Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[shawmutt]

There simply is no argument. People who are for abortion on demand either have never really thought about it or they are evil.

Well that settles it then. End of debate.

And when I say "never really thought about it," I mean it. Don't just give me your pie-in-the-sky philosophical opinion. Learn about what is happening at abortion clinics, the methods used to end the life of the child. Then tell me that it's morally OK to do that to a child.

I am very well aware of what happens at abortion clinics, but thanks for the patronizing remarks--they're sure to earn you points here. Learn what happens when legal abortion is not an option, then tell me it's morally OK to do that to a mother.

[syc-sadist]

one thing i don't like is that the tittle 'pro-life' makes the position seem the more 'morally correct one' when it really isn't that definite of a thing. when calling them anti-choice....seems somewhat negative...but not inaccurate.



do agree with Shawmutt :)


this whole argument depends so much on individual situations.
which to me makes this seem like the appropriate time to re-instate my position that its a choice of the people who are directly involved....and that means that the mother and the father (who can both actually have a SAY as in speak)



one thing i don't agree with is people critising girls for falling pregnanut and wanting an abortion when still studying or still very young. and therefore having there life to deal with...people who say they were foolish enough. when those same people will admit that the age of experimentation and easy to manipulate can really affect supposed common sense. and all this time were the hell is the dayum male at he CAN and often does do a runner.

do we want to sacrifice a person here and now (who later on in life can produce another child) and led them to a poor life and poor life for the child.

do we concern ourselves with and linger over the importance of every birth happening...and then not care about the rest of that child's life or the life of her mother or father?

do we stop safe medical procedures in favour of natural abortions that the mother can and will perform if she is led to via starvation etc etc.

Do we abolish choice in the matter and leave many people resentfull because beliefs have been forced upon them?

Do we stop the safe medical practises in favour of bringing back the old 'back-alley abortions'?



to me it just seems the best way to deal with this is to keep the choice..

...if you think it's wrong if you don't like it....between you and your partner...don't do it don't abort.....but allow others to choose...if the choice no longer stands the conseqences are going to be far far far far worse

[Osborn F Enready]

People have the right to choose, regardless of societies crying.

[brien]

Quote by: Dirty Name What sickens us pro-lifers is that abortion IS forced upon someone - the unborn child. Sheesh. I guess I just don't see why this is so hard to grasp. All you have to do is look at what is happening in Wichita, Kansas, at Tiller's late-term abortion clinic to know that abortion is disgusting, and wrong. There simply is no argument. People who are for abortion on demand either have never really thought about it or they are evil. And when I say "never really thought about it," I mean it. Don't just give me your pie-in-the-sky philosophical opinion. Learn about what is happening at abortion clinics, the methods used to end the life of the child. Then tell me that it's morally OK to do that to a child.

What sickens us pro-lifers is that abortion IS forced upon someone - the unborn child.

So be sick because SCOTUS doesn't agree with you. That said, this is a matter between a mother and her "unborn" child. I, nor anyone else, has no right to force that mother to act in any prescribed manner. It is a choice between her, the father, and her creator that she may or may not have to answer for in her future.

People who are for abortion on demand either have never really thought about it or they are evil.

So say you. I have thought about abortion in depth and I am pro choice. In YOUR eyes I am evil. So be it. I am prepared to die with a clear conscience.

And when I say "never really thought about it," I mean it. Don't just give me your pie-in-the-sky philosophical opinion. Learn about what is happening at abortion clinics, the methods used to end the life of the child. Then tell me that it's morally OK to do that to a child.[/

You pompous and condescending attitude is only exceeded by your penchant to call people evil.

[Ender's Shadow]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Some thoughts on abortion.... *Individual choice allows all individuals to choose their own path, of free-will, without the use of force. *Laws that ban abortion, use force via government threat of guns, property/asset forfeiture, and taxation to inflict the will of ONE GROUP upon all others under that law. If this was truly religiously motivated, we should see a motivation towards choice, should we not? Is it not our choice to find "god" on our own? Aren't religious sheperds really sneaking unpure people into heaven by preventing them the chance to make a choice, which would reveal their true constitution? Is this a resurgence of witch burnings and crusades of war bidding angels to do the work of devils, in the name of divinity?

I don't believe your statements at all. For one, no 'religious sheppards' are trying to force their religion upon you; they are only trying to protect what they believe to be life. Also, there is more than the just religious party that is against abortion. The only reason that religious persons seem to be the majority of the anti-abortion body is because religion tends to cause people to look at things with a "greater view". On the opposing side, many that are unbelievers tend to see what seems best for them at this time and they do not wish to deal with problems that can be avoided (my apologies if that sounded offensive to anyone). To wrap this up, I would like to state that most women that make the choice of abortion do not simply make the choice and move on. Instead, many regret their choice and have to go through upsetting therapy and are left with emotional scars.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Ender's Shadow The only reason that religious persons seem to be the majority of the anti-abortion body is because religion tends to cause people to look at things with a "greater view".

You mean, do things like create pro-lifers, and discriminate against gays. Yeah, i get the picture.

Quote by: Ender's Shadow To wrap this up, I would like to state that most women that make the choice of abortion do not simply make the choice and move on. Instead, many regret their choice and have to go through upsetting therapy and are left with emotional scars.

As opposed to those who are faced, often grossly unprepared, with the burden of raising a child? Who do you think the pro-choicers are putting first? The thinking, feeling human thats already alive? Or the thinking, feeling human that doesn't even exist yet?

[Praxius]

Quote by: Ender's Shadow I don't believe your statements at all. For one, no 'religious sheppards' are trying to force their religion upon you; they are only trying to protect what they believe to be life.

So that explains why I got Mormons knocking at my door, people preaching their ways to me down the street, judging what I do with my life? Protection indeed.

Also, there is more than the just religious party that is against abortion. The only reason that religious persons seem to be the majority of the anti-abortion body is because religion tends to cause people to look at things with a "greater view".

Oh.... a greater view as opposed to what? My views are not as great as some religious persons? They're opinion is better then mine, because they feel God tells them so?

On the opposing side, many that are unbelievers tend to see what seems best for them at this time and they do not wish to deal with problems that can be avoided (my apologies if that sounded offensive to anyone).

I don't believe in God, but that doesn't mean I don't think down the road.... me thinking down the road is what made me come to the conclusion on this matter.

To wrap this up, I would like to state that most women that make the choice of abortion do not simply make the choice and move on. Instead, many regret their choice and have to go through upsetting therapy and are left with emotional scars.

And that is their decision to make and follow through..... it is not someone else's decision to make. Many men also go through these thoughts as well.... perhaps not as drastic as some females might, but it is not reserved to just women.

[namguy69]

Quote by: brien So be sick because SCOTUS doesn't agree with you. That said, this is a matter between a mother and her "unborn" child. I, nor anyone else, has no right to force that mother to act in any prescribed manner. It is a choice between her, the father, and her creator that she may or may not have to answer for in her future. So say you. I have thought about abortion in depth and I am pro choice. In YOUR eyes I am evil. So be it. I am prepared to die with a clear conscience. You pompous and condescending attitude is only exceeded by your penchant to call people evil.

Personally, I'd find it tough the remaining of my life if I were faced with that choice. Above ALL there's no excuse, absoultely none for any woman becoming pregnant if they don't want a child. PERIOD

[brien]

So that explains why I got Mormons knocking at my door

Just happened to me at noontime. The dog, held by my wife, was barking her objections and arching to bite them, while my wife told them "we were all set", twice, before they would leave.

[Praxius]

Quote by: namguy69 Personally, I'd find it tough the remaining of my life if I were faced with that choice. Above ALL there's no excuse, absoultely none for any woman becoming pregnant if they don't want a child. PERIOD

Periods end one sentace to begin another.

There are all kinds of reasons.... the world isn't a simple yes or no.

Rape is one big reason.

Health issues to the female, learned after the fact, is another.

Protection doesn't always work.

There's a few reasons to start, if you don't think those are valid, then you apparently can not relate to them.

[namguy69]

Quote by: Praxius Periods end one sentace to begin another. There are all kinds of reasons.... the world isn't a simple yes or no. Rape is one big reason. Health issues to the female, learned after the fact, is another. Protection doesn't always work. There's a few reasons to start, if you don't think those are valid, then you apparently can not relate to them.

I wasn't referring to rape cases and I'm certain you know that. When it comes to contraception there're must at least 25 different types. Way back I'd say the odds of contractive devices, pills, whatever, were a bit shaky but certainly not today. Rape is a crime and and wasn't a part of this post. Never going to do away with rape, been with us since day one. If a woman and her male partner ( politicaly correst ) partake in sexual activity then and they don't want children then do something about it.

Not being to be able to relate to something doesn' mean it doesn't mean the answer doesn't contain common sense. If women are scared of getting raped, carry a licensed pistol, knife, mace, take a selfdefense course...or if that's not your thing and your that scared of being attacked and raped...stay in the house, there's only so many answers, no it shouldn't have to that way at all but in the real world that's the way it is.

[lieexpsr]

I haven't read this entire thread so this question may have been asked before now. If life begins at conception, when does life begin for a cloned animal?

[syc-sadist]

Ender's Shadow finished by saying

"......To wrap this up, I would like to state that most women that make the choice of abortion do not simply make the choice and move on. Instead, many regret their choice and have to go through upsetting therapy and are left with emotional scars."

most...not all....key part....take away the choice based on the fact that they may be upset. that will just makes things worse.

you are upset when you choose to put your dog down. but in the situation it is the right thing. but just becaus eyour upset doesn't give reason to make it illegal.

[Dirty Name]

All these snide comments about how "awful" it must be if a woman has to carry a baby to term and then give it up for adoption (or *gasp* raise it herself), do little except to solidify my argument.

All I can do is point out how utterly ridiculous you people sound when you try to equate the "horror" of raising a child when one is unprepared or ill-equipped to do so with the very real horror of what is happening at these abortion clinics.

If you've never looked into what really happens at the clinics, you need to. We aren't talking about a 25 year old married woman and her husband who have decided after a few weeks to have a simple "procedure" done because they can't afford it right now.

While even that is disgusting, I'm talking about true evil, where young women are brought in to the clinic, "diagnosed" with whatever is necessary to justify killing their unborn child, then brought in to the room where the fetus is "terminated" in a way that would make ANYONE's skin crawl.

It's disgusting. I'll spare you having to look at or watch a real abortion procedure, because it's pretty disturbing. But I encourage folks to check out this web page from the notorious Dr. George Tiller's site:

George Tiller MD - Wichita, Kansas - Late Abortion Care

Some of you might even find it touching. I thought it was a joke at first, but sadly, it isn't.

Finally, I just want to say that many of the arguments put forth in the posts on this page could also be used to justify the mistreatment of slaves. The only difference is how we perceive an unborn child versus how we perceived black folks back in the 1800's...

One more thing - spare me the excuses - those who say, "I'm against abortion but I support a woman's right to choose."

Pull your socks up to your balls, be a man, and stand for something.

[Osborn F Enready]

DirtyName said: Pull your socks up to your balls, be a man, and stand for something.

I am, individual rights, the right to choose, and the right to be free from government interference in private contracts between one or two voluntary parties and their doctor who is acting on free-will.

[Dirty Name]

the right to be free from government interference in private contracts between one or two voluntary parties and their doctor who is acting on free-will.

It's just tragically too easy for you to ignore the third party in all this.

[Osborn F Enready]

Dirty Name said: It's just tragically too easy for you to ignore the third party in all this.

Its not about being easy, or hard, it's about being true to the ideal of individual choice, and individual rights.

Do you remember any of your time in the womb?
Do you remember delivery?
Do you remember life in the womb?

Specifically, do you remember pain in the womb?

That is NATURES defense mechanism for the INNOCENT child.

I am totally against the use of force except for defense, and I abhor violence unless it is a conscious choice by people of free-will. But abortion, and the choice to have one, is solely and ultimately the choice of the mother, who is supporting that growing life.

Nature provides a means for natural abortion, and man only made it safer and more humane.



I am sure some cynic might observe and say:

Perhaps this is my way of sticking it to the immoral majority who brought me the notion of a two party system monopoly, providing a choice in politics, whom encourage us to so easily dismiss all third parties?

While funny, aprapoh, and entirely possible, it would be wrong.

I would give them a Kudos for being observant and naturally skeptical though.

[Praxius]

Hell if I don't remember my wang getting sliced in half as a new born, I'm sure as hell not gonna care if I was aborted...... them's the breaks.

Not to generalize in such a blaitent manner that I know will get some snide remarks....... BUT...... fighting for the rights of an unborn fetus that can not express it's own desires (if they have any to begin with) is like trying to fight for the rights of a rock on the street. You don't know what the fetus wants. Does the fetus actually value it's own so-called life? I know we do, because we're alive, we have had time to learn the value of our lives, etc.

To me.... when it comes to the rights of anything alive... no matter if you considder a fetus alive or not, I feel it's a "First Come, First Serve" way of life. The mother/father were alive first, so they get to choose how their life goes.

AKA: Survival of the Fittest..... the parents can overpower the fetus and take it out if they deem so.

And another thing:

All these Pro-Life people should really get their priorities straight..... if you want to really fight for a life that is deserving, how about you fight for the millions of babies in China who are either aborted, thrown out, or cast out because of restrictions of how many children they are allowed, and what gender, etc.

[syc-sadist]

Quote by: Dirty Name All these snide comments about how "awful" it must be if a woman has to carry a baby to term and then give it up for adoption (or *gasp* raise it herself), do little except to solidify my argument. All I can do is point out how utterly ridiculous you people sound when you try to equate the "horror" of raising a child when one is unprepared or ill-equipped to do so with the very real horror of what is happening at these abortion clinics. If you've never looked into what really happens at the clinics, you need to. We aren't talking about a 25 year old married woman and her husband who have decided after a few weeks to have a simple "procedure" done because they can't afford it right now. While even that is disgusting, I'm talking about true evil, where young women are brought in to the clinic, "diagnosed" with whatever is necessary to justify killing their unborn child, then brought in to the room where the fetus is "terminated" in a way that would make ANYONE's skin crawl. It's disgusting. I'll spare you having to look at or watch a real abortion procedure, because it's pretty disturbing. But I encourage folks to check out this web page from the notorious Dr. George Tiller's site: George Tiller MD - Wichita, Kansas - Late Abortion Care Some of you might even find it touching. I thought it was a joke at first, but sadly, it isn't. Finally, I just want to say that many of the arguments put forth in the posts on this page could also be used to justify the mistreatment of slaves. The only difference is how we perceive an unborn child versus how we perceived black folks back in the 1800's... One more thing - spare me the excuses - those who say, "I'm against abortion but I support a woman's right to choose." Pull your socks up to your balls, be a man, and stand for something.

ARGH. *brands you a tad sexist* just imagine yourself in the situation...or you could imagine being an unborn child....but like it has been said ...you don't remember...

GO! helping those who are in this world atm...
GO! helping the kids in china ^^ :)


"One more thing - spare me the excuses - those who say, "I'm against abortion but I support a woman's right to choose."
"Pull your socks up to your balls, be a man, and stand for something"

^i have a friend who replied to this part, he said "wow, please put him into his place, somewhere around 19th century sounds right"

[sevendogs]

Philosophical and scientifically speaking, life line is never disrupted. Only life generates life. Spermatozoa and eggs are all life. Where it starts? At the conception, it only continues. When you ejaculate, you kill a lot of lives of unicellular beings - all potential embryos. If you would not ejaculate, they all die anyway. Women let to die their eggs after every estrus. Only rarely they get fertilized and embryonic development begins. However, this happens often enough and we, humans, are fastest growing population of one species on planet Earth. Even tsunami, aids and jet liner crashes or Iraq war do not make even a dent on steady population growth of humankind.