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robby 1957 · May 16, 2008, 01:12 pm

Matthew 24:5-8 gives us some important clues so we can discern the approach of the end times, “For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.” An increase in false messiahs, an increase in warfare, and increases in famines, plagues, and natural disasters – these items are “signs” of the end times. Even in this passage, though, we are given a warning. We are not to be deceived (Matthew 24:4), because these events are only the beginning of birth pains (Matthew 24:8), the end is still to come (Matthew 24:6).

Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus
Christ with an undying love .. Robby

doittoit · May 16, 2008, 01:16 pm

I agree the examples are not comparible, but the essence is. The point is most people would think making a women as responsible for her unborn child as we are for "living" people absured. Your qubbling about the analogy, while ignoring the point.

ryanatau · May 16, 2008, 01:30 pm

Quote:

Quote by: doittoit

I agree the examples are not comparible, but the essence is. The point is most people would think making a women as responsible for her unborn child as we are for "living" people absured. Your qubbling about the analogy, while ignoring the point.

The point should be made without recourse to an analogy. Again if what I said, that individual situations matter in judgment, then giving analogies does not work because even if the point is there it asks you to accept two situations as identical.

doittoit · May 16, 2008, 01:59 pm

analogies aside the argument is if a baby is life .And, a mothers "rights" are mitigated by carrying a baby. Iis she legally responsible for the protection of said baby pre-term. Should she be prosicuted for child in dangerment if she goes bugie jumping, drinks, attempts suicide, speeds? That all seems a bit adsured to most people and that asurdity questions what a lot of people believe about life.

That point should of been obviouse, reguardless of how it was presented.

SoylentGreen · May 16, 2008, 04:00 pm

Quote:

doittoitI think to many people believe they are "right" about something they can't possibly of come to objectivly.

Good you agree it's based on subjective morality , not objective evidence. So the question is why should those who are anti push their agenda on those who are pro.?

doittoit · May 17, 2008, 12:18 am

Quote:

Quote by: SoylentGreen

Good you agree it's based on subjective morality , not objective evidence. So the question is why should those who are anti push their agenda on those who are pro.?

What do you mean by anti/pro? You mean anti-abortion vs pro-choice? If so I don't think they should. I think there is a much better way for anti-abortionists to accomplish their goals (at least the goals they claim to have) then trying to legislate, but that's not really what this thread is about.

SoylentGreen · May 17, 2008, 04:35 pm

Quote:

Quote by: doittoit

What do you mean by anti/pro? You mean anti-abortion vs pro-choice? If so I don't think they should. I think there is a much better way for anti-abortionists to accomplish their goals (at least the goals they claim to have) then trying to legislate, but that's not really what this thread is about.

Well in essence it is what this thread is about. An attempt to understand at which exact point we can say where an independent life begins.

gela · May 19, 2008, 05:07 am

Quote:

This is a much different example. Again, I said intention cannot be the only requirement to judge and neither can consequences.

It does not follow that what you are saying is true. Throwing a brick off a building is a different scenario than abortion. Thought experiments like this do not work. I pretty sure people can see the difference between throwing a brick off a building and unintentionally killing a fetus. But even unintentionally killing a fetus my be manslaughter in certain situations. My point is that situations are what must be judges not general cases.

No. A woman should never be charged with manslaughter for unintentionaly killing something inside her.

Even if she new the risks, and took them anyway.

Vacuum · May 19, 2008, 02:12 pm

Quote:

Quote by: gela

No. A woman should never be charged with manslaughter for unintentionaly killing something inside her.

Even if she new the risks, and took them anyway.

Why not? People get charged with manslaughter for unintentionally killing older people.

SoylentGreen · May 20, 2008, 02:07 am

Quote:

Quote by: Vacuum

Why not? People get charged with manslaughter for unintentionally killing older people.

In that case try to prove conclusively that it is manslaughter.
Give me an example of how it could be.

Barnicals · May 20, 2008, 06:25 am

All feotuses are considered female until (I think) 6 weeks after conception. That's why males have nipples. How can something be an independant entity if it doen't even have a fixed sex?

ShadowFox · May 20, 2008, 10:03 am

i was about to mention that. During the first part of the pregnancy, all fetuses have ovaries. If the Y chromosome is present, the ovaries descend and become the male testes

Vacuum · May 20, 2008, 10:16 am

Quote:

Quote by: Barnicals

All feotuses are considered female until (I think) 6 weeks after conception. That's why males have nipples. How can something be an independant entity if it doen't even have a fixed sex?

So someone who is born a transgender shouldn't have rights?

SoylentGreen · May 20, 2008, 04:42 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Vacuum

So someone who is born a transgender shouldn't have rights?

A transgender is someone born into the wrong sex . They clearly know that and the only confusion here is yours as to what a transgender is.

ShadowFox · May 20, 2008, 06:04 pm

I think he meant a hermaphrodite. In which case, from what i've heard anyway, only one of the organs is actually functioning

SoylentGreen · May 20, 2008, 06:10 pm

Quote:

Halofan48I think he meant a hermaphrodite. In which case, from what i've heard anyway, only one of the organs is actually functioning

Possibly I will let him clear that one up, but a transgender is someone
appearing as, and wishing to be considered as, or having undergone surgery to become a member of the opposite sex.
Where as a hermaphrodite is an individual in which reproductive organs of both sexes are present.

So maybe both will do.

Vacuum · May 20, 2008, 09:03 pm

Quote:

Quote by: SoylentGreen

A transgender is someone born into the wrong sex . They clearly know that and the only confusion here is yours as to what a transgender is.

Haha my bad, wasn't really thinking.

Dadoo · May 25, 2008, 01:48 am

Hello,
Not to go off-topic, but I must present for your critque the notion that:
Both sperm and egg are alive before conception.
Life began many millions of years ago, and has been "alive" in these myriad forms ever since.

Obvious? Or am I missing the point again?
Dadoo

Kamehameha34 · May 25, 2008, 03:24 am

Quote:

Quote by: Dadoo

Hello,
Not to go off-topic, but I must present for your critque the notion that:
Both sperm and egg are alive before conception.
Life began many millions of years ago, and has been "alive" in these myriad forms ever since.

Obvious? Or am I missing the point again?
Dadoo

That is obvious, what I believe is being emphasized by that particular point is the fact that no new life is created at fertilization.

Dadoo · May 26, 2008, 04:08 am

Thank You Kamehameha34.

To push a step further, a fetus is provably a part of it's mother. Indeed, beyond the spermatozoa, all cells are mother's as they are created within the physiological sphere known as her body. As a man has jurisdiction to have a limb removed; until birth, that blob of cells is officially known as "mom", sentient, conscious or otw.
Mom decides. Whatever the law says.. mom decides.
Perhaps the "life" you speak of begins
when mom decides to birth the subject?
Dadoo

View Poll Results: When does life begin?
At conception	254	45.44%
At birth	133	23.79%
Other..explain	172	30.77%
Voters: 559. You may not vote

May 16, 2008, 01:12 pm	#3381 (permalink) (top)
robby 1957 WE ARE FORGIVEN Location: Wichita Kansas Posts: 90	Matthew 24:5-8 gives us some important clues so we can discern the approach of the end times, “For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.” An increase in false messiahs, an increase in warfare, and increases in famines, plagues, and natural disasters – these items are “signs” of the end times. Even in this passage, though, we are given a warning. We are not to be deceived (Matthew 24:4), because these events are only the beginning of birth pains (Matthew 24:8), the end is still to come (Matthew 24:6). Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love .. Robby *Robby Cleary*

May 20, 2008, 06:25 am	#3391 (permalink) (top)
Barnicals Igneous Magma Location: With a grain of salt. Posts: 158	All feotuses are considered female until (I think) 6 weeks after conception. That's why males have nipples. How can something be an independant entity if it doen't even have a fixed sex? "If everybody beleived in an eye for an eye, the whole world would be blind." -Ghandi.

May 20, 2008, 10:03 am	#3392 (permalink) (top)
ShadowFox formerly Halofan48 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,600	i was about to mention that. During the first part of the pregnancy, all fetuses have ovaries. If the Y chromosome is present, the ovaries descend and become the male testes Knowledge is power, use it well. Don't fear the unknown, seek to understand it Formerly Halofan48 Fun game!!!

May 20, 2008, 06:04 pm	#3395 (permalink) (top)
ShadowFox formerly Halofan48 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,600	I think he meant a hermaphrodite. In which case, from what i've heard anyway, only one of the organs is actually functioning Knowledge is power, use it well. Don't fear the unknown, seek to understand it Formerly Halofan48 Fun game!!!

May 16, 2008, 01:16 pm	#3382 (permalink) (top)
doittoit Sedimentary Rock Posts: 15	I agree the examples are not comparible, but the essence is. The point is most people would think making a women as responsible for her unborn child as we are for "living" people absured. Your qubbling about the analogy, while ignoring the point.

May 16, 2008, 01:59 pm	#3384 (permalink) (top)
doittoit Sedimentary Rock Posts: 15	analogies aside the argument is if a baby is life .And, a mothers "rights" are mitigated by carrying a baby. Iis she legally responsible for the protection of said baby pre-term. Should she be prosicuted for child in dangerment if she goes bugie jumping, drinks, attempts suicide, speeds? That all seems a bit adsured to most people and that asurdity questions what a lot of people believe about life. That point should of been obviouse, reguardless of how it was presented.

May 25, 2008, 01:48 am	#3398 (permalink) (top)
Dadoo Pure Energy Posts: 384	Hello, Not to go off-topic, but I must present for your critque the notion that: Both sperm and egg are alive before conception. Life began many millions of years ago, and has been "alive" in these myriad forms ever since. Obvious? Or am I missing the point again? Dadoo Heartbeat, the only song you will not hear until it's gone.

May 26, 2008, 04:08 am	#3400 (permalink) (top)
Dadoo Pure Energy Posts: 384	Thank You Kamehameha34. To push a step further, a fetus is provably a part of it's mother. Indeed, beyond the spermatozoa, all cells are mother's as they are created within the physiological sphere known as her body. As a man has jurisdiction to have a limb removed; until birth, that blob of cells is officially known as "mom", sentient, conscious or otw. Mom decides. Whatever the law says.. mom decides. Perhaps the "life" you speak of begins when mom decides to birth the subject? Dadoo Heartbeat, the only song you will not hear until it's gone.