Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[jamesbdunn]

Quote by: Praxius And if God has already known everything, predetermined everything and solidifies the concept of destiny, ie: it's already known who will goto heaven or hell....... then why bother worshiping him? It's already determined if you will go or not.

Why would we expect to recieve some sort of gift, when we already have received the gift of life? When we die, why would we want to become a burden to God? The whole concept of heaven and hell stinks of men deceiving men to get something for nothing.

What more can we possibly want? God did not say that we would be given eternal life, a man did. So how selfish can we possibly be. God has done so much for us, why are we asking for more favors. Praying to God for selfish reasons, what is that?

I'm greatful to be alive, everything else is absolutely wonderful.

When I die, I neither desire to go to heaven or hell. God can do with me what it wants. Fertilizer is fine by me. I'm truely greatful to have lived.

[sevendogs]

It depends how we decide. I join those who believes life starts after birth. It is good for a practial reason, just in case, if abortion would be a right choice. This also helps slightly slow down growth of human ppulation.

[Praxius]

Quote by: jamesbdunn Why would we expect to recieve some sort of gift, when we already have received the gift of life? When we die, why would we want to become a burden to God? The whole concept of heaven and hell stinks of men deceiving men to get something for nothing.

IMO The gift of life? My parents gave me that, not God. You make it sound like he's doing everything and we shouldn't burden him..... what else does he have better to do? What has he done for us lately?

What more can we possibly want? God did not say that we would be given eternal life, a man did. So how selfish can we possibly be. God has done so much for us, why are we asking for more favors. Praying to God for selfish reasons, what is that?

Good thing I don't pray to him then..... selfish? Your making God seem pretty selfish here... and he's the one with all the powers, it would seem... things we are asking for should seem trivial to a God..... so how could we think we're burdening him? Like a parent, we would be his responsibility.... most parents don't just spit out the kid and throw him to the forest and claim "We're too busy"

I'm greatful to be alive, everything else is absolutely wonderful. When I die, I neither desire to go to heaven or hell. God can do with me what it wants. Fertilizer is fine by me. I'm truely greatful to have lived.

Oky doky..... so you're just happy being God's little lab rat? Sorry, I'm not trying to be an ass, but the way you worded all this, it's a tad..... odd.

[Ender's Shadow]

At point of conception, the the genetic identy of a human being is set and it is only a matter of time before the zygote developes into an organism that we can easily recognize. Therefore, the cluster of cell tissue is an individual and beacuse of its human DNA, it's genetically human. So, if an individual is human, isn't it murder to kill them?

Please reply for discussion.

[jamesbdunn]

Quote by: Ender's Shadow At point of conception, the the genetic identy of a human being is set and it is only a matter of time before the zygote developes into an organism that we can easily recognize. Therefore, the cluster of cell tissue is an individual and beacuse of its human DNA, it's genetically human. So, if an individual is human, isn't it murder to kill them? Please reply for discussion.

If something is not cognitive, is it murder? I suppose that might be a difference. If something has never had self-awareness, does it have anything to lose.

Eventually humans will develop other intelligent species. Perhaps through genetic manipulations, or even extreme advances in computer and/or software design. Based upon the cell cluster representing life, then perhaps the computer on your desk represents life in the same way, waiting for the consciousness to be downloaded.

We will sanction computer intelligence of sufficient self-awareness as citizens with all the rights and protections as every human.

So care should be taken where to draw the line, because what applies to one, applies to all.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Ender's Shadow At point of conception, the the genetic identy of a human being is set and it is only a matter of time before the zygote developes into an organism that we can easily recognize. Therefore, the cluster of cell tissue is an individual and beacuse of its human DNA, it's genetically human. So, if an individual is human, isn't it murder to kill them? Please reply for discussion.

You know the cheek tissue on the inside of your mouth, where you can actually bite off a tiny bit without any pain? If i gave you a bit of that, it would be (a) a cluster of living cells and, (b) each cell will have a complete copy of my DNA. it would be biologically the same as zygotic cells, except the cells may have differentiated into different roles. Would it be murder if you destroyed those cells? No.

The embryo is not an individual, sentient human until it's brain clicks on, and a brainwave is present. That is when I believe the line should be drawn.

[Savant]

I dunno a bout brainwaves, but I agree that a human is more than just DNA and life is more than just existing.

A lot of change happens at conception. Meaning can be willfully injected said changes, but does not exist independently. You can decide conception means "alive" if you like, but you must remain aware that you are the source of that perceived attribute.

My computer's mouse is blue. It is blue without my apologetics, without my will. If I decide my mouse is red - it stays blue. Blue is a real attribute, a color. Measurable, definable, explainable.

Is my mouse pretty? Pretty is subjective. It is an idea. I can't define beuty, and I can't prove my mouse is pretty. I say it looks fine. Where does looking fine cross into being beautiful? Who knows.

Is my mouse alive? Can I define life? It moves.... it interacts with it's environment... it is an individual.... it reproduces via factory..... If I chose one of it's attributes and become satisfied that anything with that attribute is alive - then I can call it alive. And I can defy any of you to PROVE that it is not alive.

And you will find that proving it is not alive is as difficult as proving that it's not pretty. If you don't understand what I am getting at, you probably (coincidently) are the sort of person who KNOWS the ABSOLUTE CORRECT ANSWER to this topic.

[sevendogs]

Quote by: Gorgo Why don't I have a right to destroy that life?

We destroy a lot of life every day. Animal rightists tell us that we have no right to destroy life of a pig, of a dog, etc. This is a pure practical reason to destroy some life. We decide it for a reason of having an enjoyable and comfortable life for ourseves, period. We kill murderers based on existing law. We discard some fetuses based on existing law. We kill pigs for meat and cats and dogs, because we have a reason and existing laws allow it; we we kill billions of germs by washing our hads and we eat vegetables killing plant lives. Now, existing technology made possible to restart a new identical organism from a single cell. Then, eating meat you commit mass killings of animals and surgeons removing human organs commit mass "murder" of human lives. Leave your ideological bases and start thinking. Religious zealots, including AR are in the dead end, if they live in a free society. We have to make hard choices sometimes. If we follow rules and restrictions set up by zealots, our life may become miserable. Even very devoted men and women of religion like sex, especially at the young age. This is hard to resist and they sin daily and repent daily, because they have sex more often and not always in the right way so they could feel comfortable with,because this contradicts their idea of purity and goodness. Why not to stay within practical reasons and set up laws to make our life more comfortable ? Abortion is bad, but it is a necessity on many ocasions.

[sevendogs]

this all does not matter. We need to do abortions for interests of the mother and the society. Our population needs control so others, who had been born, could live a happy life. Kids are a big obligation, but sex is gooood.

[shawmutt]

Life begins at conception. From the time the two pair of DNA match up and start splitting life as we know it is created. My wife had a miscarriage last year, the baby stopped growing at five weeks. It was heartbreaking and took us many months to even work up the desire to try again. It affected us profoundly. She is currently seven weeks pregnant--every day I expect the bad news. Our first sonogram is Monday. Sorry, I'm digressing--can you tell where my head is?

Anyway--I am personally against abortion. If a friend or family member told me they were thinking of it I would try my best to talk them out of it.

That being said, I am completely against making abortion illegal. Legal abortion should always be an option, even if that option is exploited by a minority. The picture, painted by pro-lifers, of the typical woman getting an abortion is very very skewed. Furthermore, if a woman does not want a baby, the woman will not have the baby, either by legal abortion, coat hanger in a back alley, or dumping it in the trash can. My momma always said (when I was really bad) that she gave me life and she can take it away from me. Of course, she was only joking...I think...

<rant>Personally, I have a serious problem with the local anti-abortionists. Many are right-wing nut jobs who want to protect unborn babies but don't give a damn about them after they are born. They don't want government programs like welfare and expect people without boots to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps". They complain about the poor people and "retards" ruining the downtown area. They support war and capital punishment. They stand outside with their gruesome pictures (which were really great to see the first months after my wife's miscarriage, let me tell you) and harass any female going into the clinic. Why aren't they out harassing the men who got the woman pregnant? Why aren't they spending the time doing something useful for society, like adopting children or volunteering to help children? Why are the parents of the kids my wife teaches picketing outside an abortion clinic instead of at home helping their kids learn to read past a first grade level (my wife teaches third)???</rant>

[namguy69]

Quote by: Ender's Shadow At point of conception, the the genetic identy of a human being is set and it is only a matter of time before the zygote developes into an organism that we can easily recognize. Therefore, the cluster of cell tissue is an individual and beacuse of its human DNA, it's genetically human. So, if an individual is human, isn't it murder to kill them? Please reply for discussion.

I agree with you but I won't get into it any further, but I'm on your side.

[Ender's Shadow]

Quote by: pikatore You know the cheek tissue on the inside of your mouth, where you can actually bite off a tiny bit without any pain? If I gave you a bit of that, it would be (a) a cluster of living cells and, (b) each cell will have a complete copy of my DNA. It would be biologically the same as zygotic cells, except the cells may have differentiated into different roles. Would it be murder if you destroyed those cells? No. The embryo is not an individual, sentient human until it's brain clicks on, and a brainwave is present. That is when I believe the line should be drawn.

Let me start by stating that the cells from cheek tissue are biologically different from the zygotic cell. If left to grow and divide, the cells from your cheek tissue would not create new cell tissue such as heart and brain tissue and eventually a whole human body. Instead, the cheek cells would divide into more and more cheek cells. This is how cheek cells differ from a zygotic cell, which does in fact develop into an entire human body.

And to press the issue of something not being living until self-awareness, I question if a coma patient has self-awareness while still in a coma. Without any brain activity, I doubt it, but yet they are still recognized as human beings. In some cases the brain will repair its self and the person will awake from their coma. I see this as being near enough the same as an embryo in development.

[jamesbdunn]

Quote by: sevendogs this all does not matter. We need to do abortions for interests of the mother and the society. Our population needs control so others, who had been born, could live a happy life. Kids are a big obligation, but sex is gooood.

If a group is so against abortions, they should be willing to shoulder the burden of raising the children as their parents. So at the stage where an abortion is to take place, the mother signs off and the fetus is transferred to either a prepared uterus to carry the fetus to term. Or the fetus is raised in a laboratory environment.

The group would then be responsible for all parenting until maturity at 18 years of age.

Are such procedures possible using todays' technologies?

[jamesbdunn]

Quote by: Ender's Shadow Let me start by stating that the cells from cheek tissue are biologically different from the zygotic cell. If left to grow and divide, the cells from your cheek tissue would not create new cell tissue such as heart and brain tissue and eventually a whole human body. Instead, the cheek cells would divide into more and more cheek cells. This is how cheek cells differ from a zygotic cell, which does in fact develop into an entire human body. And to press the issue of something not being living until self-awareness, I question if a coma patient has self-awareness while still in a coma. Without any brain activity, I doubt it, but yet they are still recognized as human beings. In some cases the brain will repair its self and the person will awake from their coma. I see this as being near enough the same as an embryo in development.

A cloned baby will learn just like the rest of us, right! Indistinguishable from any other human.

Are the ingredients for making life that are intentionally separated a form of murder? Cloning doesn't take place because, we intentionally keep scientists from doing that kind of work. Millions of cloned humans have been denied the right to live because of .... Their vast contributions to society will not be realized.

I don't have a problem with cloning. I'm more concerned with equal rights being afforded the cloned people.

So at what point of conception does murder become pertinent?

[namguy69]

Quote by: Ender's Shadow Let me start by stating that the cells from cheek tissue are biologically different from the zygotic cell. If left to grow and divide, the cells from your cheek tissue would not create new cell tissue such as heart and brain tissue and eventually a whole human body. Instead, the cheek cells would divide into more and more cheek cells. This is how cheek cells differ from a zygotic cell, which does in fact develop into an entire human body. And to press the issue of something not being living until self-awareness, I question if a coma patient has self-awareness while still in a coma. Without any brain activity, I doubt it, but yet they are still recognized as human beings. In some cases the brain will repair its self and the person will awake from their coma. I see this as being near enough the same as an embryo in development.

This subject can be debated forever, never will be difinative.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Ender's Shadow Let me start by stating that the cells from cheek tissue are biologically different from the zygotic cell. If left to grow and divide, the cells from your cheek tissue would not create new cell tissue such as heart and brain tissue and eventually a whole human body. Instead, the cheek cells would divide into more and more cheek cells. This is how cheek cells differ from a zygotic cell, which does in fact develop into an entire human body.

You don't want to go into biological technicalities to help your argument. The cheek cells DO have the biological potential to grow and divide, and become a seperate human being. They just don't, because they have already differentiated. It is quite possible to reverse this process and make them zygotic.

If it's all about potential, then i can see a lot of holes springing up in your argument.

Quote by: Ender's Shadow And to press the issue of something not being living until self-awareness, I question if a coma patient has self-awareness while still in a coma. Without any brain activity, I doubt it, but yet they are still recognized as human beings. In some cases the brain will repair its self and the person will awake from their coma. I see this as being near enough the same as an embryo in development.

And you honestly think that you can treat an embryo in the same manner? A baby doesn't 'wake' from multiple sclerosis. The embryo has never had a brainwave like the coma patient had, it's completely different.

[Amolibri]

Shawmutt: "That being said, I am completely against making abortion illegal. Legal abortion should always be an option, even if that option is exploited by a minority. The picture, painted by pro-lifers, of the typical woman getting an abortion is very very skewed."
AGREED!

I think we're talking about the law here...when life begins is not an issue when the law specifies that abortion (mostly in the 1st trimester) is legal. "Pro-lifers" are pushing hard to repeal Roe v. Wade, and make all abortions illegal. This will NOT eliminate abortion, as we all know....just criminalize it. Before 1973 abortion existed, and mainly depended upon a woman's access to it (economic, mainly). My impression is that the "anti abortion" movement is populated by alot of white elderly men...and they are merciless/judgemental. My attempts to speak to some pickets about ADOPTION at our Planned Parenthood, was met with intolerance, and not even letting me speak...assuming that I was against their entire position. My respect for them has dwindled over the years. My own experience (which not that many others can claim) is enough for me to say...there but for the grace of God go....ANY of us!) Their type of "Christianity" is not mine.

[gopchick]

This is such a great debate.

I think that the little girl who was born October 24th last year at 21 weeks gestation period who got to go home yesterday is a prime example that a unborn child no matter what week the mother is in is a life.

I truly feel that life begins at conception and that you have just been blessed with a precious gift!

[Osborn F Enready]

Life does begin at conception.

Individual rights begin at birth.

[gopchick]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Life does begin at conception. Individual rights begin at birth.

So right and so sad.

An unborn should have the same rigths as a born baby.