Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[pikatore]

Quote by: gw120 I don't actually think leeches have brains, not sure though.

They do have a central nervous system, and a brain. The technical name for thier brains are ganglionic masses, since there isn't a distinct cerebellum or brain stem - its an incredibly simplified version of our brains. Yet, it functions, and provides the leech with the basic instinctual drives that every other animal has - a human embryo, or ANY embryo of ANY species, for that matter, lacks not only those drives, but a functioning brain to begin with.

[gw120]

That's fascinating.

[fushigi]

Quote by: Yasa A question for you is, what makes YOU alive? What are you without a consciousness or memories?

What makes me alive? Cellular respiration. Until that stops, I'll be alive.

I'd like to think that even when I lose consciousness - and when I cannot form memories - I'm still human. Don't you agree? For example, if you lapsed into a coma right now, while reading this message, I'm sure you wouldn't be happy if someone came along and vacuumed your brains out. You'd probably want people to treat you with the respect and dignity deserving of a human being.

Just my guess!

[Yasa]

Quote by: fushigi What makes me alive? Cellular respiration. Until that stops, I'll be alive. I'd like to think that even when I lose consciousness - and when I cannot form memories - I'm still human. Don't you agree? For example, if you lapsed into a coma right now, while reading this message, I'm sure you wouldn't be happy if someone came along and vacuumed your brains out. You'd probably want people to treat you with the respect and dignity deserving of a human being. Just my guess!

While I agree that I would still be human on a scientific level (as I mentioned before) to me, consciousness and especially memories are what life is all about. I mean, if we didn't have them what's really the difference, besides on a microbiologicalscientific (it's a word now) level? If I was not conscious or forming memories, I would be in no position to have an opinion if I deserved the same respect a human with those qualities should have. Thinking about it in third person, I would argue that yes I was indeed a human and alive. But if I was in the state I wouldn't know I even existed, so I don't really see a difference. Without memories we are just "drones" with no true relevance or meaning--only to a second person's view and scientific definition would I be alive.

I guess it kinda goes along with my religious beliefs. I'm an atheist and believe that when we die, it's the end. A dreamless black, memoryless, consciousless sleep. The same as trying to remember your existence and life before being born.

[fushigi]

Quote by: Yasa If I was not conscious or forming memories, I would be in no position to have an opinion if I deserved the same respect a human with those qualities should have. Thinking about it in third person, I would argue that yes I was indeed a human and alive. But if I was in the state I wouldn't know I even existed, so I don't really see a difference.

The difference is that your lack of consciousness is only a temporary thing. Can you really tell me that if your mother was in a coma and I tried to suck her brains out, you wouldn't object?

[Yasa]

Quote by: fushigi The difference is that your lack of consciousness is only a temporary thing. Can you really tell me that if your mother was in a coma and I tried to suck her brains out, you wouldn't object?

First of all, why would you suck her brains out!!! haha

Yes, I would object because she was alive and it's only temporary and I love her. However, when it comes to abortion, it's their choice. If they aren't ready emotionally of finacially, etc for a child they would only be destroying the potential for a life, imo. The key difference is that they would have to want an abortion. I do not want my mother to die. My mother (assuming zero consciousness or memories) or to a fetus (assuming the same) they couldn't care/know if they were dead or not (according to my beliefs of life/death). It's the outside persepectives that are being the judges in these situations, and thus the difference between your analogy with my mother, and abortion.

[fushigi]

Quote by: Yasa First of all, why would you suck her brains out!!! haha

Anything to prove a point. Sorry Yasa's mom. Stakes is high.

Quote by: Yasa Yes, I would object because she was alive and it's only temporary and I love her.

Lack of consciousness in fetuses is also temporary!

Quote by: Yasa However, when it comes to abortion, it's their choice. If they aren't ready emotionally of finacially, etc for a child they would only be destroying the potential for a life, imo. The key difference is that they would have to want an abortion.

What if I wanted to suck my mom's brains out while she was in a coma?* Should I be allowed to?

*Again, anything to prove a point. Sorry, Mom.

[Yasa]

Quote by: fushigi Anything to prove a point. Sorry Yasa's mom. Stakes is high.

Lol I'm glad we can still have fun :).

Quote by: fushigi Lack of consciousness in fetuses is also temporary!What if I wanted to suck my mom's brains out while she was in a coma?* Should I be allowed to?

I don't even know how you got me into this position! I thought I had some good points, yet they contradict the fact that I don't think you should be allowed to. I guess my response is because you sucking out my mother's brains would infringe on my rights. My mother had been previously alive, and she has affected many people around her, and many people love her. To suck her brains out would matter greatly to many other people. However, abortion could be considered a personal choice as the destruction of that potential life wouldn't affect society nearly as much. I'll also refer to sevendogs' comment that adults>fetuses to counter any "what about "drifters" in comas?" situations you might produce.

I'm gonna have to think more about this one, hopefully someone can back me up?

[Yasa]

I guess I could use your logic to counter aswell by saying my mother wouldn't want her brains sucked out, but that a fetus (having no prior existence) could not answer such a question.

[syc-sadist]

oh by the way i believe life is created at conception......but im still pro-choice not anti-choice.

guess its 'right to choose thing' as well as sexism thing

a women can re-produce again if it don't work the frst time....make it by law that she has to have a child .....she would be very resentfull and i know i'd feel like it was a bunch of sexism, im not baby making machiene and i won't go through labour to put a baby up for adoption.


religious men.....argh! when you can conceiev talk to me^^
pro-choice yay......u can CHOOSE what you believe to be moral or not!!!!! liek what religion you believe...if any!!! wow its awesome!!!!!!



on the other side i wouldn't eat the baby lol.....though i did find that comment somewhat ammusing.


oh and btw no decision made on my pregnancy yet :)

[fushigi]

Quote by: Yasa I guess I could use your logic to counter aswell by saying my mother wouldn't want her brains sucked out, but that a fetus (having no prior existence) could not answer such a question.

Your mother can't answer the question either, until she's out of the coma. Essentially, she's temporarily restrained from making her wishes known because we don't know how to communicate with her.

Same as with a fetus.

[Praxius]

Quote by: fushigi The difference is that your lack of consciousness is only a temporary thing. Can you really tell me that if your mother was in a coma and I tried to suck her brains out, you wouldn't object?

So if there is no consciousness, or ever was at the time, then they're not really alive are they? There nothing there to object.

With someone in a coma? there is a history at least..... there is something to fight for.

[fushigi]

Quote by: Praxius So if there is no consciousness, or ever was at the time, then they're not really alive are they? There nothing there to object.

Nothing that we can perceive, anyway.

Just because we can't perceive it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Do you see gamma rays?

[Dirty Name]

All this talk of consciousness and memories is moot because none of you can draw a line indicating when they become valid.

Trying to point to the moment of birth is absurd. When you try to define that moment legally, you merely raise more questions than you answered.

Go ahead, pro-aborts, share with us what moment a zygote/fetus/newborn/infant/toddler's consciousness becomes valid to you.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Dirty Name All this talk of consciousness and memories is moot because none of you can draw a line indicating when they become valid. Trying to point to the moment of birth is absurd. When you try to define that moment legally, you merely raise more questions than you answered. Go ahead, pro-aborts, share with us what moment a zygote/fetus/newborn/infant/toddler's consciousness becomes valid to you.

It is not very difficult to work around the problem of not having a precise defining point.

You can simply look at a time period where there is clearly no capacity for thought, and pick that time period as the latest moment for a legal abortion.

In short, you can allow plenty of room for error.




However, I think many abortion opponents are not so concerned about thought. The thoughts of even a newborn are not at all complex. They have feelings, but then, so do pigs. Adult pigs have much more complex thoughts than newborns.



Personally, I believe we have an overwhelming instinct to protect the young of our species. I believe this instinct is what underlies the opposition to abortion.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Dirty Name All this talk of consciousness and memories is moot because none of you can draw a line indicating when they become valid.

A brainwave indicates the presence of a consciousness. That is the line.

[Dirty Name]

Professor J. Lejeune, Paris, discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down's Syndrome: "Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception."

Professor W. Bowes, University of Colorado: Beginning of human life? -- "at conception."

Professor H. Gordon, Mayo Clinic: "It is an established fact that human life begins at conception."

Professor M. Matthews-Roth, Harvard University: "It is scientifically correct to say that individual human life begins at conception."

Anyone have evidence to the contrary?

I thought not. Thus, this debate is now officially about how you people justify killing that human life - and not about whether or not it actually is one.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Dirty Name Anyone have evidence to the contrary?

You call that evidence?!

I can give you countless names of professors that state otherwise. That isn't evidence.

[Dirty Name]

A brainwave indicates the presence of a consciousness. That is the line.

And when technology enables us to detect an ever fainter brainwave, does the line move?

Further, you are suggesting that human beings don't exist until a doctor, using brainwave scanning equipment can confirm it to be so.

How absurd.

[Dirty Name]

You call that evidence?! I can give you countless names of professors that state otherwise. That isn't evidence.

Do it then. Include quotes.