Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[fushigi]

Quote by: pikatore They are alive on a purely biological level, on a micro level, but as actul human beings, well, they don't exist yet. They are precursors.

What about other fetal animals? When do they begin existence?

[Praxius]

Quote by: pikatore They are alive on a purely biological level, on a micro level, but as actul human beings, well, they don't exist yet. They are precursors.

If you want to think about it spiritually, the fetus is a growing shell of a human waiting for a soul when born, aka first breath.

[Yasa]

Quote by: fushigi Not really a straw man. Yasa claimed fetuses aren't alive.

According to my definition of human life.

The thread title asks us our opinion of when human life begins and I'm voicing my opinion based on my experience and thoughts.

As for fetuses/plants/cells they are only alive in the scientific defintion of life (have cells, need energy, reproduce, have waste, etc). However, they are not alive when it comes to being human. A question for you is, what makes YOU alive? What are you without a consciousness or memories?

[5010]

Well I could just as easily say that 'to err is human' and choose to define 'human' as 'one who errs'. Our embryo, on the other hand, is very much a perfectionist. On the way to developing into a fetus, it doesn't ever goof up and become a pig or elephant fetus. Even if it develops into a monster, it is because of a design flaw not a mistake in following the design. Or it could be a nutrition problem which is outside their realm of control. So I could conclude that embryos do not err, and therefore they are not human in the sense of that definition.

But the above does not remove their humanity by all definitions of 'human', just that particular one. If I choose to substitute 'This ambryo does not err' to 'This embryo is not human', the reader probably thinks I'm talking about a different species of embryo. The result is misleading or worse, deceptive, if I am using this purposely to drive an agenda. Kinda like 'bait and switch'. But if I say 'This embryo is not human in the sense that to be human is to err' then the reader can decypher it back to the original 'This embryo does not err' and then they yawn and say 'so what'.

Another way of looking at it: People will sometimes say things like "life begins when you are 60", and I'm not going to argue with them. Whatever context of 'life' they are experiencing might not exist for younger folks, but they don't tend to use this to prove that anyone under 60 is not alive generally.

Conception with human gametes results in a biologically alive human organism. The development of a mind in a biologically alive human results in a psychologically alive human oragnism. The development of puberty plus sex drive in the biologically and psychologically alive human organism results in a sexually alive human organism. Reproduction is a vital function for the species, and let's say I choose to define a species only to include members that both structurally resemble it and are able and willing to continue it, therefore let's conclude that we aren't really human until we can and want to have sex, therefore a healthy living embryo, made of healthy living human cells, is not really human, nor is a human fetus, human newborn, or human child.

[pikatore]

Quote by: 5010 Conception with human gametes results in a biologically alive human organism. The development of a mind in a biologically alive human results in a psychologically alive human oragnism. The development of puberty plus sex drive in the biologically and psychologically alive human organism results in a sexually alive human organism. Reproduction is a vital function for the species, and let's say I choose to define a species only to include members that both structurally resemble it and are able and willing to continue it, therefore let's conclude that we aren't really human until we can and want to have sex, therefore a healthy living embryo, made of healthy living human cells, is not really human, nor is a human fetus, human newborn, or human child.

Absolutely ridiculous.

You still don't understand the significance that sets us out of the womb from us inside the womb, and that significance is a CONSCIOUS, SENTIENT, ACTIVE, BRAIN. That is what gives the hunks of meat that we are meaning, direction, it's what we use to think, feel, and learn with. Until late conception, the foetus is completely and utterly capable of ANY of that, seeing that it lacks an actual functioning BRAIN to begin with. Until that brain switches on, and assumes control of the body it's in, it is a lump of biomass, nothing less, nothing more.

If we based rights and laws on POTENTIAL, we'd have any tiny aspects of our lives policed and controled.

How many different ways must I drive this point home? Stop toying with how I used the word alive, becuase you DID understand what i meant, and you KNOW that it was used in a valid manner. Address my point, and the actual morality of it, instead of screwing around with semantics.

[5010]

Once that brain switches on, and assumes control of the body it's in, it is still a lump of biomass, nothing less, nothing more.

[pikatore]

Quote by: 5010 Once that brain switches on, and assumes control of the body it's in, it is still a lump of biomass, nothing less, nothing more.

Wrong. It is a human being, with rights. Its not a hard distinction to make.

[5010]

That lump of biomass had the same rights the moment before the brain switched on as the moment after.

[pikatore]

Quote by: 5010 That lump of biomass had the same rights the moment before the brain switched on as the moment after.

Wrong again. Until it is becomes an actual sentient human being, it does not deserve to be regarded as one.

[brien]

A fetus is not alive because it does not have the brain activity necessary for consciousness or memories--which are what I define "true" life to be.

Now without everyone getting all hyped up here, can someone please tell me definitively where and when the shift occurs from fetus to baby? Is it in the uterous? Or is it when the fetus is born into a baby? If a female delivers a baby, when did it become a baby? In the uterous or at birth? Abortions are legal up until when, the third trimester? So what is the maximun age to terminate a fetus before it is illegal to kill that fetus during a partial birth abortion? Can a female have a partial birth abortion at 8 months. I have known of "premiees" to be able to live outside the uterous at 5 months. Does that mean they are a fetus or a baby?

All my idiot questions.....let's face the music and dance...D Bowie, New Killer Star

[pikatore]

Quote by: brien Now without everyone getting all hyped up here, can someone please tell me definitively where and when the shift occurs from fetus to baby? Is it in the uterous? Or is it when the fetus is born into a baby? If a female delivers a baby, when did it become a baby? In the uterous or at birth? Abortions are legal up until when, the third trimester? So what is the maximun age to terminate a fetus before it is illegal to kill that fetus during a partial birth abortion? Can a female have a partial birth abortion at 8 months. I have known of "premiees" to be able to live outside the uterous at 5 months. Does that mean they are a fetus or a baby? All my idiot questions.....let's face the music and dance...D Bowie, New Killer Star

At approximately 18 weeks, the cortex is developed, and a brainwave is present. The foetus at this point becomes a baby. Of course, an EEG to check for the presence of a working brain would be a good idea to be sure. At that point, I regard the foetus as a human being, and my opinion of abortion after that point is still to be made. But beforehand, an abortion is in no way, shape or form cruel or inhumane.

[brien]

At approximately 18 weeks, the cortex is developed, and a brainwave is present

I accept this to be a critical consideration in the matter. So is this the magic number when the fetus transforms into a "baby"?

[5010]

Quote by: pikatore Until it is becomes an actual sentient human being, it does not deserve to be regarded as one.

Agreed. Likewise, one should not be regarded as a doctor until one becomes an actual doctor. If I choose to accept mom's advice on a tummy ache, it can not be because I regard her as a doctor (she isn't) but because I regard her as someone who has experienced a tummy ache or two. If I choose to protect the life of a mentally handicapped member of the human species, then it can not be because I regard them as geniuses. Likewise if I choose to protect the life of a zygote, it can not be because I regard them as sentient. They aren't.

[sevendogs]

The Earth is overpopulated and it will be so even more pretty soon. There will be not enough rights for everyone. Adults will have priority over fetuses. This is for sure.

[pikatore]

Quote by: 5010 Likewise if I choose to protect the life of a zygote, it can not be because I regard them as sentient. They aren't.

...... I'm sorry, I don't see your point there. Sentience is a major criteria when consdiering what is and isnt inhumane to do something to it.

[5010]

Quote by: pikatore ...... I'm sorry, I don't see your point there. Sentience is a major criteria when consdiering what is and isnt inhumane to do something to it.

Because humane methodology avoids suffering, and suffering requires sentience. However, the right to live has nothing to do with suffering.

[pikatore]

Quote by: 5010 Because humane methodology avoids suffering, and suffering requires sentience. However, the right to live has nothing to do with suffering.

...?!

Where did I mention suffering?

[gw120]

A fetus is a parasite, it's like swiping a leech off your body.

[pikatore]

Quote by: gw120 A fetus is a parasite, it's like swiping a leech off your body.

That's giving the foetus too much credit - even leeches have a brain to think with.

[gw120]

I don't actually think leeches have brains, not sure though.