Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[Derach]

Quote by: vash the sane But the woman has to give up her time and energy to support the fetus. Can't she decide whether or not she does?

She gives up much more than time and energy. And it isn't our place to judge exactly what she is sacrificing. It is debatable that terminating a pregnancy is not always in the best interest of the fetus. A fetus is not an independant being ... it is at the very least a 'ward' of the mother ... totally dependant on her to develop ... and subject to her will and ability to provide its continued development. To legally obstruct a mother who does not have the mental and/or physical ability or desire to carry a pregnancy to term is to subject a child to a life very debatably that is not worth living ... especially if it is in the opinion of the mother upon which that child will depend for many years.

Pro Lifers should speak to their own sons and daughters and bestow on them the value they place on pregnancy and reproduction. They should also respect that other individuals have reasons for making the painful choice to end a pregnancy, and not compound that decision by imposing a value system based on a totally different background and moral foundation.

There are plenty of people whose parents didn't abort them that need your sympathy more than the fetuses. Many children born to unwilling mothers who did not abort would benefit from some of the pity you reserve for the unborn.

[bombmaniac]

Quote by: vash the sane But the woman has to give up her time and energy to support the fetus. Can't she decide whether or not she does?

no she most definitely cannot! if you have someone living in your house
eating your food and taking up space and being a little bit of a pain in the neck, do you have the right to kill him? well why not you have to give up your time and energy to support this person, and its a pain!
(note the sarcasm)

[bombmaniac]

[quote=.Pro Lifers should speak to their own sons and daughters and bestow on them the value they place on pregnancy and reproduction. They should also respect that other individuals have reasons for making the painful choice to end a pregnancy,
[/QUOTE]

i really dont think its such a painful decision if approximately 1.3 million people have abortions!

[vash the sane]

Quote by: bombmaniac no she most definitely cannot! if you have someone living in your house eating your food and taking up space and being a little bit of a pain in the neck, do you have the right to kill him? well why not you have to give up your time and energy to support this person, and its a pain! (note the sarcasm)

No, but you have the right to remove them. Women should be able to remove the fetus from their womb, and if it still lives, good for it.

You should also note that the person in your analogy is concious. A fetus is not until a specific point. So your analogy would be better with a plant than an actual person.

[bombmaniac]

what kind of garbage is that? just take them out and whatever happens happens? no! that is murder in the first!

[robby 1957]

I've have a book called: from conception to birth that was written long before abortion was ever an issue . . . the scientific fact of Life at conception is well founded .. solid rock science

.....................

Sorry .. but that's all another issue .. show me the scientific / technical / medical data / information that proves that life starts at some other point beyond conception .. you can't do it . . . . RwC

......................

I'm not sure who published it .. but it's called "from conception to birth" .. I think I might still have it somewhere in my basement . . . I'll try to find it . . . RwC

......................

Whoever told you that a fetus isn't alive .. lied

[wolf_22]

a fetus can't think or feel,
it isn't alive.

and its not a woman's responcibilty to let her body be invaded for almost a year and then go through excruciating pain.

until you have a uterus, you can't have an opinion on this issue.
you will never be in this situation.

[Halofan48]

What's the name of this book and where was it published?

[Derach]

Quote by: bombmaniac i really dont think its such a painful decision if approximately 1.3 million people have abortions!

Be thankful that neither you or a loved one has been put in a position to judge it for yourself.

Whether or not YOU think an abortion is a painful enough decision or not has absolutely NO BEARING on the right of a woman (or family) to decide to take that step.

Get off your podium and stop telling other people how they (should) feel.

[Derach]

of course a fetus is alive ... so is a sperm cell ... so is an oak tree.

A teenager is alive too, yet society imposes restrictions as to their rights and holds their parents responsible for their behavior. A fetus' rights don't trump a teenagers rights when they conflict with their mother's rights, IMO.

Mom & Dad don't want junior taking the car, junior doesn't take the car.

They don't want junior to be born ... junior doesn't get born


Now go speak on behalf of children who have already been brought into the world and rejected ... you can actually help them ... You don't help a fetus who is 'birthed' into a family that doesn't want it by belittling the mother.

[robby 1957]

I created this video YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. i think it's kinda cool . . . .



Dear Rob .. Just a little over 18 1/2 years ago (July of 1988) you, along with Betty Born interviened for my unborn son .. I was 17 years old myself and a frightened, pregnant girl .. I was walking toward the entrance door of the abortion clinic on Central Street . .
If this mail has made it to the correct address & found you .. well .. you know what this is all about . . . My son .. Aaron is graduating from Trinity Academy .. He is starting at Kansas State University in the fall and has been accepted into the engineering program there. He has grown into a respectful hard working young man .. He has been a true joy & blessing in my life - as well as others -- >

http://www.robbycleary.com/aaron.html

ok .. I'm sorry . . . .I'm back on track now . . . . . you were saying ??

[Jack]

I've have a book called: from conception to birth that was written long before abortion was ever an issue . . . the scientific fact of Life at conception is well founded .. solid rock science

I have two problems with that comment. I'm not sure when you consider abortion to have become an issue, but it's been a human practice for thousands of years. Sixty years ago in this country it was administered by unlicensed "doctors" using coat hangers due to the religiously-inspired prohibition against it being performed by trained doctors in sterile conditions.

Second, what exactly is "solid rock science"? Science advances as new information is discovered. Scientific conclusions are not set in stone and are not absolute. A book about abortion from the 1950s would be mostly out-of-date and based on less scientific information than we now posses.

[Derach]

Quote by: robby 1957 ok .. I'm sorry . . . .I'm back on track now . . . . . you were saying ??

I was saying that it is the right of individuals like Aaron's mom to decide whether to have a child or not. I accept your apology.

[ryanatau]

its not a scientific problem it is a definition problem. How do you define human life.

Science can be used in the process but ultimately we must define human life. Clearly that sort of definition is on an individual level which can be stretched to a cultural level. Regardless, it does not have a definitive answer. Instead it is answered arbitrarily by societies.

[robby 1957]

00008 .. I'm so sorry Isherwood that you have a problem .. It's probably because the scientific fact of life from the moment of conception does not support your religious (Secular-Humanistic) adgenda .. that is indeed a problem .. you are truely a god, knowing good and evil

from conception to birth
Amazon.com: From Conception to Birth: A Life Unfolds: Books: Alexander Tsiaras
the scientific facts

we can split an atom
we can put men on the moon
we can send probes to mars
we can operate on children in utero
we can now manipulate and/or re-create DNA
oh, but we can't find when life begins ?? .. give me a break

since we have accepted the technology of the atom
(only when it agrees with our adgenda)
and have rejected the sermon on the mount
we therefore have a society full of nuclear giants and ethical infants

PS: the poll is in my favor @ this point (2008-02-09) 46.62%
24.05% at birth
29.32% other ~ explain . . . . . well .. explain

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Yea .. just like the south who believed that Africans were sub-human and could be enslaved .. bought and sold like cattle .. used and abused by those who thought themselves to be elite . . . . . . I think that science and reason has dictated otherwise . . . . if your "morality" is not based on truth .. you would do good not to call yourself moral .. but rather immoral (or at-least ignorant)

PS: this beginning thread pole is suggesting that you who are of 29%
explain your "reasoning" I would suggest that you get-er-done

Knowledge is power, and with it comes responsibility, use it well

PS: does anyone on this forum have the guts (or should I say: the moral fortitude)
to describe for us the details of a partial-birth-abortion ???

.....................

I'm not telling you or trying to "dictate" to you how you should run your life
it's your life and you stand before God on that one (believe in him or not)
I just wouldn't want to be standing to close to you on that day

FYI . . . cells that are dividing and growing are alive
nothing is added to the newly concieved fertalized egg (a new human being)
other than time and nutrition . . . scientific fact 101

[Halofan48]

First of all, stop calling it scientific fact. There is no definitive proof yet. It is a theory. Yes, the cells are alive, but we kill cells when we wipe our nose, scratch an itch, etc. To say that because cells are alive therefore my point of view it right is just silly. Also, we can't judge everyone's opinion based on one poll from one area. We need many polls from varying places. A lot of people on Volconvo support Ron Paul apparently, yet he is last in the polls. that is one simple example.

[myxomatosis]

The question is not a scientific one but a moral/philosophical one. We know human cells are alive, but that does not necessarily mean they are of moral worth.

[Halofan48]

Look, it's a womans choice, stop trying to dictates others lives. It's like me telling you you cant smoke, drink, or eat fast food. It's not my decision. The zygote depends on the woman for nutrients to feed the rapidly dividing cells. It's a womans choice to let this occur or not.

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: doc303 I believe it says "Philosophy & Religion" at the top, SK - that's why we are here.

PHILOSOPHY & Religion . . . PHILOSOPHY. I stated the question because all the replies appeared to have been geared toward religion.

[Morality Games]

I always smirk at how well people understand religion and science, but not language. That biology defines 'life' as a a single cell means very little, as that definition was developed by biologists for the convenience of their discipline (they discuss life in terms of cells) and therefore only functions in the context of biology. The word 'life' has numerous definitions and can have many more, as each letter is just a symbol with no intrinistic meaning -- the meaning must be provided by humans, usually by teaching children from an early age to derive certain varieties of meaning from particular words. Taking the biological definition of 'life' and applying it to abortion debates is a textbook case of logical fallacy.

Anyway, thought and emotion are the conventional qualifiers for the status of sentient being (and only sentient beings can be said to have or even need rights) -- the more the fetus develops, the more its nervous system grows, the more cognitively active it will become, and the less acceptable terminating it is. But at what point has it developed into a being with the right to live? If you made me king of everything, my decree would be three months, with possible exceptions in certain situations (threatens the life of the mother). The majority of abortions after that would be off limits (however, punishments for the unlawful termination of the developing human would not treat the guilty as murderers -- depending on how old the developing human was, the penalty would either by a fine or a stint in prison).