Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[Dirty Name]

Thats the problem..... you take it simply, and stop when it suits YOUR subjective needs. You twist the meaning to make it seem as though a government of the people, BY the people, FOR the people, can use force against its own, for ideals only a portion of the people hold.

Force? The only person using force is the doctor who dismembers the child and sucks it out with a vacuum cleaner.

Quote by: Dr. George Tiller, Late Term Abortion Specialist, from his own web site Abortion Methods: Dilatation and Evacuation (D&E) or Labor Induction Dilatation and Evacuation (D&E) * Sponge-like tapered pieces of absorbent material are placed into the cervix. This material becomes moist and slowly opens the cervix. * Sponge-like material will remain in place for several hours or overnight. * A second or third application of the material may be necessary. * Intravenous medications may be given to ease pain and prevent infection. * After a local or general anesthetic is given, the fetus and placenta are removed from the uterus with medical instruments such as forceps and suction curettage. Occasionally for removal, it will be necessary to dismember the fetus. Women's Health Care Services, P.A. - Late Abortion Care

What was that about "force" again?

You're just not going to win this argument by claiming pro-lifers apply "force" inappropriately.

Welcome to the reality and horror of the abortion industry.

[ZNFYRH]

Captain Chaos,

Taking organs for transplant still requires euthanasia first.

Just because the brain shows evidence of thought and such, why does the brain need to be function before something is considered "human", even though it matches "human" in every sense of the word?

[pikatore]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Just because the brain shows evidence of thought and such, why does the brain need to be function before something is considered "human", even though it matches "human" in every sense of the word?

Well, its not exactly a human with rights if it has a dead brain. That would make it a DEAD human. Do dead humans have the right to food and life? It's a question that demonstrates how idiotic it would be to try and apply rights to things that don't deserve them.

[ZNFYRH]

pikatore,

Okay, so we've established that a dead brain gets no rights.

But a fetus does not have a dead brain. It has a developing brain.

In fact, as long as the fetus is growing, the brain is quite alive.

So we're back to my original question.

[pikatore]

Quote by: ZNFYRH In fact, as long as the fetus is growing, the brain is quite alive.

As alive as a colony of bacteria growing on an agar plate. Alive as a seperate entity, no. And that's what we care about.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Captain Chaos, Taking organs for transplant still requires euthanasia first. Just because the brain shows evidence of thought and such, why does the brain need to be function before something is considered "human", even though it matches "human" in every sense of the word?

It is not a question of whether it is considered human. I mean, for this thread, that is the question. I agree that a human's life begins at conception.

The question is, do we apply rights to a human without a personality. In our society, we do not. The law allows killing the brain dead for organs, and the law allows abortion.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: ZNFYRH pikatore, Okay, so we've established that a dead brain gets no rights. But a fetus does not have a dead brain. It has a developing brain. In fact, as long as the fetus is growing, the brain is quite alive. So we're back to my original question.

Immediately after conception, it has no brain, and thus no personality. Early abortion might block the formation of a personality, but it does not destroy an existing personality.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Dirty Name Because they are human beings.

Pathetic evasion.

You are basically saying that all human beings should be given rights. I am asking you why that is the case?

I know you will have nothing but circular or evasive answers for this. I know this because I have been down this road countless times.

[5010]

Quote by: pikatore Well, its not exactly a human with rights if it has a dead brain. That would make it a DEAD human. Do dead humans have the right to food and life? It's a question that demonstrates how idiotic it would be to try and apply rights to things that don't deserve them.

Check out the wiki on brain death:
Brain death is the complete and irreversible cessation of brain activity. Absence of apparent brain function is not enough. Evidence of irreversibility is also required.
...
Note that brain electrical activity can stop completely, or apparently completely (a "flat EEG") for some time in deep anaesthesia or during cardiac arrest before being restored.

If you leave a healthy embryo in a healthy pregnancy alone, the 'brain death' is only temporary.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: 5010 Check out the wiki on brain death: Brain death is the complete and irreversible cessation of brain activity. Absence of apparent brain function is not enough. Evidence of irreversibility is also required. ... Note that brain electrical activity can stop completely, or apparently completely (a "flat EEG") for some time in deep anaesthesia or during cardiac arrest before being restored. If you leave a healthy embryo in a healthy pregnancy alone, the 'brain death' is only temporary.

The point is whether or not a personality is present. With a coma, the personality is present, but on hold. With a new embryo, the personality does not exist.

[5010]

Quote by: Captain Chaos The point is whether or not a personality is present. With a coma, the personality is present, but on hold. With a new embryo, the personality does not exist.

So you disagree that it is brain activity that makes the human organism a person? If so, what do you think minimally qualifies a living human organism to be a person?

[ZNFYRH]

Captain Chaos,

Incorrect.

The personality does exist, but it's "on hold" until the brain develops further.

I'm not talking about a soul or anything metaphysical in any way.

There are behavioral characteristics that are genetic. That means that they are present in every sperm and every egg. That also means that they are present in the fertilized egg, and present in the fetus before the brain develops.

A developing brain is not the same as a dead brain. When I refer to a coma patient, I'm not talking about a dead brain. I'm talking about the fact that the person has the potential and that potential is being flushed away.

5010 is dead-on when he says that a fetus is not "brain dead" because that terminology refers to an irreversible condition.

[ZNFYRH]

5010,

Good catch on that one.

There is a difference between a lack of brain activity and brain death.

The brain of a fetus is very much alive, just inactive until it develops further.

[pikatore]

Quote by: ZNFYRH The personality does exist, but it's "on hold" until the brain develops further.

Wrong, the personality ITSELF is what's being built, what's being constructed. Nothing is on hold.

[ZNFYRH]

pikatore,

Incorrect. The brain is simply the container. The personality is in the DNA.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: 5010 So you disagree that it is brain activity that makes the human organism a person? If so, what do you think minimally qualifies a living human organism to be a person?

Hmm....

I am not actually expressing my own point of view here, but trying to clarify the point of view of what I believe prochoicers feel.

My own point of view is the the rightness or wrongness of abortion rights is unprovable. If I were king, abortion would be legal in the first trimester, but there is a lot of guesswork supporting that position.

But getting back on topic...

It is not brain activity, per se. After all, if you were put into cryogenic stasis, it would still be considered murder if someone chopped your head off, even though you would have no brain activity. Instead, it is the presence of a personality. With brain activity above a certain level, the personality is present and active. With a person in cryogenic storage, the personality would be present but inactive. With an 8-cell embryo, the personality is not present.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Z The personality does exist, but it's "on hold" until the brain develops further.

No.

How can you say that an 8-cell embryo has a personality? If a personality is a certain pattern in the brain, and the embryo has no brain, then it has no personality.

I'm talking about the fact that the person has the potential and that potential is being flushed away.

Prochoicers are not sufficiently bothered by the destruction of that potential, that they would want to outlaw abortion.


And look... Your personality might be affected by your genes, but your personality is located inside your brain, not your genes. Using a computer analogy, personality is the software, brain is the hardware.

[Osborn F Enready]

Dirty Name said: Force? The only person using force is the doctor who dismembers the child and sucks it out with a vacuum cleaner.

No.

That is a choice of mutual conscent between TWO LEGAL ENTITIES, who are also LEGALLY RECOGNIZED INDIVIDUALS, CITIZENS and have FULL LEGAL RIGHTS TO PRIVACY.

It would take FORCE to penetrate that privacy, which is what LAW IS, FORCE, or the threat of its application for NON-CONFORMITY.

The doctor and the mother both have:
Natural Rights
Citizens LEGAL Rights
Are named, LEGAL entities, or INDIVIDUALS with full rights
OWN their own bodies

The fetus has NONE of the above, until born.

The use of force against the fetus is a NON-ISSUE until it is a born, individual, LEGAL entitiy with partial rights.

It would take the FORCE of law to penetrate a contract of voluntary conscent between the mother, and the doctor, to even DETERMINE if acts were taking place against the law, if it were passed. It would be realisticly UNENFORCEABLE, therefore, illogical and COUNTER productive to a free or self governed society.

Why don't you just admit your probelm is with self-governed society, and you seek a religious dictatorship?

Dirty Name said: What was that about "force" again? You're just not going to win this argument by claiming pro-lifers apply "force" inappropriately. Welcome to the reality and horror of the abortion industry.

Most people are somewhat familliar with abortion procedures..... your point?

Oh, thats right, you were probing for emotional response that reduces the logic of nature and reality to a "side effect" right?

Spare me.

Do you have any REAL debate to offer?

[ZNFYRH]

CC,

So what's the line you're drawing, then?

You really haven't answered that question.

Brainwaves? Development of a brain?

I think it's pointless to try to define. Life beings at conception. If we're talking about a human being, then that human, and therefore it's rights, begin at the same time.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: ZNFYRH CC, So what's the line you're drawing, then? You really haven't answered that question. Brainwaves? Development of a brain? I think it's pointless to try to define. Life beings at conception. If we're talking about a human being, then that human, and therefore it's rights, begin at the same time.

The line is the presence of a personality.

from your statement:
A) Life beings at conception
B) it's rights, begin at the same time

B does not necessarily follow A, it would depend upon your value system.