Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[Ken Carman]

I had to choose "other." "Life" is a matter of degrees, not a black and white issue. Of course there are few such issues. Is a sperm alive? Mostly not, but it does have elements of life to it. The fetus? More so, especially as months go on. I'm met far too many of the elderly in the nursing homes I visit who qualify less as "life" than other stages in the process.

I feel it's the wrong question. Do we have the right to take life? I believe, "Yes, with extreme limitations." I respect those who disagree although it's almost impossible to live without doing so. When, who and how do we take it, if we must? That is the more valid question.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Pooeypants I told you already, I don't regard it as killing, so your question has no relevance for me.

Explain to me how you square stopping a life with not killing. Or, are you able to demonstrate in some real way that an unborn is not alive? Your view is what has no relavence. You may as well say the earth is flat and it rests on the back of a turtle as to say that a life has been terminated but nothing was killed.

If you hold a postion, you should be able to justify it in some manner.

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: Pale RIder Explain to me how you square stopping a life with not killing. Or, are you able to demonstrate in some real way that an unborn is not alive? Your view is what has no relavence. You may as well say the earth is flat and it rests on the back of a turtle as to say that a life has been terminated but nothing was killed. If you hold a postion, you should be able to justify it in some manner.

If my view is irrelevant then why do I need to explain and justify it to you?

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Pooeypants If my view is irrelevant then why do I need to explain and justify it to you?

I don't. Just pointing out the terrible flaw in your thinking to those who might not have noticed. You can say and think whatever you like, but when you can't reasonably defend your position, then you are exposed as nothing but an ideologue who, in all likelyhood, has nothing to contribute to the conversation. Dolores once accused me of following a dogma, if she wants to see dogma, the idea that a life can be terminated without killing should crystalize the concept of dogma to her.

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: Pale RIder I don't. Just pointing out the terrible flaw in your thinking to those who might not have noticed. You can say and think whatever you like, but when you can't reasonably defend your position, then you are exposed as nothing but an ideologue who, in all likelyhood, has nothing to contribute to the conversation. Dolores once accused me of following a dogma, if she wants to see dogma, the idea that a life can be terminated without killing should crystalize the concept of dogma to her.

Drawing the line on what is and isn't alive is always hard. Sure, when we terminate a developing embryo, it is killing cells, no doubt about it. But I don't regard that as killing a human being. If the law did then why would allow abortions to happen? Are you trying to tell me that the people in the past who passed those laws were without morals?

I'm curious though, if life was so precious to you, why do I never see you in the politics section opposing to war and condemning civilian casualties caused by the conflicts?

[Runa216]

I like these types of thread.....I cannot compete. I think we're all in over our head when we get into this stuff.

Personally, I think that pregancy is a delicate issue, and in modern society, we should be limiting the reproduction rate, we are growing too fast. that's why we use condoms, to stop STD's and unwanted pregnancies. in todays modern society, some people are financially and physicaly unable to raise or care for a child. so in the case of an unwanted pregnancy, the best way to get rid of the hassle is to terminate it.

of course, this raises many issues, is a zygote a human? is a fetus? personally, I think that until the third trimster, a baby is a part of the mother, a choice that should be up to her to keep or get rid of.

Though I don't disagree with those who think that life begins at conception, but to quote Carlin "do we have a funeral for a miscarriage?" there are a lot of factors and possibilities that we can consider, and the pnly real thing that determines right and wrong is deciding when the decicive time is that life begins.

It's hard, but I'll try to keep up.

Runa

[Starboy]

Quote by: Runa216 I like these types of thread.....I cannot compete. I think we're all in over our head when we get into this stuff.

I disagree. Some claims are stupider than others. The claim that a single human cell is a human being is one of the more stupid claims.

Starboy

[Runa216]

my biggest argument is that I don't see why people feel the need to be punished for an enjoyable act. people have sex, people have sex with condoms to stop pregnancy. if it breaks, then you just have to take another step to stop an unwanted pregnancy. There's no reason to go through like 2 years of suffering because of one little mistake. it's not like you didn't try.

I say enjoy life, if you are unable to care for a baby, then don't have one, it's your choice.

Runa

[Runa216]

there's an eraser on a pencil for a reason.

Runa

[Starboy]

Quote by: Runa216 there's an eraser on a pencil for a reason. Runa

And if a person has an ethical problem with erasers then they don't have to use them. It is when those that have an ethical problem with erasers then want laws passed to remove all erasers from all pencils is when I have a problem with the no eraser heads. If they don't like erasers then do not use them, but it is none of their dang business if others want to use them. Many of the Amish have a problem with the way the rest of America has decided to live. Their solution is to live life as they see fit. They are not pushing for laws to stop electric power generation, telephones or heavy machinery. If only the religious idiots would realize that laws do not make people good. They need to just shut up about what they think of others and put their own lives in order. The fact that they are trying to impose their morality by rule of law only indicates how powerless their own religious institutions are at actually making their adherents behave as they think they should. The only thing they have left is to try to get the government to enforce their morality.

Starboy

[Runa216]

Though a silly post, I agree completely. All Hail The Erasers!!!!!

Runa

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Starboy I disagree. Some claims are stupider than others. The claim that a single human cell is a human being is one of the more stupid claims. Starboy

The newly formed human is a single cell for a few hours. To attempt to base your pro abortion argument on a stage of human development that lasts a couple of hours strikes me as impotent in a very sad sort of way.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Pooeypants Drawing the line on what is and isn't alive is always hard. Sure, when we terminate a developing embryo, it is killing cells, no doubt about it. But I don't regard that as killing a human being. If the law did then why would allow abortions to happen? Are you trying to tell me that the people in the past who passed those laws were without morals? I'm curious though, if life was so precious to you, why do I never see you in the politics section opposing to war and condemning civilian casualties caused by the conflicts?

Nah. In this case, it is easy. All you have to do is open a medical textbook dealing with human development. Science is quite clear on what is and isn't alive, and when a human's life begins.

Did the people who legalized abortion lack morals? Did the people who legalized slavery lack morals?

I argue this issue because it is the larger issue. The numbers being killed in the war pale in comparison to the numbers who are being killed by their own mothers. 1.3 million per year is a far larger problem. And fewer are dying as a result of the war than would have died had saddam remained in power, so the problem is lessening already. You would prefer to go back to saddam being in charge and see the death toll rise?

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Runa216 there's an eraser on a pencil for a reason. Runa

Interesting. That you can equate a gramatical mistake on a piece of paper with the termination of a human life. Sounds like the sort of comparison a true sociopath would make. Do you really believe that comparison is valid, or are you trying to use poor humor in an attempt to rationalize your position?

If you really believe that a human life is of no more consequence that a spelling error on a piece of paper, then would you also be in favor of eliminating all laws that relate to murder, manslaughter, and other forms of physical violence?

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Runa216 my biggest argument is that I don't see why people feel the need to be punished for an enjoyable act. people have sex, people have sex with condoms to stop pregnancy. if it breaks, then you just have to take another step to stop an unwanted pregnancy. There's no reason to go through like 2 years of suffering because of one little mistake. it's not like you didn't try. I say enjoy life, if you are unable to care for a baby, then don't have one, it's your choice. Runa

The truth of the matter is that most women who have abortions had unprotected sex. What good is it to paint an inaccurate picture here? What good is it to make a point if the point is a lie?

And do you see children as punishment? If you do, then don't engage in behavior that could result in one. Why do you think that sex feels good in the first place? It is natures way of making sure that sex happens so that the species propogates. We are the only animals on the planet who are able to understand our sexual drives and you make the argument that those who have no more control than any other animal should just be able to kill another human because it is inconvenient.

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: Pale RIder Nah. In this case, it is easy. All you have to do is open a medical textbook dealing with human development. Science is quite clear on what is and isn't alive, and when a human's life begins.

What is alive and what is dead is quite hard to define. As a microbiologist and biochemist, I find it hard to define.
A cell is alive or dead, but when is a human being come alive and become dead? Is there really an inherent straight dividing line?

Quote by: Pale RIder Did the people who legalized abortion lack morals? Did the people who legalized slavery lack morals?

You haven't answered my question. Slavery was stamped out long ago for purpose of individual freedom.
We have been living for many decades now and the abortion is still accepted by the majority of society, if it weren't, it wouldn't still be legal. Does that mean the majority of us are supporter of human killing?

Quote by: Pale RIder I argue this issue because it is the larger issue. The numbers being killed in the war pale in comparison to the numbers who are being killed by their own mothers. 1.3 million per year is a far larger problem. And fewer are dying as a result of the war than would have died had saddam remained in power, so the problem is lessening already. You would prefer to go back to saddam being in charge and see the death toll rise?

If you're arguing from the humanitarian perspective, then it can be subject to alot of debate.

If you're arguing with regard to numbers, millions of children in the poverty zone are dying just because they don't have a supply of fresh water. Have you been campaigning vehemently for them as well?

[Starboy]

Quote by: Pale RIder The newly formed human is a single cell for a few hours. To attempt to base your pro abortion argument on a stage of human development that lasts a couple of hours strikes me as impotent in a very sad sort of way.

What bullshit are you spewing now? Not until the advent of the antiabortionist was the idea that a single human cell was a human being considered much at all. And for all the bullshit they continue to spew they still lack the conviction of their own beliefs. They do not think it necessary for a death certificate to be issued if that single cell dies of natural causes nor do they think it necessary for an investigation if the fetus was claimed to have been aborted naturally. Such people are really full of shit because they have not thought through the concequences of their conviction.

Starboy

[Pooeypants]

I must ask Mr Starboy, that you try to refrain from using coarse slang. Your points are well noted for but the attitude is unnecessary.

[miena]

I must agree with Starboy, and I don't think his language or attitude are the issue at all. He didn't really insult anybody personally. I really love debating about this topic, but it just feels like everything that can be said has been said. My problem is that pro-life views is that it takes away the very reason for being alive, the freedom to make your own choices and being control of your own life and body.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Pooeypants I must ask Mr Starboy

I thought some profanity was allowed, so I don't think what he said was out of bounds, was it? Pooeypants, are you a moderator? If so, how would we know that?