I care deeply about the psychological impact of unwanted pregnancy, abortion, and other societal ills. Religion is not and has never been the sole source of morality. In fact when looking at some of the more immoral actions committed by theists ,one wonders what right they have to that claim at all. Never said it was the sole source. Christianity does teach that no one is without sin, and since I've never met a perfect person, at this point I'd have to agree. Those who claim to be religious, and don't behave as such, may in fact be using their religion in a manner that is was never intended for. Or may not be who they claim to be. Actions do indeed speak louder than words. I'm opposed to "Christians" bombing clinics, taking the law into their own hands etc... I seriously doubt that people who behave in this manner are really followers of Christ. Same goes for other acts committed under the guise of religion. Suicide bombings, etc... Don't get me started on that one.... Suffice to say that I believe it's part of the human condition to struggle with evil. If we're honest with ourselves, we all do. Everyday. The decision fully rests with the person asked to bare the burden, the mother .

The Mother isn't the only one who bares the burden. The man who impregnates her should bare equal responsibility. (Use protection, abstinence, get a job, pay their child support, marry the girl and raise the children in a responsible manner, learn from their mistakes... )

Society supports the mistakes through a flawed welfare system.

Need I go on?

[Jims]

Hi Marilyn. I'm a dog lover myself. (don't take that the wrong way...)

I agree with many of your points. Human behavior is not always good. One of the fallacy's of the secular movement is that "Man is Good". Seen the news lately?

My issue is that we (as a society) pass laws that enable and encourage bad behavior. I was not raised in a religious household, but I was taught that, because everyone else is doing it, does not make it right.

Again it is the exception to the rule is that a pregnancy will not result in a child.

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe Born is the key on this one. When in the uterus you haven't been born yet, and in some cases through natural causes you may never be, or in the case of abortion. Wonder how many Einsteins abort on their own? Most kids born before WWII had very little sex education from anyone, and there were a whole lot of shotgun weddings in that era. Back when my Mom was a kid they would count the months after someone married to see if they had to. Prison ought to be a deterrant for criminals, but it's not for all. Most people who are poor don't want to be that way is my guess. Getting public assistance is definitely not glamorous. Maybe you didn't, but a whole lot of people have always had pre-marital sex. Guys in the service used to line up for the brothels. That wasn't exactly what I'd call moralistic.

[ShadowFox]

Quote by: Jims The Mother isn't the only one who bares the burden. The man who impregnates her should bare equal responsibility. (Use protection, abstinence, get a job, pay their child support, marry the girl and raise the children in a responsible manner, learn from their mistakes... ) Society supports the mistakes through a flawed welfare system. Need I go on?

Again, the contraception may of failed, the couple who may of been planning a child may of run into financial issues making it much more difficult to raise the child in ideal conditions, people frankly shouldn't be forced to marry someone.

Look, if you don't want to abort the fetus, don't, but other people may want to for whatever reason, and since it's the mother that's having to deal with that fetus for 9 months, it's her right if she decides if she wants to keep it or not, not our choice, but hers.

[SoylentGreen]

JimsNope.

Not a very clear answer there jim.

Few people embrace religion that is forced upon them.

And even fewer wish to have religious morality turned into law and forced on them.

Never said any of that. Please don't put words in my mouth.

no, what you said was

"yet there is a movement (secular) that continues to blur the lines."

You imply that atheists lack the trait of common sense and empathy.
That it can only apply to those who find it in the bible.

I care deeply about the psychological impact of unwanted pregnancy, abortion, and other societal ills.

So far all you have shown is an interest in the right to life. I see nothing about the rights of women to choose there own life and so far very little in the way of what bringing an unwanted child into the world will impact on that child.

Never said it was the sole source. Christianity does teach that no one is without sin, and since I've never met a perfect person, at this point I'd have to agree

Yet you have, as I pointed out, blamed secular reasoning for the pro abortion stance, and the lack of morality in the world.

The Mother isn't the only one who bares the burden. The man who impregnates her should bare equal responsibility. (Use protection, abstinence, get a job, pay their child support, marry the girl and raise the children in a responsible manner, learn from their mistakes... )

Now this is a funny contradiction.
First you say

Christianity does teach that no one is without sin, and since I've never met a perfect person, at this point I'd have to agree.

and now you think that men and women should behave in a perfect manner as to always avoiding a sin,(abortion).

Society supports the mistakes through a flawed welfare system.

You got me there, are the abortion clinics run through a welfare system? Or are you trying to change the subject?
We have laws because things go wrong. Whether intentionally or not , they still go wrong. People are not perfect and your saying that prevention is better is good advice. However it is not possible to pass laws that make people act in a wise manner.
You must educate people to be responsible, forcing them through law never works.

Need I go on?

Definitely. So far you have shown a naive belief that only through theism will people understand morality and that some how laws will make people act responsibly.
Neither is true.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Jims Hi Marilyn. I'm a dog lover myself. (don't take that the wrong way...) I agree with many of your points. Human behavior is not always good. One of the fallacy's of the secular movement is that "Man is Good". Seen the news lately? My issue is that we (as a society) pass laws that enable and encourage bad behavior. I was not raised in a religious household, but I was taught that, because everyone else is doing it, does not make it right. Again it is the exception to the rule is that a pregnancy will not result in a child.

If you are a dog lover you're ok in my book.

I agree man is not all good, but usually more good than bad.

As adults we can choose to do right or wrong, and laws shouldn't really make a big difference cause we already know, unless it's a direct rule that we may not know then we might need education.

I'm for abortion cause I know how terrifying it is to get pregnant, and have no idea what you are going to do. Responsibility isn't the whole story, really. Might be in love, or get talked into something, whatever it doesn't matter, having a kid when you don't want a kid needs to be a decision that a woman can make safely without concern that she might die in the process. Fact is there will be a certain amount of women who will try to self-abort if abortion is illegal, and that's never going to stop no matter what gets changed.

[Jims]

I like your signature, Halofan. Yet we can't seem to agree that people should be more responsible for their actions.

Your response that other people may want to abort for "whatever reason" is exactly what I'm talking about.

Lack of an ideal upbringing, financial issues, etc. can happen at any time, in anybody's life. What then?

I mentioned in a previous post that I believe rape, incest and the Mother's health are considerations, lest anyone thinks I lack compassion.

Also, A "fetus" (I dislike that term) is viable far earlier than 9 months. Anyone care to share their views on late term abortion?

Quote by: Halofan48 Again, the contraception may of failed, the couple who may of been planning a child may of run into financial issues making it much more difficult to raise the child in ideal conditions, people frankly shouldn't be forced to marry someone. Look, if you don't want to abort the fetus, don't, but other people may want to for whatever reason, and since it's the mother that's having to deal with that fetus for 9 months, it's her right if she decides if she wants to keep it or not, not our choice, but hers.

[ShadowFox]

Quote by: Jims I like your signature, Halofan. Yet we can't seem to agree that people should be more responsible for their actions. Your response that other people may want to abort for "whatever reason" is exactly what I'm talking about. Lack of an ideal upbringing, financial issues, etc. can happen at any time, in anybody's life. What then? I mentioned in a previous post that I believe rape, incest and the Mother's health are considerations, lest anyone thinks I lack compassion. Also, A "fetus" (I dislike that term) is viable far earlier than 9 months. Anyone care to share their views on late term abortion?

Here are three scenarios:

1. A couple decide to have a child and the man is the provider of the couple, the women does not have a job. About 2 months into the pregnancy, the husband gets killed. The woman no longer has the means to support herself and the child. So, your saying this woman should have to have this child and not have an option available to her?

2. A young couple at about 18 years old decide to have sex. The boy wears a condom, yet during intercourse the condom breaks. The girl gets pregnant. So, you think that the girl should be forced into parenthood with no option available?

3. A women gets drunk at a party. She wakes up and found out that she had sex while she was drunk. The man apologizes, yet she is pregnant. She isn't prepared to have a child and doesn't have confidence in her mothering abilities. So, you think she should be forced to bear the child with no option?

Really, to say a woman must endure the hardships of pregnancy without any other option just because you don't believe abortion is right is invading her privacy and enforcing your beliefs on her is something that shouldn't occur.

Also, according to groups of the statistics scattered throughout this thread it shows that most abortions happen in the first few months, and that late term abortion is a rarity, usually occurring when something is wrong with the fetus or mother.

[Maryjane]

[quote]

Quote by: Jims It's not just about a woman's body. I was once in my mother's body, yet I am not my Mother, am I? (rhetorical question) Since we are born Male and Female, I view abortion as a human rights issue, not a woman's rights issue.

Of course you aren't your mother. That would make you a clone. You made it thru gestation to birth. You could not have survived outside your mother up until a certain time in the process. I have no problem with human rights once a person is born.

I'm not the one who decides. Never said I was. The supreme Court pulled this one out of their A$$. Don't blame me.

No one is blaming you, but your position is one that echos the moral majority. They, like you, fail to see that your kind of thinking would strip women of the ability of their choice to bring life into this world based on your ideals of morality.

The problem isn't that children may not live up to their potential, it's that children shouldn't be parenting.

Agreed. Children should not be bringing more children into this world. That's where choice comes in.

Far more kids... are having sex than ever.

Do you have a source or is this your opinion?

The lack of education before the fact is the problem. That and our permissive society is the problem. I don't consider myself to be the "Moral Majority", or a fundamentalist, so I won't say, "because it's in the bible". But I will say, "Because responsibility is the better alternative".

Yet the "moral majority" do not want sex education taught in schools.
Depends on the situtation, you can't say that for everyone. One size does not fit all. Not everyone is responsible enough to handle taking care of a child once they are born. Some can't even be trusted to get thru the pregnancy with the child in the womb.
.

Poverty and abuse are other issues that should be dealt with. The criminal justice system needs some attention as well.

Let's deal with that before we take away a womans' right to choose and bring a few million kids into society shall we?

As for taking care of the impoverished, abused, and criminals, we, (all of us) as taxpayers do take care of them. In fact the system, in many ways enables bad behavior, rather than responsibility and accountability.

And a crappy job we do at it. Our tax dollars aren't working. We keep building more and more prisons. Let's get on the education band wagon shall we?

.

When I was a kid, I knew there would be serious consequences if I got a girl pregnant. No Worries? Only if there is no accountability, no conscience...

Not everyone is you. You don't get to make the moral decisions for everyone else. There are serious consequences when a female gets pregnant, mostly for the female. Men can and do walk away from the situation. Am I taking your quote to mean that it's the woman who lacks a conscience?

[SoylentGreen]

Jims I mentioned in a previous post that I believe rape, incest and the Mother's health are considerations, lest anyone thinks I lack compassion

But unfortunately it does leave me thinking that you lack consistency.
I quote where you said

Yet they want to have control over that basic right to life that makes possible every other right that we have, and without life, no other rights matter.

And now for what , compassion apparently, you believe that the child's right to life is forfeit because of something that it had no control over.
Please tell me how you reconcile the idea that rape , incest or even the mothers health should in any way be paramount over what you also consider the right that supersedes any other right, the child's right to life

[Jims]

Quote by: SoylentGreen Not a very clear answer there jim. What part of Nope did you not understand? You imply that atheists lack the trait of common sense and empathy. That it can only apply to those who find it in the bible. Never said that. You continue to misquote me, and attempt to put your words in my mouth. Not gonna happen. So far all you have shown is an interest in the right to life. What's the alternative? I have other interests as well, but without life, they are meaningless. I see nothing about the rights of women to choose there own life and so far very little in the way of what bringing an unwanted child into the world will impact on that child. I mentioned in a previous post that there are psychological issues relating to teen pregnancy, the trauma of abortion, and the fact that children are becoming sexually active long before they are able to deal with the consequences. (Not just consequences of abortion, btw) Yet you have, as I pointed out, blamed secular reasoning for the pro abortion stance, and the lack of morality in the world. Yes I have. Was abortion a religious concept? Was Roe v Wade endorsed by a religious organization? Sorry, I didn't get the memo... Secular reasoning suggests that religion is what's wrong with the world. Religion suggests that ego, pride and selfishness are to blame, among other things. BTW, Christianity even teaches that followers of Christ are not immune to the same temptations as non-believers. No one is perfect. Not even Christians. Now this is a funny contradiction. First you say and now you think that men and women should behave in a perfect manner as to always avoiding a sin,(abortion). Again, NO ONE IS PERFECT. I never said people should behave perfectly. I don't think we can. And that statement is not a direct quote of anything I said. Nor was it implied. Just want to be clear about that. You got me there, are the abortion clinics run through a welfare system? Or are you trying to change the subject? When abortion is payed for with tax dollars, yes. I'm still on topic. You? We have laws because things go wrong. Whether intentionally or not , they still go wrong. People are not perfect and your saying that prevention is better is good advice. However it is not possible to pass laws that make people act in a wise manner. You must educate people to be responsible, forcing them through law never works. The law is a deterrent for those who respect it. They may be tempted to break it, but they understand the consequences. There will always be those who don't, and those who live in a responsible manner, regardless of the law. There are people in prison who did not respect the law. Some will be rehabilitated, some will not. Laws are to protect the innocent. There were fewer abortions before they were legal, so I respectfully disagree with you there. Prevention is better, and education is needed. I'm glad we can agree on something. The world needs some agreement. It's not always easy, is it? Definitely. So far you have shown a naive belief that only through theism will people understand morality and that some how laws will make people act responsibly. Neither is true.

I'm far from naive, and again you are misquoting me. I know secular people who are responsible citizens. Some of them are my best friends. I disagree with them on a number of issues. We have other things in common.

What is morality to you?

[Jims]

Quote by: Halofan48 Here are three scenarios: 1. A couple decide to have a child and the man is the provider of the couple, the women does not have a job. About 2 months into the pregnancy, the husband gets killed. The woman no longer has the means to support herself and the child. So, your saying this woman should have to have this child and not have an option available to her? My feeling is that most women in that position would keep the child, as it would be the only living link to her husband, who, I will assume she loved. 2. A young couple at about 18 years old decide to have sex. The boy wears a condom, yet during intercourse the condom breaks. The girl gets pregnant. So, you think that the girl should be forced into parenthood with no option available? They decided to have sex. Were they willing to accept the consequences? 3. A women gets drunk at a party. She wakes up and found out that she had sex while she was drunk. The man apologizes, yet she is pregnant. She isn't prepared to have a child and doesn't have confidence in her mothering abilities. So, you think she should be forced to bear the child with no option? If it's date rape, the man should be thrown in jail. If the woman got herself drunk, and willingly had sex, she is equally responsible. Really, to say a woman must endure the hardships of pregnancy without any other option just because you don't believe abortion is right is invading her privacy and enforcing your beliefs on her is something that shouldn't occur. Also, according to groups of the statistics scattered throughout this thread it shows that most abortions happen in the first few months, and that late term abortion is a rarity, usually occurring when something is wrong with the fetus or mother.

I've already stated that I believe abortion is a human rights issue, not a woman's rights issue. Disagree if you like. The OP's original question was; "Does life begin at conception"? I believe it does, and if we are to quote statistics, conception between 2 human beings , unless interrupted = 1 more human being.

[Jims]

[quote=Maryjane;517179]

Of course you aren't your mother. That would make you a clone. You made it thru gestation to birth. You could not have survived outside your mother up until a certain time in the process. I have no problem with human rights once a person is born. If I were a clone, I would get a lot more work done... If I had not survived the incredible journey from conception to birth, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Isn't life interesting? I was a "clump of cells", as referenced in a previous thread. But I made it! And, I'm pretty sure no one pulled a fast one, and replaced the aforementioned "clump" with me... No one is blaming you, but your position is one that echos the moral majority. They, like you, fail to see that your kind of thinking would strip women of the ability of their choice to bring life into this world based on your ideals of morality. Soilent Green is! He blames me! He thinks my kind are what's wrong with the world! I hope he doesn't read this, because I just misquoted him! LOL! Oh well. one good turn deserves another... I'm not "the Moral Majority". I believe God endowed us with the free will to do good, but we don't always. We can do much better. Agreed. Children should not be bringing more children into this world. That's where choice comes in. Thats where responsibility and accountability comes in. Call me old fashioned... Do you have a source or is this your opinion? My statement was: "More kids are having sex than ever before". I believe it. It's my opinion. What do you think? I also believe that more adults who should never be parents, are having children. I really wish they would stop it, but through responsible behavior, not with abortion. Yet the "moral majority" do not want sex education taught in schools. Depends on the situtation, you can't say that for everyone. One size does not fit all. Not everyone is responsible enough to handle taking care of a child once they are born. Some can't even be trusted to get thru the pregnancy with the child in the womb. I'm am not the moral majority. Just one person with an opinion. An opinion that is shared by some, not by others. I had sex education in school. Pre Roe v Wade. No way was I going to get a girl pregnant. I was not a "God fearing" person. I feared my Dad! Let's deal with that before we take away a womans' right to choose and bring a few million kids into society shall we? And a crappy job we do at it. Our tax dollars aren't working. We keep building more and more prisons. Let's get on the education band wagon shall we? I agree that there are many societal ills that need serious attention. We may not necessarily agree on what they are, or how to solve them. Another topic for another thread... Not everyone is you. You don't get to make the moral decisions for everyone else. Nor does any individual. Society decides, and there will undoubtedly be disagreement along the way. There are serious consequences when a female gets pregnant, mostly for the female. Men can and do walk away from the situation. Am I taking your quote to mean that it's the woman who lacks a conscience? Absolutely not! The man is equally, if not more responsible, and should never be allowed to "walk away" from his responsibility.

[Jims]

Quote by: SoylentGreen But unfortunately it does leave me thinking that you lack consistency. How many times have you misquoted me now?... Consistency? Uh,... yeah. And now for what , compassion apparently, you believe that the child's right to life is forfeit because of something that it had no control over. I've always believed that. It's just new to you. I also said "God bless" women who decide to have a child under such circumstances. They are truly saints. Please tell me how you reconcile the idea that rape , incest or even the mothers health should in any way be paramount over what you also consider the right that supersedes any other right, the child's right to life

I believe that it is possible, ( I freely admit that I don't have all the answers, You'll have to find a higher authority for that.) that even those unwanted souls are here for a reason. Who am I to decide that they should not be born.

As for the Mother's health, if one's life is in jeopardy, I would find it inconsistent to endanger the other as well. In case you don't understand, I support life. I would hope both would survive. Life and death situations were dealt with by doctors and families long before Roe v Wade. Those are exceptions. Exceptions are not the rule. They are exceptions. Simple enough?

[SoylentGreen]

JimsHow many times have you misquoted me now?..

And how many times will you use this false excuse?
I posted exactly what you said so it is not a misquote

I believe that it is possible, ( I freely admit that I don't have all the answers, You'll have to find a higher authority for that.) that even those unwanted souls are here for a reason. .

What a complete cop out. You are the one making the statements here not god . Unless you have a direct link to him or are willing to invite him here to speak for himself then don't go around using him as an excuse for your own inconsistencies.

Who am I to decide that they should not be born..

Exactly . Just who do you think you are. That's the question on everyone's lips.
You are the one here right now on volconvo making the statements that abortion is wrong. Except of course where you have no problem contradicting yourself and saying it's right . And then have the nerve to tell us to ask a non existent god to explain your contradictions.

I would find it inconsistent to endanger the other as well.

Finally you agree your stance is completely inconsistent, It doesn't make any sense. But do you try to deal with the inconsistency, no, instead you shrug your shoulders and insist that never the less you are right.

In case you don't understand, I support life

And this is based not on reason but on a personal belief.
The answer is obvious , you have the right to a personal belief. Don't get an abortion yourself.
You have no right to insist the same for any one else until you can come up with a better line of reasoning than "god told me so"

[SoylentGreen]

Jims What part of Nope did you not understand?

One word replies is just spamming. If you can't think of a good rebuttal then at least be honest enough to admit it.

Never said that. You continue to misquote me, and attempt to put your words in my mouth. Not gonna happen.

Please, go out and buy a dictionary. Look up the word misquote and try to understand what it means. I have posted your exact words and replied to them, I am not misquoting in any instance.
If you feel i am MISREPRESENTING your view then give a good reason for your opinion, Not just hide behind an incorrectly used word.

What's the alternative?

The right to be able to live your life without the interference of those who would push an inconsistent morality, such as you have displayed, on them

I mentioned in a previous post that there are psychological issues relating to teen pregnancy, the trauma of abortion, and the fact that children are becoming sexually active long before they are able to deal with the consequences. (Not just consequences of abortion, btw)

But you want to completely ignore the psychological issues relating to having to go through with an unwanted pregnancy.
Explain why you think one set of issues has any priority over another.

Yes I have. Was abortion a religious concept?

But do not the religious make an issue of it. Is it not their concept of abortion we are arguing here.

Secular reasoning suggests that religion is what's wrong with the world. Religion suggests that ego, pride and selfishness are to blame, among other things. BTW, Christianity even teaches that followers of Christ are not immune to the same temptations as non-believers.

Simple enough, if you choose to join a religious congregation and follow there rules , you are free to do so. If you want to push your rules on others then give good reason , not a bunch of inconsistencies.

Was Roe v Wade endorsed by a religious organization? Sorry, I didn't get the memo..

Fair enough I owe an apology here. How silly of me to forget I am dealing with a race of xenophobes. That this is a world wide issue being dealt with by people all over the world on a world wide web site. So when you make a vague term like secular I should have instantly recognised that only american law and attitude is of any concern here, my apologies.

Again, NO ONE IS PERFECT. I never said people should behave perfectly. I don't think we can. And that statement is not a direct quote of anything I said. Nor was it implied. Just want to be clear about that.

Fair enough the word perfect was a little to strong.
However you did say , and I quote your words

(Use protection, abstinence, get a job, pay their child support, marry the girl and raise the children in a responsible manner, learn from their mistakes... )

along with

Christianity does teach that no one is without sin, and since I've never met a perfect person,

You wish people would behave in a "responsible" manner , but they don't always do that or situations change unexpectedly. Laws deal with that.
Wishing doesn't

There were fewer abortions before they were legal, so I respectfully disagree with you there.

That you will have to prove. When it was illegal those who had it done did not make a habit of telling others about it. And many women died in horrible circumstances because it was illegal. Making it illegal again will bring that back. So much for their right to life.

[Jims]

Quote by: SoylentGreen And how many times will you use this false excuse? I posted exactly what you said so it is not a misquote It's not a false excuse. You continue to attempt to speak for me. If you want to have a one-sided conversation, talk to a wall. What a complete cop out. You are the one making the statements here not god . Unless you have a direct link to him or are willing to invite him here to speak for himself then don't go around using him as an excuse for your own inconsistencies. Again, I never claimed to speak for God. I believe in God, and that each person has a free will, and the right to believe, or not is their responsibility. Your greatest consistency is in your circular (not secular)reasoning. It always comes back to you being right, and God being wrong. Sad... Just who do you think you are. That's the question on everyone's lips. I know who I am. You? So now you speak for everyone? Did you clear that with the rest of the forum? I thought you just wanted to speak for me. I felt so special.... So, you don't love me anymore? snif...snif.... You are the one here right now on volconvo making the statements that abortion is wrong. Except of course where you have no problem contradicting yourself and saying it's right . Is this your forum? I didn't get the memo. I thought it was about the free exchange of ideas. Is