Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[Jack]

Those words were added in 1954 as a reaction to the hysteria over the spread of Communism. I prefer to go by the Constitution than a phrase tacked onto the Pledge of Allegiance.

[ChinUp]

Quote by: doc303 Secular country? "...one nation under God..." - or do you prefer that with a lower case "g" BTW - Spiritual was capitalized.

Ever read the Declaration of Independence ? Or read Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

This is a Baruch Spinoza use of the word God, popular with those seeking relgious independence from the deity worshiping religions of Europe. Do not make the mistake that the God in the pledge is the God in the bible. A better way of pointing @ a lack of secularism in the states is the presence of Bibles in courtrooms..

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Abortion is part of responsible family planning, people have practiced family planning for over seven thousand years, becasue it is deeply irresponsible to have unplanned children.

[doc303]

[quote=ChinUp;470091]Ever read the Declaration of Independence ? Or read Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

This is a Baruch Spinoza use of the word God, popular with those seeking relgious independence from the deity worshiping religions of Europe. Do not make the mistake that the God in the pledge is the God in the bible. A better way of pointing @ a lack of secularism in the states is the presence of Bibles in courtrooms..


The tenor of this treaty does not surprise me as the involved signatories would, by any standards, be considered Deists, rather than Christians. This does not, however abridge the fact that 68% of Americans today consider themselves to be Christian, making ours - by default, a Christian Nation. To them the God in the pledge is the God in the Bible.

'Noted rather quietly is the point that the Treaty of Tripoli "remained on the books for eight years, at which time the treaty was renegotiated, and Article 11 was dropped."'

[loser]

I think sex is just an act that has no purpose other than pleasure, it's not complicated.

You just proved that evolution is not working.

All the ladies I know, who had abortions, felt deeply disturbed about it. they dont just say coldly 'its just a douzen cells I sucked out', they think of it as the opportunity cost, the baby. This is why they need councelling somtimes.

It's no different than a soldier killing a stranger in a strange land. Though it may not legally be murder for a soldier to kill an 'enemy' or for a woman to abort a fetus, the moral conscience (guilt) dictated by moral law (the ability to intrinsically know right from wrong) is not alleviated by this fact. Hence, deep-seated pathos and shame.

Who is going to care for the child ? Do you advocate torture .. is it not torture to push a child into existence who's parents are not ready or it, torture to push an adult or youth into parenthood ?

1. The parents (or a substitute care-giver)

2. No, no, and no. It's called life, growing up, and accepting responsibility.

Can you think of a more horrific thing to do to somebody than take their own offspring from them ?

Let's see...I'm picturing you tied to a torture rack and I see a really twisted, bent maniac with a set of tools and a vivid (but very morbid) imagination and I'm thinking, ooh, this is pretty horriffic...did you need that body part or did you just really want it?

I can, make them have offspring against their will.

Gosh, I guess this is CONCEIVABLY possible, but I've never been so lucky as to be forced into (unprotected) sex. Hey, if you want to make me make babies, I'm up for it (we need to genetically upgrade the species, anyway).

Children need love & care,...

Which would begin by NOT KILLING THEM!

not something we have a surplus of @ all,...

Which explains the high rate of abortion proponents.

Parenthood is about responsibility & maturity, having a child when your not ready, or advocating somebody has a child before they are ready shows zero responsibility & maturity IMO.

Yes it is and having a child (especially before you are ready) forces one to grow up (mature) and accept responsibility. Of course, with the lack of strong, parental nurturing in the world today, very few children ever want to grow up; they prefer to remain irresponsible.

Say for a moment that life does begin at conception(it's stupid to say something with no sentience is a person, but lets humor ourselves)

What insentience did it take to come to this conclusion?

Why does the fetus have the right to take biological resources from the mother?

For the same reason you have the right to take resources (read as food) from the earth.

If it can, why can't i take someones spare kidney if i need one?

I personally don't agree with it and it's not quite the same relationship as the womb/fetus but they call it organ donations and yes, you can.

I think its better than pre modern superstition

People are more superstitious than ever...it's increasing all the time.

I like not having to worried about being drowned because people think i caused an eclipse.

Yeah, that was one of the main worries back in ye days of olde.

If there is no chance at all that you will ever remember anything from the womb, then who gives a crap what happened in it??

How about the father?

Abortion is part of responsible family planning, people have practiced family planning for over seven thousand years, becasue it is deeply irresponsible to have unplanned children.

That is about the stupidest saying that I have ever read. Who did you quote for that turd dropping?

Duh-uh, I hate to be the one to tell you but abortion is a sign of complete LACK of planning...and there's absolutely nothing responsible about it. Abortion shows a callous disregard of human life (other than one's self) and is the epitome of irresponsibility.

[Jack]

This does not, however abridge the fact that 68% of Americans today consider themselves to be Christian, making ours - by default, a Christian Nation. To them the God in the pledge is the God in the Bible.

Sorry, but we have this document called the Constitution that says Christians, no matter how much in the majority, do not get to assume this is a Christian nation by default or any other means short of a Constitutional amendment. America is not, and I would hope will never be, a theocracy.

[ChinUp]

loser .. Clearly you have no concept of what caring entails, If you think handing over a baby into "care" is a caring thing to do you are desperately misguided .

Family planning (abortion) is a key component of evolved human society. Choosing when, if & with whom you become a parent with is a vital part of liberated adulthood. To interfere with peoples liberty to decide if, when & with whom they have children is to treat people like slaves.

Do feel free to continue to attempt to scare me into thinking destroying family, reproductive responsibility, peoples lives is the moral thing to do. :)

[doc303]

Quote by: Isherwood Sorry, but we have this document called the Constitution that says Christians, no matter how much in the majority, do not get to assume this is a Christian nation by default or any other means short of a Constitutional amendment. America is not, and I would hope will never be, a theocracy.

We have always had a federal republic and with His Grace always will have. The term theocracy is a misnomer given our constitution but it clearly defines the hearts of the average American. Because of the church/state separation concept designed by Roger Williams in 1640, Jefferson - 135 years later - adopted the thought in his own writings. This means, isherwood, you may enjoy the freedom of disbelieving in everything but yourself, whilst I may rejoice in my Salvation thru Jesus Christ - right here in America - side by side

The constitution still forbids establishment of religion - amendment or not..

[vash the sane]

What insentience did it take to come to this conclusion?

Well, it's kind of hard for a being to be sentient without a fully developed brain, isn't it?

For the same reason you have the right to take resources (read as food) from the earth.

I am not infringing upon the earths rights(whatever rights you can give to giant rock). The fetus is infringing upon the mothers rights.

I personally don't agree with it and it's not quite the same relationship as the womb/fetus but they call it organ donations and yes, you can.

I mean taking someones spare kidney against their will. Just as the fetus takes resources from the mother against her will, in some cases.

[Mr. Big]

Quote by: dotcoma I used to be pro-choice, but I thought about it for a while, and the privacy issue no longer makes sense to me. If you truly beleive life begins at conception then you have no right to privately destroy that life. It is like taking someone's life in your basement and claiming prosecution would be a violation of privacy in my opinion. So what are you feelings on this controversial social issue?

If life does not start until conception, then whatever went into making that life would not be alive before conception. The spirm and egg went into making that life, so then the spirm and egg would not be alive. But we certainly believe those two cells to be alive, so your idea about when life starts cannot be true.

Also, regarding the the zygote: it is not part of the woman's body. If the zygote is part of the woman's body, then you have to have justification for why any stage of development after the zygote, including post-birth, is not part of the woman's body.

You could argue that the zygote is part of the woman's body because the zygote is inside the woman's body, but then we wouldn't consider a tapeworm part of the woman's body, so that answer doesn't seem plausable. Alternatively, you could argue that the zygote is part of the woman's body because it is attached to the woman's body, but then we run into three problems. First, a leach can be attached to the woman's body, but we wouldn't consider that part of the woman's body, either. Second, if we use attachement, we would have to conclude that the zygote is both part and not part of the woman's body at differing stages. The zygote is not attached to the woman on its way to being housed on the wall of the uterous. This would mean that all that time the zygote hasn't been part of the woman's body. Third, we generally assume that a person has ownership over their body, so a hand that has been cut off would still be owned and (we would consider) be still part of the woman's body.

So on all those arguments the zygote cannot be part of the woman's body.

[loser]

loser .. Clearly you have no concept of what caring entails, If you think handing over a baby into "care" is a caring thing to do you are desperately misguided .

I think it is horrrible that children are not raised by both of their biological parents. The traditional family unit is the ideal environment for the ideal nurturing that provides the ideal physical and mental development of a child. Alas, we live in anything but an ideal world.

Ironically, I am AGAINST practically ALL adoptions, with just a few exceptions. Nevertheless, abortion is the worst of all evils. As bad as adoption can be, abortion is ALWAYS bad, no exceptions. Even after instances of rape, abortion is STILL bad. What? Should I kill your child because of what you did?

I have a very clear concept of "caring", whether we are talking about caring only for ourselves or caring for others. If you think that abortions are done for the sake of the child, think again. The perceived beneficiary is ALWAYS either the mother or the father or both, but NEVER thw child. Abortion is simply making someone else pay for YOUR mistake. It's not taking responsibility for your actions. It's irresponsible and uncaring.

Do feel free to continue to attempt to scare me into thinking destroying family, reproductive responsibility, peoples lives is the moral thing to do. :)

The underlined words above ALL define abortion and they are definitely NOT the moral thing to do. No matter how bad you have been misguided, if you have abortions you will suffer severely from it. The human psyche is relatively fragile and inherent truths are not easily discarded. Talk to some women (with children) who have had abortions in their past. Talk to some others who are not able to have children because of abortions. If you still feel the same, then perhaps your lack of empathy is a good thing for you and you should avoid pregnancy at all costs, even abortion. Still, I would strongly advise against it. Not just for the child, but for you, as well.

Of course, if you are MALE, and are arguing for abortion...surprise, surprise...aren't you special.

Well, it's kind of hard for a being to be sentient without a fully developed brain, isn't it?

I think that's pretty presumptious, don't you think? Perhaps the word you mean is sapience. As far as I can determine, the simplest cells have sentience and it's not a trait exclusive to humans. Life is extremely more complex than most people give it credit for and I find no reason to place humans at the apex of intelligence. In fact, I think that the brain is probably a detriment to our ability to 'sense'.

I am not infringing upon the earths rights(whatever rights you can give to giant rock). The fetus is infringing upon the mothers rights

Think about this for a moment. Who has "rights"? Are they not arbitrarily assigned by the species in control? Is it not humans who decide who get rights? In fact, isn't this power even further concentrated into the hands of a few? How long have women had rights? Blacks? How about animals, do they have rights? So why not a tomato plant; why doesn't it have rights?

What you do are conscious acts. If you walk through an orchard and pick a peach from a tree, it was a conscious act. You are forcing your will upon a weaker species, one who cannot defend itself against your onslaught. A peach may not want to be picked and eaten but it is helpless to resist. It succumbs to your INFRINGEMENT!

Yet, how in Sam Hill can you accuse a fetus of infringing upon the mother's rights? With your reasoning, if I kicked you in the face with my boots, your face would be infringing on the rights of my boots. Does that make sense to you? The fetus did not choose to be placed in the mother's womb. It is only there through a specific act by that very mother. She allowed a depositor to make a deposit in her bank. Now, it could have been an unauthorized deposit. Nevertheless, you can blame the depositor or even blame the 'bank' but you CANNOT blame the deposit!

I mean taking someones spare kidney against their will. Just as the fetus takes resources from the mother against her will, in some cases.

As should already be perfectly clear, the fetus is not TAKING anything, it was put there through no impetus of its own.

[ChinUp]

loser .. what you fail to realize is that a child has needs, adults have needs. You push parenthood on adults, push a life onto a child that is ill conceived without any regard for the effects.

Humans plan parenthood. Animals do not. Playing Russian roulette with parenthood will never = responsibility .. We have a shortage of love & care available for children & adults, we have a surplus of children & adults who need love & care, & you suggest we compound the situation by having children the parents have not planned.

Do you know the saying ?

"You don't drop the basket of eggs to save the one that falls"

[Jack]

Ironically, I am AGAINST practically ALL adoptions, with just a few exceptions. Nevertheless, abortion is the worst of all evils. As bad as adoption can be, abortion is ALWAYS bad, no exceptions. Even after instances of rape, abortion is STILL bad. What? Should I kill your child because of what you did?

I would suggest replacing "ironically" with "illogically". Without the option of adoption, how are all those unwanted, un-aborted children going to be cared for?

you can blame the depositor or even blame the 'bank' but you CANNOT blame the deposit!

No one's blaming the fetus of anything. Abortion isn't an act of revenge or judgment.

[loser]

No one's blaming the fetus of anything. Abortion isn't an act of revenge or judgment.

Perhaps I don't understand the meaning of infringement but when ChinUp says that "The fetus is infringing upon the mothers rights" it seems to suggest blame as if it is a willful act. I take it, then, that you agree that the fetus is NOT infringing on the mother's rights.

I would suggest replacing "ironically" with "illogically". Without the option of adoption, how are all those unwanted, un-aborted children going to be cared for?

If I make some unwanted bills, who has to take care of them, the taxpayers? How about the parties responsible caring for their own creations. You know the old saying: "You made your bed now sleep in it". Is there a better way to teach people responsibility than to make them responsible for their actions?

loser .. what you fail to realize is that a child has needs, adults have needs. You push parenthood on adults, push a life onto a child that is ill conceived without any regard for the effects.

There are consequences for most of our actions. Generally, we are rewarded for correct choices and punished for bad choices. If you don't like the 'rules' imposed by society, then remove yourself from society. A person living in the wilderness can pretty much piss anywhere he choses. If he decides to live in a city full of other people, however, there are regulations to this otherwise liberty...he can't just piss where he wants to. It's that infringing thing that you brought up before. Just like there is fiscal responsibility (you make a bill, you pay the bill), there is also societal (read as family) responsibility. You create the child, you're obligated to take care of the child. It's simply the matter of taking responsibility for your actions.

You like sayings? How about:

"You danced all night, now it's time to pay the piper."

"If you can't stand the heat, don't put any buns in the oven."

"If Mary doesn't want to have a Little Lamb, Little Miss Muffett should watch her Hot Cross Buns, avoid Little Jack Horner, Bobby Shafto, the Muffin Man, Little Boy Blue, and Billy Boy; she shouldn't Ride a Cock-Horse To Banbury Cross, go Luby-Loo, get On Top of Old Smokey, lie Six in a Bed, go Humpty Dumpty, or Rub-A-Dub Dub Three Men In A Tub. If This Is The Way The Ladies Ride, She'll Be Coming Round The Mountain but she won't be singing Pop Goes the Weasel and won't have to say Bye Baby Bunting or Hush Little Baby because she won't be having John Brown's Baby."

(I think that's how that goes :-)

I know that (baby-producing) sex is not always consensual but it still involves more than one party. The mother does not have exclusive rights to the fetus in her womb any more than a banker has exclusive rights to the money deposited in his bank. There always exists a "good faith clause". Why should the mother be allowed to decide the future of that unborn fetus with complete disregard to the vested interests of others: the father, the grandparents, siblings and other family members, and even society at large.

Freedom and liberty are overrated as desirable conditions. There must be limits to these individual 'rights' for the good of all mankind.

Your body does not belong to you.

[ChinUp]

loser .. do you think sex is a gamble ?

Do you suppose family planning was invented to remove the gamble of sexual relations ?

[vash the sane]

As should already be perfectly clear, the fetus is not TAKING anything, it was put there through no impetus of its own.

Perhaps I don't understand the meaning of infringement but when ChinUp says that "The fetus is infringing upon the mothers rights" it seems to suggest blame as if it is a willful act. I take it, then, that you agree that the fetus is NOT infringing on the mother's rights.

Yes, it is. It is taking biological resources from the mother.Just ask and I can explain this to you if it's too complicated. It's the principle of bodily integrity, that no one owns our bodies but us.

Your body does not belong to you.

Oh, i forgot that a basic principle of our democracy was that your body belongs to the state, and they can tell you to do whatever they want you to for the greater good.

[ChinUp]

Quote by: loser Your body does not belong to you.

This is what a slave master says to slaves.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: dotcoma No, it is why I am against abortions. I think it is a violation of our ethics and it puts our regard for humanity into question.

Yes, but what about when or if the world had very little food. Ethically that would be bad to bring in additional lives that need a lot of food. Also, flipping that over, most abortions are performed because the mother is unable or doesn't have the means to care for it, or doesn't want it. Ethically, there are sound, yet subjective reasons for performing the act. Now if you were purposely getting pregnant to get abortions that would be ethically wrong and mentally deranged, but if that has ever happened it hasn't been the main reason most women have them performed.

I still say the mother's rights supersede the fetuses rights, and that's as it should be. There has been a formal conclusion on it that was made many years ago.

[ChinUp]

Marilyn Monroe .. Is a child not the product of two people, & thus family planning a matter for both men & women to be equally respected ? You would not wish to have a mans child against your will, what makes you think you should have the right to have a mans child against his will ?

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: ChinUp Marilyn Monroe .. Is a child not the product of two people, & thus family planning a matter for both men & women to be equally respected ? You would not wish to have a mans child against your will, what makes you think you should have the right to have a mans child against his will ?

The mother's rights supersede all others, even the father's. In most cases the men are involved, and they may actually be the one's wanting the abortion, don't forget that. Men more then women usually don't want kids. I'd bet, but have no proof, that let's say 50% of all abortions are with the father's approval. Father's could pick and choose too easily if it was also their decision, or they could do things for spite. "I don't like this woman so I'm going to force her to have this kid." Ultimately the one with the womb has the control. I see nothing difficult to understand about it.

[Jack_Sparrow]

I think you will find the doctor has the control. Like a God in some ways