Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[ChinUp]

Jack what are you using the word God to describe the deity of christiandom Yahweh ? Do you really believe in that stuff about the word God ?

Marilyn Monroe .. do you like it when men use their physical superiority to force you into sexual relations. Do you think men like it when women use their physical superiority to force them into fatherhood for the rest of their lives ?

Its a two way street hun, you want equality & respect, you sure as sh!t better be able to offer it up in return.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: ChinUp Marilyn Monroe .. do you like it when men use their physical superiority to force you into sexual relations. Do you think men like it when women use their physical superiority to force them into fatherhood for the rest of their lives ?

What kind of comment is that? Not sure I understand the forcing into sexual relations. I realize sex is a two way street if that's what you mean, but the after effects definitely aren't. Many "father's" take off never to be seen again after the act. Women, no matter how good the father's are, have the entire burden until after birth, and many times even then.

Its a two way street hun, you want equality & respect, you sure as sh!t better be able to offer it up in return.

This has already been decided by the courts for you, so noone actually has to be blamed in a sense. The woman has the choice, the man doesn't in terms of the life. Now he might if the mother were in a coma, but if she can make a decision, it's her choice.

[ChinUp]

Marilyn Monroe .. Can you grasp the reality that women force men into fatherhood via their physical superiority (pregnancy happening inside their bodies) ?

How is this differnt than men forcing women into motherhood via rape (using their physical superiority, might) ?

Law or no law, justice requires that both offer an equal choice in becoming a parent or not. If you would hide behind the reality that the law cannot force a woman to abort, to get away with forcing a man into fatherhood against his will you are in my mind no differnt than a man who forces a woman into motherhood against her will.

Family planning must be practiced .. if both participants are not committed to becoming parents abort.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: ChinUp Marilyn Monroe .. Can you grasp the reality that women force men into fatherhood via their physical superiority (pregnancy happening inside their bodies) ? How is this differnt than men forcing women into motherhood via rape (using their physical superiority, might) ? Law or no law, justice requires that both offer an equal choice in becoming a parent or not. If you would hide behind the reality that the law cannot force a woman to abort, to get away with forcing a man into fatherhood against his will you are in my mind no differnt than a man who forces a woman into motherhood against her will. Family planning must be practiced .. if both participants are not committed to becoming parents abort.

They aren't equal situations. When men can get pregnant, and bear children then it will be equal. Women have the upper and lower hand when it comes to bearing children. They have all the burden. It's their call. They can trap men, but men can also be smart & use protection. Sometimes protection isn't enough, so then they have to go with the woman's wishes, but I don't think most women disagree with the men that often, usually they both have their say.

[ChinUp]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe They aren't equal situations. When men can get pregnant, and bear children then it will be equal. Women have the upper and lower hand when it comes to bearing children. They have all the burden. It's their call. They can trap men, but men can also be smart & use protection. Sometimes protection isn't enough, so then they have to go with the woman's wishes, but I don't think most women disagree with the men that often, usually they both have their say.

I don't know where you get the idea women can force men into fatherhood (perhaps its the same place men get they idea they can force women into motherhood), or the idea that fatherhood is nothing compared to motherhood. Pregnancy is a 9 month burden, parenthood is for life.

Bottom line family planning needs to be in effect & maturity needs to be the order of the day in regards to becoming a parent. Having children by accident is not mature or responsible.

Unless both of the people who made a conception occur wish to become parents for the rest of their lives abort..

It is deeply irresponsible to be flippant & childish about family planning.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: ChinUp I don't know where you get the idea women can force men into fatherhood (perhaps its the same place men get they idea they can force women into motherhood), or the idea that fatherhood is nothing compared to motherhood. Pregnancy is a 9 month burden, parenthood is for life. Bottom line family planning needs to be in effect & maturity needs to be the order of the day in regards to becoming a parent. Having children by accident is not mature or responsible. Unless both of the people who made a conception occur wish to become parents for the rest of their lives abort.. It is deeply irresponsible to be flippant & childish about family planning.

Your attitude isn't totally understandable to me. Everybody knows it takes two, but one has to be the decision maker because it's her body that will bring the baby to term. You can't always have two sides that will agree, so it's the woman's choice to carry or abort. Men have been getting tricked into parenthood from the beginning of time. It's the nature of the beast. Men can be smart and take precautions, and choose carefully who they have sex with, otherwise they might get burned, and this is just the way it goes. There's no other alternative. Men can't tell women, "I don't want a kid, so you're stuck with it, adios" because a whole lot of guys would make this excuse. Both parents have to be responsible even if one doesn't want it. Don't play if you can't pay.

[ChinUp]

Marilyn Monroe .. are you saying women are incapable of respecting mens reproductive choice ? Do you expect men to respect womens ?

Reproduction hasn't needed to be a gamble for over five thousand years. We have birth control & abortion to remove the gamble. We don't have to behave like animals any more .

[Jack_Sparrow]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe I think sex is just an act that has no purpose other than pleasure, it's not complicated.

What makes me angry is one minute your justifying just the behaviour that causes unwanted pregnancies, then you justify having the total right to abort when the true purpose of sex comes out. If you held better morals over sex and took it seriously, you would prevent unwanted pregnancies without the need for abortions, health and psycological damage, not to mension the destruction of life. I believe these things are often the price for the liberal jibberish in this comment, and I think society is full of it. I want the 'evil of one night stands' morals to be upheld.

[Jack_Sparrow]

Quote by: ChinUp Reproduction hasn't needed to be a gamble for over five thousand years. We have birth control & abortion to remove the gamble. We don't have to behave like animals any more .

What makes me laugh is that this gives license to act like animals, as we can escape the consequences. May I just add another option? MORAL CODE! This acts as birth control (but better than abortions and condoms), and prevents us from being like animals.

Clearly its more important to a lot of people to just enjoy sex like 'hippies', rather than to contemplate the true differential in difficulty between the two questions: "Shall I have morals or not?" and "Shall she have an abortion or not?". Mindless if you ask me, just like animals, as its far better to choose right in the first choice rather than risk facing the second.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: ChinUp Marilyn Monroe .. are you saying women are incapable of respecting mens reproductive choice ? Do you expect men to respect womens ? Reproduction hasn't needed to be a gamble for over five thousand years. We have birth control & abortion to remove the gamble. We don't have to behave like animals any more .

I think I summed it up pretty well in my previous response.

Real birth control and safe abortions didn't happen until the early 70's, so I'm not getting your 5,000 yrs deal.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Jack_Sparrow What makes me laugh is that this gives license to act like animals, as we can escape the consequences. May I just add another option? MORAL CODE! This acts as birth control (but better than abortions and condoms), and prevents us from being like animals. Clearly its more important to a lot of people to just enjoy sex like 'hippies', rather than to contemplate the true differential in difficulty between the two questions: "Shall I have morals or not?" and "Shall she have an abortion or not?". Mindless if you ask me, just like animals, as its far better to choose right in the first choice rather than risk facing the second.

You're right, and I totally agree, but this would be in a perfect world, and humans just have a whole lot of trouble controlling sexual desires. Gotta be realistic. There's no way to make people behave totally moralistically all the time. People, to my knowledge, have always had unwanted pregnancies no matter how strict the times may have been.

[ChinUp]

Jack_Sparrow .. if you have allowed folks to trick you into thinking sex is immoral. Somebody has driven a wedge between you & your respect for your own body. Sexuality is mentally & physically healthy when practiced in a mature & responsible manner. Another thing people have known for many thousands of years, not just since the 70's.

This is a global issue not just an an American one, think about the reasons why abortion & sexuality were not openly accepted in the states until the late 60's. Humans have been enjoying healthy sex lives & practicing family planning since the iron age.

Marilyn Monroe .. herbal & body manipulation methods to induce miscarriage have been known by humans for over 5 thousand years. You being ignorant of them is your failing. As is your corrupt notion that women should have a right force men into fatherhood.

Family planning (birth control, abortion) maintain the integrity of family. Your inablity to use family planning methods to control reproduction is representative of your lack of integrity in regards to planning a family.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: ChinUp This is a global issue not just an an American one, think about the reasons why abortion & sexuality were not openly accepted in the states until the late 60's. Humans have been enjoying healthy sex lives & practicing family planning since the iron age.

Marilyn Monroe .. herbal & body manipulation methods to induce miscarriage have been known by humans for over 5 thousand years. You being ignorant of them is your failing. As is your corrupt notion that women should have a right force men into fatherhood.

I know all about those "methods" and a lot of them were very unsafe, and caused death. People have been using condoms for a pretty good while, but before more recent times there weren't real reliable methods of birth control.

Abortion was not completely taboo as late as the 1800's.

There's no right to force anybody into anything, but it works both ways, and men can manipulate as well. More often than not unintended pregnancies aren't entrapment, they are accidents.

Family planning (birth control, abortion) maintain the integrity of family. Your inablity to use family planning methods to control reproduction is representative of your lack of integrity in regards to planning a family.

Who are you talking to here? Birth Control is the method that should be used, and abortion should hardly ever be necessary in MHO.

[ChinUp]

Marilyn Monroe .. You said women have a right to force men into fatherhood. Have you changed your mind about that ? I agree that birth control should be used but when it fails abortion must be implemented, after all birth control was being used for a reason.

[vash the sane]

Quote by: Jack_Sparrow What makes me laugh is that this gives license to act like animals, as we can escape the consequences. May I just add another option? MORAL CODE! This acts as birth control (but better than abortions and condoms), and prevents us from being like animals. Clearly its more important to a lot of people to just enjoy sex like 'hippies', rather than to contemplate the true differential in difficulty between the two questions: "Shall I have morals or not?" and "Shall she have an abortion or not?". Mindless if you ask me, just like animals, as its far better to choose right in the first choice rather than risk facing the second.

I hate to break it to you but humans are... well, animals. And i don't mean that in a bad way. I mean that in the "Did you think we were f***ing plants, genius?" way.

And now you talk about the morality of one night stands. I could make a very good argument about why there's nothing immoral about sex, but that would be a bit off topic so why don't you make a new thread hmmm?

[Jack_Sparrow]

Quote by: Vash the sane I hate to break it to you but humans are... well, animals. And i don't mean that in a bad way. I mean that in the "Did you think we were f***ing plants, genius?" way.

Quote by: www.dictionary.com an·i·mal (ān'ə-məl) Pronunciation Key n. 1. A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure. 2. An animal organism other than a human, especially a mammal. 3. A person who behaves in a bestial or brutish manner. 4. A human considered with respect to his or her physical, as opposed to spiritual, nature. 5. A person having a specified aptitude or set of interests: "that rarest of musical animals, an instrumentalist who is as comfortable on a podium with a stick as he is playing his instrument" (Lon Tuck).

I meant 2, 3, or 4, NOT 1, Somthing that is obvious from the spirit of my comment. It doesnt take a genius to be aware of the phrase 'act like an animal'. But nice try to counter argue with a straw man definition

[vash the sane]

Then allow me to actually prove your posistion wrong

Quote by: Jack_Sparrow What makes me laugh is that this gives license to act like animals, as we can escape the consequences. May I just add another option? MORAL CODE! This acts as birth control (but better than abortions and condoms), and prevents us from being like animals. Clearly its more important to a lot of people to just enjoy sex like 'hippies', rather than to contemplate the true differential in difficulty between the two questions: "Shall I have morals or not?" and "Shall she have an abortion or not?". Mindless if you ask me, just like animals, as its far better to choose right in the first choice rather than risk facing the second.

What is immoral about premarital sex? Is anyone hurt?

What about premarital sex makes it so terrible?

P.S. Scripture and other myths are not legitimate reasons.

[ChinUp]

vash the sane .. scripture bangers need to make out sex is immoral unless its for making babies, due to rejecting abortion as murder & birth control as unnatural .

The more like animals the scripture banging bosses make the peasants behave the more they will behave like good sheep who don't question. After all how can they question when their so busy trying to feed their house full of children & hating life due to not being mentally contented due to sexual repression & zero self respect due to being emotionally blackmailed with their own genitalia.

Who needs whips & chains when you have guilt & piety to get people to enslave themselves with.

[Jack_Sparrow]

Quote by: Vash the sane What is immoral about premarital sex? Is anyone hurt? What about premarital sex makes it so terrible? P.S. Scripture and other myths are not legitimate reasons.

First straw man. I was referring to immoral sex, which is a type of sex (there are many others). I was not referring to premarital sex, I have no problem with this, and would not say premarital sex resembles immoral sex although I'm sure anyone can appreciate how the two could coincide. Please, try to 'actually prove' my position wrong again.

Quote by: ChinUp if you have allowed folks to trick you into thinking sex is immoral. Somebody has driven a wedge between you & your respect for your own body. Sexuality is mentally & physically healthy when practiced in a mature & responsible manner. Another thing people have known for many thousands of years, not just since the 70's.

Second straw man. Again I was referring to immoral sex, which is a type of sex (there are many others), not labeling all sex in general as immoral. Sex in general is not immoral thats ridiculous, it is essential for the health and existence of mankind.

Quote by: ChinUp vash the sane .. scripture bangers need to make out sex is immoral unless its for making babies, due to rejecting abortion as murder & birth control as unnatural .

Third straw man. I never mentioned religion. You don't have to be religious to have this commodity known as 'morals'. I speak of morals and now I'm a scripture banger? Don't make me laugh. As for claiming birth control is unnatural, I didn't. As for claiming abortions are murder, I didn't; I said they destroy life and I purposely worded it like that (which you didn't appreciate), as a cluster of cells - even being a zygote - in my view cannot be murdered. Whats more, murder is such a loaded word it would have generated a meaning I do not intend, so don't try to sneak loaded words like this into the interpretation of my quotes.

Quote by: ChinUp This is a global issue not just an an American one, think about the reasons why abortion & sexuality were not openly accepted in the states until the late 60's. Humans have been enjoying healthy sex lives & practicing family planning since the iron age.

Yes they have I totally agree, one of the family planning techniques was to not sleep with every girl/man in the village and to instead find a long term partner, which was and still is encouraged by most parents for their children (humans came to call this the moral code for some unknown logic). There were undoubtedly herbal methods and timing methods too.

I don't like the idea that a horrible technique such as an abortion - which damages a lady mentally and physically - is required to pick up the pieces after people act irresponsibly and mindlessly (as animals, only animals don't get drunk) and get a lady pregnant with an unwanted baby/family. This I believe is immoral behavior due to all the disadvantages to the whole 'carry on'.

[ChinUp]

Jack_Sparrow .. Perhpas you are not putting enough thought into the whole carry on. I think you will find that abortion is more damaging to people who have allowed themselves to reject it as immoral. Another mysterious product of some unknown logic. Guilt & punishment are partners in crime I find.