Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Highwayman At what stage does the embrio become distinctly human

Science is very clear on this highwayman. Science says that it becomes distinctly human at the time its DNA can identify it as human vs any other life form on the planet. That time is conception. This isn't rocket science. It only gets complicated when you attempt to obscure the truth.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder Science is very clear on this highwayman. Science says that it becomes distinctly human at the time its DNA can identify it as human vs any other life form on the planet. That time is conception. This isn't rocket science. It only gets complicated when you attempt to obscure the truth.

Bullshit. What about twins or triplets and so on? Are they all one person? Of course not. Your assertion is nonsense. It completely ignores what is known from science. You pick and choose to support your argument and ignore the rest.

Starboy

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Starboy Bullshit. What about twins or triplets and so on? Are they all one person? Of course not. Your assertion is nonsense. It completely ignores what is known from science. You pick and choose to support your argument and ignore the rest. Starboy

You can't wrap your mind around the idea that in the early stage of development, a human being can split and become two, or three separate, nearly identical human beings? I am sorry that it is beyond your ability. It is, after all, basic biology.

You are obviously grasping for straws in a desperate attempt to be right. Sorry, there aren't any straws for you because there is no hard science that supports your position. If there were, don't you think that it would be plastered all over the news, the internet, and every bathroom wall in the nation. The pro choice crowd now looks to "ethicists" and necromancers and gypsies for supporting arguments, not science, and the irony drips off that one since the left has tossed over God in favor of science. Now you toss over science in favor of gypsies and necromancers. What happens when they can't help you either?

And I am still waiting for you to either retract your lie about medical textbooks supporting your position, or a reference to a couple.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Starboy Nahhhh. The points negating your claim have already been made so painfully obvious to anyone with a brain that all that is happening now is that you are making it painfully obvious to everyone just how stupid and dishonest you are. Starboy

And yet, you are completely unable to disprove a single thing that I have said. You claim there are scientific texts that contradict me, yet you do not provide bibliographical reference to them. I live near one of the largest medical universities in the country, I would happily go to one of them in search of the material that you say is out there.

At this point it is very clear that you are quite unable to prove any of your rhetoric, so you exacerbate your situation by hurling impotent insult and profanity as if such a display could make you appear more credible. You are like a cat who puffs its fur in an attempt to make itself appear more formidable so its challenger will flee in fear. I have news for you, I ain't fleeing. I have all of biological science and human development to back my argument. You have insult, profanity, pseudoscience, and bad analogy.

[Pale RIder]

...

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder You can't wrap your mind around the idea that in the early stage of development, a human being can split and become two, or three separate, nearly identical human beings? I am sorry that it is beyond your ability. It is, after all, basic biology.

Rider we have been over this too many times to count. There are stages of development for any animal. A human being requires more than just human DNA to be a human. It takes billions of cells working correctly to make a human being. A single cell is not a human being. And as stated before if you thought that a single cell was a human being than where is your outrage at all the human cells that people flush down the toilet every day? Shouldn't that be banned as well? What is so special about a conceptus? It is just a human cell. You apparently know that an egg is not a chicken but you appear to be too stupid or dishonest to see that a conceptus is not a human being.

You are obviously grasping for straws in a desperate attempt to be right. Sorry, there aren't any straws for you because there is no hard science that supports your position.

What are you talking about? What position? The only claims I have made is that your claim that a conceptus is a human being is stupid. I have demonstrated this in a variety of ways. I have shown that even you agree that a conceptus is not the animal itself when applied to any other living creature, but for some odd reason (gee could it be religion) you want to hold humans as somehow different from chickens or every other complex animal on the planet. And of course from the scientific view point in regards your claim (a conceptus is the animal) humans are no different from any other complex animal on the planet. Everyone but you knows that a chicken egg is not a chicken.

If there were, don't you think that it would be plastered all over the news, the internet, and every bathroom wall in the nation. The pro choice crowd now looks to "ethicists" and necromancers and gypsies for supporting arguments, not science, and the irony drips off that one since the left has tossed over God in favor of science. Now you toss over science in favor of gypsies and necromancers. What happens when they can't help you either?

What are you babbling about? What science have you presented to support your claim? All you have done is ignored the well known evidence that just about every person on the planet is aware of. It has been painfully obvious for some time now that you have no business being in any scientific field even if it is as a dentist because a scientist is required to acknowledge not only the evidence that agrees with their claims but they must also acknowledge the evidence that conflicts with their claims. And if they are honest and they cannot account for the conflicting evidence with their claim then they must consider their claim as suspect if not outright wrong. You have not even approximated anything remotely resembling scientific integrity. You have amply displayed that you are a stupid idiot very much like the mainstream religious idiots that have been taught at the feet of their pastors that ignorance is knowledge.

And I am still waiting for you to either retract your lie about medical textbooks supporting your position, or a reference to a couple.

I gave it to you and not only that I provided quotes from the AMA and the AAAS (the largest scientific society in the world) that they do not consider a conceptus to be a human being. But hey, why let that stop you. Just keep on playing your broken record.

Starboy

[Pale RIder]

[quote=Starboy]Rider we have been over this too many times to count. There are stages of development for any animal. A human being requires more than just human DNA to be a human. It takes billions of cells working correctly to make a human being. A single cell is not a human being. And as stated before if you thought that a single cell was a human being than where is your outrage at all the human cells that people flush down the toilet every day? Shouldn't that be banned as well? What is so special about a conceptus? It is just a human cell. You apparently know that an egg is not a chicken but you appear to be too stupid or dishonest to see that a conceptus is not a human being.[/quote}

It is sad that the idea is too big for you to grasp. You have a very narrow definition of human. If it isn't walking upright and wearing calvin jeans, it seems that you don't recognize it as human. Unfortunate.

You don't seem to grasp the difference between fingernail clippings and a human being at an early stage of development. Also unfortunate.

Quote by: Starboy What are you talking about? What position? The only claims I have made is that your claim that a conceptus is a human being is stupid. I have demonstrated this in a variety of ways. I have shown that even you agree that a conceptus is not the animal itself when applied to any other living creature, but for some odd reason (gee could it be religion) you want to hold humans as somehow different from chickens or every other complex animal on the planet. And of course from the scientific view point in regards your claim (a conceptus is the animal) humans are no different from any other complex animal on the planet. Everyone but you knows that a chicken egg is not a chicken.

You have demonstrated nothing. You have only ranted and cursed and provided no evidence to back up a thing that you have said.

Quote by: Starboy What are you babbling about? What science have you presented to support your claim? All you have done is ignored the well known evidence that just about every person on the planet is aware of. It has been painfully obvious for some time now that you have no business being in any scientific field even if it is as a dentist because a scientist is required to acknowledge not only the evidence that agrees with their claims but they must also acknowledge the evidence that conflicts with their claims. And if they are honest and they cannot account for the conflicting evidence with their claim then they must consider their claim as suspect if not outright wrong. You have not even approximated anything remotely resembling scientific integrity. You have amply displayed that you are a stupid idiot very much like the mainstream religious idiots that have been taught at the feet of their pastors that ignorance is knowledge.

I provided a fairly large number of medical textbooks to support my claim. You have provided squat to support yours.

Quote by: Starboy I gave it to you and not only that I provided quotes from the AMA and the AAAS (the largest scientific society in the world) that they do not consider a conceptus to be a human being. But hey, why let that stop you. Just keep on playing your broken record. Starboy

Yeah, I read that. Is that what you are calling evidence. Didn't you notice that right off the bat the man said "should". He was voicing his opinion and stating clearly that he dissagreed with the position of contemporary science. I thought you posted that in order to prove that I am right. There was nothing there that resembled hard science. It was written by doctors who in all likelyhood are paid by planned parenthood. How about if you post some actual science to back your statements.

[Starboy]

Dang Rider you got me. There are no chicken eggs only chickens. A single cell is concious of itself and human life does not go through stages one of which is a human being. Gosh, I see now that this is not well known knowledge and therefore the huge conflict it creates in your brilliant discourse can completely be ignored. I was wrong. There is no evidence that is so well known and under the nose of just about everyone on the planet that makes you and your arguments look idiotic. You win. Bye Bye.

Starboy

[Pale RIder]

Thanks, but you still got it wrong. All human lives go through stages, ALL of which are human, not one of which is human. Get that, and you are enlightened and I will be happy for you.

Oh, and there are chicken eggs. The ones that aren't fertilized are just eggs, just like the eggs that women discard every month. The eggs that you get at the grocery store are for the most part just eggs. At some point, however, you will crack one that has veins inside, full of blood. That one, is a chicken, a very young chicken, but a chicken none the less. When you are staring at a bloody mess in your frying pan, perhaps then you will be able to wrap your mind around the concept.

My bet is that when it happens to you, that you won't go ahead and eat it because you will instinctively know that it isn't "just an egg".

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder Thanks, but you still got it wrong. All human lives go through stages, ALL of which are human, not one of which is human. Get that, and you are enlightened and I will be happy for you. Oh, and there are chicken eggs. The ones that aren't fertilized are just eggs, just like the eggs that women discard every month. The eggs that you get at the grocery store are for the most part just eggs. At some point, however, you will crack one that has veins inside, full of blood. That one, is a chicken, a very young chicken, but a chicken none the less. When you are staring at a bloody mess in your frying pan, perhaps then you will be able to wrap your mind around the concept. My bet is that when it happens to you, that you won't go ahead and eat it because you will instinctively know that it isn't "just an egg".

Rider there are all sorts of conceptus that Americans do not eat. In other cultures it is a very different story. They eat stuff that would make you vomit and many in the world think that what Americans eat is just plain gross. We choose not to eat humans in any form (unless conditions are very dire) for social reasons. But unless something has changed I am not aware that women that have abortions are required to eat it. But even if your average American would not eat a partially formed chicken they would still be able to tell the difference between it and a chicken. All except you of course.

Starboy

[MerlinsByte]

Excerped from starboys post and the added content by me the one and only merlin....... Rider there are all :::::: blah blah denial denial BS and more BS::::ce between it and a chicken. All except you of course.Starboy

Really is this guy worth the time? He never wins debates by logic and must resort to vile insults and personal attacks. His prime motivate is however fear that he has nothing right. When he faces this fear and admits it will be the first step on a hopefully 12 step program to emerge out of the blinders of denial he is burdened with. Good luck starboy I hope you get well soon.


mb

[Starboy]

Quote by: MerlinsByte Really is this guy worth the time? He never wins debates by logic and must resort to vile insults and personal attacks. His prime motivate is however fear that he has nothing right. When he faces this fear and admits it will be the first step on a hopefully 12 step program to emerge out of the blinders of denial he is burdened with. Good luck starboy I hope you get well soon. mb

Merlin, were you looking in the mirror when you wrote that? Here is my advice to you, pull the log out of your own eye.

Starboy

[samsara15]

How much do you remember about the first year of your life? Life begins when we have will and memory of it. An embryo has neither.

[Starboy]

Quote by: samsara15 How much do you remember about the first year of your life? Life begins when we have will and memory of it. An embryo has neither.

I agree with that. And from a scientific point of view it will not attain that state until there are billions of cells present and of the correct type and working in concert to allow that to happen. Until that happens, if people call it a human being they are only being nice. It would be like calling a brain dead person a human being.

Starboy

[fedfem]

A brain dead human is still a human.

Life is the term that needs to be defined. An embryo is a human embryo according to the DNA.

[FIFI]

an embryo is nothing but a clump of growing cells. They have no mind, no memory, no feeling, thats a five month cell my be "living" but it is not a life.

[fedfem]

Quote by: FIFI an embryo is nothing but a clump of growing cells. They have no mind, no memory, no feeling, thats a five month cell my be "living" but it is not a life.

I agree

[Starboy]

Quote by: fedfem A brain dead human is still a human.

I disagree. A brain dead human was a human being. Just as a conceptus is yet to be a human being.

Starboy

[fedfem]

Not sure what your argument is here. Seems we are just playing the semantics game. Just to clarify...an embryo is not a viable human being(without medical intervention) until well into the third trimester.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: samsara15 How much do you remember about the first year of your life? Life begins when we have will and memory of it. An embryo has neither.

So, if someone doesn't remember anything prior to age four, his life hasn't begun yet? If the embryo doesn't have life, what does it have? It takes in nourishment, it grows, it responds somewhat to environmental stimuli: I'd say it has life.