Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[pikatore]

Quote by: texasdave Marilyn Monroe, Very few women die in childbirth. And saying saggy boobs and stretch marks are damage is just stupid. And vain.

... well, it sounds a hell of a lot like damage to me. You should try and have a kid sometime... you'd look pretty stupid yourself saying the above.

Quote by: texasdave Would you like to know how much damage abortion causes? Some women who have abortions are unable to conceive afterwards. Others are killed by the procedure. The vast majority are emotionally scarred. And that's just the damage to the woman.

Don't blame abortion, blame the producure used. There are many ways of aborting a foetus. I hope I don't have to go through each one to you to stop you from trying to give abortion such a bad stigma.

Quote by: texasdave The unborn child is always killed.

It's called a foetus! Use the terminology! And why are you stating the bleeding obvious? Do I smell appeal to emotion, YET AGAIN?

Quote by: texasdave And not just that child but every human being that that unborn child would have ever conceived.

Crap. We'd better take the mother to court for mass genocide...

Quote by: texasdave Abortion kills babies and destroys generations. We have murdered 47 million of our own citizens since 1973.

A FOETUS ISNT A CITIZEN, AND DOESNT HAVE RIGHTS AS ONE. OMG.

As I read through each of your replies, I am getting more of the impression that either you are incredibly stubborn, or actually not registering what is being said to you. Appeal to emotion is written all over your 'argument', and you CONTINUAL future tense usage shows that.

Moving an audience that is uneducated in the subject matter to tears proves nothing.

[texasdave]

picatore,
I noticed you did not even try to argue about the effects of abortion to social security. I'm glad you agree with that and recognize the damage killing our children causes to everyone. They are children and I will not use your dehumanizing terminology. And there is emotion in this issue because it is the murder of unborn babies. If that does not get you emotional the your heart is hard and I will pray for you.

[Hmm]

Quote by: texasdave picatore, They are children and I will not use your dehumanizing terminology.

Let me give you the definition for the word "child."

Quote by: Dictionary a person between birth and full growth

And yet you continue to preach that a fetus is a child? :rolleyes:

Quote by: texasdave And there is emotion in this issue because it is the murder of unborn babies.

I suggest you study a list of logical fallacies. Here's what an "appeal to emotion" is defined as:

Appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy which uses the manipulation of the recipient's emotions, rather than valid logic, to win an argument. This kind of appeal to emotion is a type of red herring and encompasses several logical fallacies, including: Appeal to consequences Appeal to fear Appeal to flattery Appeal to pity Appeal to ridicule Appeal to spite Wishful thinking

[pikatore]

Quote by: texasdave picatore, I noticed you did not even try to argue about the effects of abortion to social security. I'm glad you agree with that and recognize the damage killing our children causes to everyone.

Social security is purely an American concern, not an international one. It's irrelevant to the issue on a world scale.

Quote by: texasdave They are children and I will not use your dehumanizing terminology.

ROFL. Last time I checked, they ARENT children. Check Hmm's post.

And there is emotion in this issue because it is the murder of unborn babies.

if you think emotion is involved, then I'm afraid you simply are ignorant of the subject matter. To know the proper stages and features of embryonic development, like I do, when looking at abortion, I can draw a decent line. You, unfortunately, see a vague cloud between conception and birth, and hence, have no choice but to preach.

Quote by: texasdave If that does not get you emotional the your heart is hard and I will pray for you.

... BAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAH

[texasdave]

Picatore,
I will pray for you. That you come to the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Jubloz]

Quote by: texasdave Picatore, I will pray for you. That you come to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Speaking of, when are you going to be denying the holy spirit?

[pikatore]

Quote by: texasdave Picatore, I will pray for you. That you come to the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry, but on a debating forum, of all places, that ^ is NOT a very effective way to debate.

You want to win the argument? Debate. Don't patronise me with your religious twaddle - do that to someone else. I get very angry when I argue with a person whose religion dictates thier moral views, only to be told something like that.

I take that as a concession. Come back when you've got an argument to make.

[texasdave]

I will not be denying the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is also God.

[texasdave]

picatore,
I don't see how praying for you could possibly make you angry. My purpose is here is to debate a little and evangelize a lot.

[pikatore]

Quote by: texasdave picatore, I don't see how praying for you could possibly make you angry. My purpose is here is to debate a little and evangelize a lot.

I noticed. What dissappoints me is, you know you're doing it.

[texasdave]

Of course I know I'm doing it. And I'm not just doing it for those who post on here. There are many who read and do not post. I'm writing for them too.

[Jubloz]

Quote by: texasdave I will not be denying the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is also God.

Quote by: Zhavric So long as you agree that if you are unable to provide evidence Jesus existed you will take the Blasphemy Challenge and deny the Holy Spirit.

Does that mean that you have some more evidence to contribute to Zhavric's thread? Or are you breaching the contract, thus being a lier? Remember now, lying is a sin:

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

[texasdave]

I NEVER agreed to deny the Holy Spirit. No Christian would. Quote the statement made by ME agreeing to that. There is none. Nice try. I am through debating with Zhavric because he tries to cheat by not applying the same standard of evidence to his opponents as he does himself. He denies God not because of a lack of evidence but because he lacks the WILL to receive God.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: texasdave Marilyn Monroe, Very few women die in childbirth. And saying saggy boobs and stretch marks are damage is just stupid. And vain. Would you like to know how much damage abortion causes? Some women who have abortions are unable to conceive afterwards. Others are killed by the procedure. The vast majority are emotionally scarred. And that's just the damage to the woman. The unborn child is always killed. And not just that child but every human being that that unborn child would have ever conceived. Abortion kills babies and destroys generations. We have murdered 47 million of our own citizens since 1973. Want to know why Social Security is insolvent? Because it was designed to work with a growing population and its framers never even dreamed in the 30's that abortion would come along 40 years later. So we have killed 47 million taxpayers PLUS the children they would have had so add maybe another 10 million or so that are gone from the tax roles. Abortion, therefore, endangers the elderly who live on Social Security. They will have to absorb reduced benefits to keep the system solvent AND we'll all have to pay higher taxes. Guess what? That harms you! That harms the women you supposedly want to help with providing abortion. That harms born children. Congratulations abortion supporters you are part of the problem with Social Security. Thanks a lot.

Texasdave, this is the most absurd argument I have ever seen in two years of online debate on this issue. It makes me cringe to even try to respond to this, but since I think anyone who is willing to formulate an argument deserves at least some response, let me see what I can do.

First of all: the population has been growing since Roe v. Wade. Check the census. U.S. population in 1970 was around 200 million, now it is around 300 million.
Secondly: the problem with social security is most definitely NOT that there are too few taxpayers, it is that there are too many claimants. Too many people living longer than they were supposed to when social security was originally put into place, as the average lifespan is about ten years longer now than it was then. People's benefits are figured for a lifespan of about 70-75 years, or about ten years after retirement -- and we are living to 85, or twenty years after retirement. There would be enough coming in, but there's too much going out.
Thirdly: while you're right that abortion can occasionally cause serious health problems, pregnancy and childbearing is more dangerous.

The risk of abortion complications is minimal; fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization. Abortions performed in the first trimester pose virtually no long-term risk of such problems as infertility, ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or congenital malformation (birth defect), and little or no risk of preterm or low-birth-weight deliveries. Exhaustive reviews by panels convened by the U.S. and British governments have concluded that there is no association between abortion and breast cancer. There is also no indication that abortion is a risk factor for other types of cancer. In repeated studies since the early 1980s, leading experts have concluded that abortion does not pose a hazard to women’s mental health. The risk of death associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy, from one death for every one million abortions at or before eight weeks to one per 29,000 at 16–20 weeks—and one per 11,000 at 21 or more weeks. The risk of death associated with childbirth is about 12 times as high as that associated with abortion.

(emphasis added)

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States


And by the way, let me also say that the offer to pray for your opponents is not only horribly condescending, in that you are saying that you are blessed and we are damned, but it also implies that any salvation we may be able to hope for will come from you and not from our own repentance and/or prayers, which puts you on a level with, well, God. Pretty danged offensive, IMO.

[Jubloz]

Quote by: texasdave I NEVER agreed to deny the Holy Spirit. No Christian would. Quote the statement made by ME agreeing to that. There is none. Nice try. I am through debating with Zhavric because he tries to cheat by not applying the same standard of evidence to his opponents as he does himself.

You did. You entered his thread and began debating him in it, thus agreeing to the terms he stated within his first post. Zhavric supplied you with immense amounts of evidence to counter the few arguments you made. In the end, you came out lacking. I wonder, did you run out of paperwork to back your claim? Did, in that moment, doubt cross your mind? Remember, even if your mind slips and you, for a second, doubted, you are condemned to hell for all eternity.

Quote by: texasdave He denies God not because of a lack of evidence but because he lacks the WILL to receive God.

Hahahaha, Dave, you make me laugh. Please never leave. You may lack background in any of the subjects necessary for debate, but you certainly make a terrific comedian. I know, it sounds sarcastic, but I promise that these words are authentic. Your posts almost always leave me with a grin.

[texasdave]

coffee,
The population has been growing but if we had not eliminated about 50 million of our taxpayers then the population growth would have been greater than it was and it would have compensated for the rise in life expectancies. The framers of the plan were well aware of increasing lifespans since medical technology was increasing in their day. They could predict the future needs of the plan by looking at birth rates. What they did not anticipate was the demographic disaster of abortion and the harm it would cause to the Social Security system they were crafting. You cannot eliminate 50 million people without some economic impact.

[texasdave]

jubloz,
I made no statement that I would ever deny the Holy Spirit. I did not agree to do so by entering the debate. That was an assumption made by Zhavric. And by you.

[pikatore]

Quote by: texasdave You cannot eliminate 50 million people without some economic impact.

ARHGHHH THEY ARENT PEOPLE, THEY HAVE NO AFFECT ON THE ECONOMY TO BEGIN WITH. YOUR REASONING IS EXTREMELY FLAWED.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: texasdave coffee, The population has been growing but if we had not eliminated about 50 million of our taxpayers then the population growth would have been greater than it was and it would have compensated for the rise in life expectancies. The framers of the plan were well aware of increasing lifespans since medical technology was increasing in their day. They could predict the future needs of the plan by looking at birth rates. What they did not anticipate was the demographic disaster of abortion and the harm it would cause to the Social Security system they were crafting. You cannot eliminate 50 million people without some economic impact.

Still a joke, dave. Each person is supposed to take out of social security what each person puts into it. The government never had the intention of having current taxpayers fund retired people; the intention was to create a national savings account, a retirement fund that each person paid into and each person (and their dependents) took out of.

It doesn't matter that there are 50 million people fewer than there might have been -- a number I find so laughable that I refuse to use it any more. Not only did the aborted fetuses never make it to the status of a person, but arguing that their children were also eliminated? You might as well argue that birth control pills and condoms have slaughtered 100 million people, as surely there have been that many conceptions blocked. Or the number of people killed when someone changed their mind about having sex! Or when people like me decided not to have kids! My god, I have killed 2.3 people that never existed! I'm a mass murderer!

There could be 50 trillion people eliminated, as long as they were eliminated before they entered the system. In fact, since 50 million figments of your imagination never made it into reality, we have saved billions of dollars on schooling, medicine, and other social services. Since many of those figments (which I will refer to hereafter as Smurfs) would have become criminals, we have saved billions in court fees and incarceration costs. We have also prevented hundreds of thousands of crimes. In fact, by arguing that all of those Smurfs should have been born, you are saying that you want there to be more criminals! How can you support rape and murder, dave? And here I thought you were a Christian.

[againstthewind]

Quote by: texasdave We give the unborn only ONE right. The right to life. To be left alone to develop naturally and be born, if possible. That's all. That right does not infringe on the mother's rights unless her physical life is in imminent jeapordy from the pregnancy ( like an ectopic pregnancy) then her right to life takes precedence and abortion is O.K.

Amen