Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[juanhar1]

Have you tried Cyber Sex,yet? Have all the fun you want without any of the headaches.

[Winter wind]

My argument is I don't know, because I'm not God. But until I'm sure, I'd rather be on the safe side.

[Nemiroff]

A fetus is nothing more then a parasite feeding of the mother's body until it is born. If you remove a fetus it will die, it cannot survive on it's own, and if it is threatening to seriously mess up the mother's life (and in turn the baby's as well) then it should be removed

(omg is he really talking about babies like that) yes I am, I was one too and guess what, if my mom was 15 with no money and no father I would rather have been aborted then to be born to a life of suffering and poverty, not only leading a miserable life, but makeing it miserable for my mother as well

[Ziggy Stardust]

*tisk tisk*. I cannot believe that people are still hung up on these things! To determine when life begins, you must define what life itself really is! You can't provide an answer to a question that is unknown.

One could say "Yes; life begins at conception" and that yes, an abortion in any manner is killing a living being.... Okay, what of it? Thats wrong with killing another human being? Throw out your religon, your societial standerds and morality, and your left with what defining reason that says "murder" is "wrong"? This doesn't even involve the government! They have no real control over somebody; we've just set some people in Ivory Towers so that people don't go completely nuts thinking about these things.

And you can't be immoral if you don't believe in morality; to be the opposite of something there must be something to mirror. So what! You kill someone; theres no God, so no long term consequences like hell. Sure you may go to jail, but thats only because society has placed "laws" againest un-just killing (a soldier can kill 23 people an be a hero, but a woman who has an abortion is a criminal?)

Can anyone provide an answer to why you shouldn't kill someone? Not just a fetus, but a grown person. Like, maybe a 34 year-old guy who works at Red Lobster; why couldn't you kill him?

[Nemiroff]

you could, but you shouldn't

but nothing is black and white of course, as many people try to over simplify things.

a murderer about to strike again can be killed if your saving lives, or sacrificing a few for the lives of many, considering no other options.

there are many cases when it could be ok to kill, but for the most part, you shouldn't do it.

[doc303]

As I stand on John 3:16, I must also stand on Ps 139:13 ff and Jeremiah 1:5.

Life is initiated at conception. A mystery, you say? Yes, as surely as much of Christianity is a mystery - a supernatural one at that.

That is precisely what His gift of faith is for.

[Ziggy Stardust]

So would you agree that the events LEADING to the action (abortion) and the consequences of it are "evil" or is the action itself?

[loser]

A fetus is nothing more then a parasite feeding of the mother's body until it is born.

A parasite has life.

If you remove a fetus it will die, it cannot survive on it's own, and if it is threatening to seriously mess up the mother's life (and in turn the baby's as well) then it should be removed

Even a baby as old as two years cannot survive on its own (at what age would you give a child a decent chance of survival if left on its own?). My daughter has a four month old baby that is "seriously mess(ing) up the mother's life". Are you saying that my daughter should have the right to "remove" her son because he is messing up her life (her college and work plans)?

Heck, I bet there are a lot of us out here in the world who have various people messing up our lives. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could just remove whoever we wanted that cramped our style? I wonder...maybe even me or you might get removed.

I was one too and guess what, if my mom was 15 with no money and no father I would rather have been aborted then to be born to a life of suffering and poverty, not only leading a miserable life, but makeing it miserable for my mother as well

You're making a lot of assumptions here...you must be very young (I bet that you are still one...relatively speaking). Some of the greatest people to have ever lived came from some of the very worst conditions as a child (starving, orphans, etc.). Some of the worst human beings to have ever lived (some that SHOULD HAVE been aborted at birth) were born into the best of conditions (rich, famous, married, successful parents). You obviously haven't thought this through very much. There is no way of telling exactly who you are killing when you abort a child. You may have just murdered the person who would have discovered the cure for aids (or any great acheivement that you can think of). You just never know and a child conceived through a violent rape may turn out to be a much better asset to humanity than one born under the 'best' conditions.

[doc303]

Quote by: Ziggy Stardust So would you agree that the events LEADING to the action (abortion) and the consequences of it are "evil" or is the action itself?

All civil murder is evil - the contemplation of it - the act itself - it makes no difference. However, it is forgivable as long as one ceases the activity and seeks forgiveness.

Eternity is a long time to pay for such a crime.

[doc303]

Quote by: loser A parasite has life. Even a baby as old as two years cannot survive on its own (at what age would you give a child a decent chance of survival if left on its own?). My daughter has a four month old baby that is "seriously mess(ing) up the mother's life". Are you saying that my daughter should have the right to "remove" her son because he is messing up her life (her college and work plans)? Heck, I bet there are a lot of us out here in the world who have various people messing up our lives. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could just remove whoever we wanted that cramped our style? I wonder...maybe even me or you might get removed. You're making a lot of assumptions here...you must be very young (I bet that you are still one...relatively speaking). Some of the greatest people to have ever lived came from some of the very worst conditions as a child (starving, orphans, etc.). Some of the worst human beings to have ever lived (some that SHOULD HAVE been aborted at birth) were born into the best of conditions (rich, famous, married, successful parents). You obviously haven't thought this through very much. There is no way of telling exactly who you are killing when you abort a child. You may have just murdered the person who would have discovered the cure for aids (or any great acheivement that you can think of). You just never know and a child conceived through a violent rape may turn out to be a much better asset to humanity than one born under the 'best' conditions.

I'll add an Amen to that. (love the beetle - hate the dung)

[Ziggy Stardust]

Quote by: doc303 All civil murder is evil - the contemplation of it - the act itself - it makes no difference. However, it is forgivable as long as one ceases the activity and seeks forgiveness. Eternity is a long time to pay for such a crime.

This reminds me of that old ad for Resse's peanut-butter cups, except this time you got your religion in my ethics.

Unless you’re saying you have tangible evidence of a small room with a coloring book and a box of all green crayons (this is my version of an eternal punishment) or any other places like, oh say… “Hell”? Then I’d like to be so valiant to suggest another scare tactic with a more substantial corollary than Hell. And what happens to the criminal who kills somebody and like you said, ceases killing and seeks forgiveness or to the woman who has an abortion AND who wasn’t really sorry? Couldn’t a criminal so easily lie and claim to be sorry?

Then there’s the argument of “what if they find the cure to-“ blah blah blah… you can’t play that card. All you’re doing is throwing out “What If?” situations! Anyone can suppose something will happen; it’s called seeing the future. Do you claim to know the future before it happens? And besides; the number of abortions is so extremely low compared to the number of births that even if you could measure the likeliness of an aborted baby finding or doing something great, that there are 20 living babies who could do the same thing!

And yes, a parasite is a life… actually, parasites are the most successful life forms known of.

[loser]

Eternity is a long time to pay for such a crime.

Yes, but when you're dead (or even asleep, for that matter) there is no recognition of the passing of time.

Unless you’re saying you have tangible evidence of a small room with a coloring book and a box of all green crayons (this is my version of an eternal punishment) or any other places like, oh say… “Hell”?

You probably envision 'hell' as a place of eternal torment (like the farcical Dante's Inferno) but, uh, yeah, I have tangible evidence. Wanna see?

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Ziggy Stardust Can anyone provide an answer to why you shouldn't kill someone? Not just a fetus, but a grown person. Like, maybe a 34 year-old guy who works at Red Lobster; why couldn't you kill him?

Very simple, because you want nobody should kill you !!!

[Ziggy Stardust]

Quote by: Kuldeep Very simple, because you want nobody should kill you !!!

That is simply un-true! I'm all up for dying; and believe me, that asshole at Red Lobster has it comin' to him; I'll show him who's out of butter!
(makes a gun with his hand and mocks shooting) psh! Poow!

And I don't understand peoples vision of Hell; if it's all magma (assuming it's underground) and fire, wouldn't we vaporize?

[kfinkelstein]

If we are wondering when a fetus fullfills the definition of life, is well before birth itself, and well after conception. The question we should be asking, and which none of us have the means to answer, is when does intelligence occur a fetus, thus making them fundamentally human. Before that point, as disconcerting as it might sound, the human fetus is nothing more than the fetus of any other animal. Then, of course, you have to define intelligence and potential for it, but that is another question altogether.

[Winter wind]

If we are wondering when a fetus fullfills the definition of life, is well before birth itself, and well after conception. The question we should be asking, and which none of us have the means to answer, is when does intelligence occur a fetus, thus making them fundamentally human. Before that point, as disconcerting as it might sound, the human fetus is nothing more than the fetus of any other animal. Then, of course, you have to define intelligence and potential for it, but that is another question altogether.

What about a severely mentally handicapped person. Should they die (especially if they will get better in nine months)? Intelligence isn't a measure of humanity. Genes are. Fetus has the same genes a human has and will grow into a human. (as opposed to saliva you spit out).

i don't think a law should be made (as im not sure I'm completely right), nor do I think people who have abortions are evil or killers, but I think that until empirical evidence is given, there should be a caution out there.

[kfinkelstein]

Note how I pointed out that definition of intelligence is another questions altogether. I am simply stating that when the fetus becomes intelligent, it becomes more of a human than we can morally end the life of. Whether they will "get better" or develop intelligence later on doesn't matter, as they dont have it currently. We are killing them now, not in nine months.

[Winter wind]

Note how I pointed out that definition of intelligence is another questions altogether. I am simply stating that when the fetus becomes intelligent, it becomes more of a human than we can morally end the life of. Whether they will "get better" or develop intelligence later on doesn't matter, as they dont have it currently. We are killing them now, not in nine months.

yes but if we have the knowledge that this state is temporary and will change, isn't it the same as pulling the life support of a person that we know will become better but is in a coma now (intelligence is low then). how do we differentiate?

[ShadowFox]

The question is vague in some regards. Life could mean cells. tissues, etc. I do know what you mean though so I will post accordingly. In My personal opinion, I believe "life" starts at birth. By life i mean actual thought processes and senses starting to occur. Therefore termination of the pregnancy wouldn't be killing a child. The only thing it really kills is cells, which we kill all the time. That is my opinion.

[kfinkelstein]

The person in question would have had intelligence in the past, rather than speculated intelligence in the future. Either way, both are very delicate situations very different from one another.

The question is vague in some regards. Life could mean cells. tissues, etc. I do know what you mean though so I will post accordingly. In My personal opinion, I believe "life" starts at birth. By life i mean actual thought processes and senses starting to occur. Therefore termination of the pregnancy wouldn't be killing a child. The only thing it really kills is cells, which we kill all the time. That is my opinion.

Edit: I assume the classic definition of life, that being:
Homeostasis
Multi-cellular
Metabolism
Growth/development
Adaptation
Stimuli response
Reproductive ablilities

The fetus aquires all of these traits excluding the last one quite early into pregnancy.