Does life begin at conception? I think it does.

[loser]

Guess what? The turnip can survive on it's own and has it's own internal system of survival. The fetus is dependant on the mother's food, energy and everything else.

Isn't an infant of at least up to two years DEPENDENT on its mother for survival? If left alone, without ANY assistance or support from a family member, at what age would a child become SELF-SUFFICIENT enough to SURVIVE?

Seeing as how young infants are TOTALLY dependent on their parents for survival, would it be wrong for parents to eliminate burdensome and unwanted children in any manner that they see fit?

Why does dependence upon another for survival make that life any less important? Look around at all of the debilitating diseases that have millions of people DEPENDENT upon others for survival. Should we live by the rule "survival of the fittest" and let those who cannot make it on their own simply die?

[loser]

Twitches and movement is easily dismissed as development of the muscles and internal structure.... that doesn't mean there is a consciousness or life at that point in time.

People in comas show little (if any) consciousness...are they dead or alive?

[loser]

[quote][Yeah, easy to say when you're not the one who was raped. We'll see where your forgiveness is then.
/QUOTE]

I agree. Forgiveness is one of those sentiments rarely practiced where it is needed most. I didn't say it would be easy.

You went out of your way to find a scenario which would support your stance that it is acceptable to abort a fetus. Yet, even in your scenario it is STILL unacceptable! The unborn child was not the rapist...its not his or her fault. If you treat the child in a certain way based on who its father was, you are committing a grave injustice to that child. Do you want to be judged by the actions of your mother or father? If so, you're one of the lucky ones.

[loser]

Tell you what.... since your so devoted in the life of an unborn fetus, hows about those who don't want the fetuses drop them off at your door and you can raise them all? I'll get a little chicken incubator for ya.

It's not about devotion...it's about TRUTH. The question basically is if there is any value in an unborn fetus deserving of life. Thankfully, for me and you, there was. Should it be any different for any other?

[Apotheosis]

'Human life', biologically, is created at conception. The choice as to whether or not to have a child, depends on your morality. Quite frankly however, I say that reality, and what is your 'real situation' outweighs what people think is 'right or wrong'.

[Osborn F Enready]

Morgan Freeman said: You have yet to even attempt to make a case for this "right".

Isn't it obvious morgan?

It is IMPOSSIBLE to force a woman to birth a child she doesn't want, under our observance of individual rights.

Are they going to have police come and strap the mother to a chair and force feed her?

Are they going to monitor every item she puts in her body from conception to birth?

If a woman doesn't want to have a child, she won't. No law will change the outcome, only the methods. The methods will get more cruel and abusive to all involved as the law goes further toward encroaching the mothers right to "deliver" or choose abortion.

[Fonceai]

I'm gonna have to agree, specifically with the way you address the word "force".

No matter how comfortable you offer to make her life, how much money the unwilling father has to give, how much love the willing husband has to offer, or anything you could possibly offer...

If the woman does not want to carry and birth the baby, it is her right to decide what to do.

[Praxius]

Quote by: loser Why does dependence upon another for survival make that life any less important? Look around at all of the debilitating diseases that have millions of people DEPENDENT upon others for survival. Should we live by the rule "survival of the fittest" and let those who cannot make it on their own simply die?

Sure why not? It'd make things easier.

Of course generalizing as I am is no different then you generalizing all the factors of why abortions should be allowed, so tit for tat.

[namguy69]

Whatever...

[Praxius]

Whatever indeed..... the polls above already show that the majority think otherwise.

[loser]

To me, the answer to this question is pretty much cut and dried. One merely has to ask this question: If the embryo that developed into the person that I call "myself" had been terminated at conception, would this have had any bearing on my "life"?

IF you come to the conclusion that if the conception that created you would have been aborted, that your life would have also been aborted, then you MUST concede that life begins at conception. If it didn't, then destroying YOUR embryo would have no effect on YOUR life.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to force a woman to birth a child she doesn't want, under our observance of individual rights.

It's impossible to FORCE ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING (though torture sometimes works)! Since you can't make gay-bashers not bash gays, since you can't make racists NOT commit hate crimes, since you can't make thieves NOT steal or murders NOT murder, is it your contention that we should abolish ALL laws against ALL crimes because they are ONLY EFFECTED against those who have ALREADY broken them?

You're right...take this board for example. I am sure that one of the intentions of this site is to get people to THINK. But you know what? You can't MAKE people think!

[Praxius]

Quote by: loser To me, the answer to this question is pretty much cut and dried. One merely has to ask this question: If the embryo that developed into the person that I call "myself" had been terminated at conception, would this have had any bearing on my "life"? IF you come to the conclusion that if the conception that created you would have been aborted, that your life would have also been aborted, then you MUST concede that life begins at conception. If it didn't, then destroying YOUR embryo would have no effect on YOUR life.

I just see a fetus as a vessel for my consciousness. When my ass is smacked and I take my breath, I am now alive and in my body. Prior to that, it's just a developing shell of a human. If it is aborted, I just wait for the next body to become available.

Far fetched? Perhaps, but in order to explain all my reasoning in order to make sense, it would take weeks. It's logical to me, so that's all that matters.... hence my position on abortions.

[namguy69]

Quote by: loser To me, the answer to this question is pretty much cut and dried. One merely has to ask this question: If the embryo that developed into the person that I call "myself" had been terminated at conception, would this have had any bearing on my "life"? IF you come to the conclusion that if the conception that created you would have been aborted, that your life would have also been aborted, then you MUST concede that life begins at conception. If it didn't, then destroying YOUR embryo would have no effect on YOUR life. It's impossible to FORCE ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING (though torture sometimes works)! Since you can't make gay-bashers not bash gays, since you can't make racists NOT commit hate crimes, since you can't make thieves NOT steal or murders NOT murder, is it your contention that we should abolish ALL laws against ALL crimes because they are ONLY EFFECTED against those who have ALREADY broken them? You're right...take this board for example. I am sure that one of the intentions of this site is to get people to THINK. But you know what? You can't MAKE people think!

No, you certainly can't make people think, it's especially true in these neo times. Common sense seems to handed out in small quantities.

[jamesbdunn]

Quote by: loser IF you come to the conclusion that if the conception that created you would have been aborted, that your life would have also been aborted, then you MUST concede that life begins at conception. If it didn't, then destroying YOUR embryo would have no effect on YOUR life.

The events that were put into motion to create the Big Bang would give the woman getting the abortion no real choice. It would only look to our insignificant minds that she was making a choice because we could not relate all that transpired everywhere to cause all events to happen leading up to her apparent choice. Based upon prior conditions, she had no choice. All life was determined to begin and end many trillions of years before mankind even existed.

------- The following is not related, it's a religious side show ------

Definition: Where the word "men" is used, it is meant to relate to all humans.

This question usually has a religious basis. I suppose the issue here depends upon if you believe in God or not. God is all powerful and all knowing, throughout all time. Therefore if everything is predetermined, any abortion or miscarriage that does happen, was supposed to happen.

On the same basis, if you believe in Christianity or the Quran, each person is predestined to either go to heaven or hell, and there is nothing the individual can do about it.

The only words ever written by God to be passed down were in the form of stone tablets as the Ten Commandments, everything else has been written by men, not God. Why would God ever need to speak twice? Does God make mistakes that need to be adjusted now and then? Think what you like.

To control any other person regarding ANY action based solely upon a religious viewpoint, is like a King on a remote island saying you will give your first born son to him for his sexual pleasure because that is just how it has always been and it's written in the sacred rules of the land. Just because there are ancient texts alluding to some state of enlightenment, doesn't mean it is based upon legitimate factual information, no matter how beautifully or intelligently it was written.

If you can't believe fully in the Ten Commandments, you shouldn't be giving any theological value to the books written by men when the books themselves are based upon the Ten Commandments.

Reading the Ten Commandments carefully disavows the Bible and the Quran as legitimate representations of Gods words.

So if you want to prevent a woman from seeking an abortion, use reasons other than religion.

Religion shall continue to be interpreted with no concrete details until we can go back in time and actually observe history, or God chooses to change predestination for some reason, perhaps the Ten Commandments. The interpretor shall always have their own agenda, usually based upon human weaknesses; power and money.

The weak of mind will tend to follow other people whom seem to know more than themselves. The Ten Commandments prohibits this, a sin. "Thou shalt not speak in the Lords name". But, men that desire admiration from other men will continue to convince other men to follow their teachings, or the teachings they were taught, not because it is true.

Despite the Ten Commandments. Despite the words of God. Men prefer to listen to men rather than figuring out for themselves the extensive ramifications of the Ten Commandments. The Bible doesn't put the fear of God into the reader, it puts the fears produced by man into the reader. Nowhere in the Ten Commandments does it allude to a Heaven or Hell. Men decieving men to acquire power and prestige.

My relationship with God is not open to any other person's interpretation. Why is yours?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Since when is predestination in the bible or the Qu'ran? As I recall, the vast majority of christians put no stock in this belief.

[jamesbdunn]

Predestination is a requirement because God according to the Bible is all knowing. This requires events to be causal. If God is not all knowing, then God is not all powerful.

[Praxius]

And if God has already known everything, predetermined everything and solidifies the concept of destiny, ie: it's already known who will goto heaven or hell....... then why bother worshiping him? It's already determined if you will go or not.

[Osborn F Enready]

loser said: To me, the answer to this question is pretty much cut and dried. One merely has to ask this question: If the embryo that developed into the person that I call "myself" had been terminated at conception, would this have had any bearing on my "life"?

It wouldn't matter, you didn't own your life at that time, nor was it recognized by any official body as a individual life at that time. If she had changed her mind and aborted, would you have sued?

loser said: It's impossible to FORCE ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING (though torture sometimes works)! Since you can't make gay-bashers not bash gays, since you can't make racists NOT commit hate crimes, since you can't make thieves NOT steal or murders NOT murder, is it your contention that we should abolish ALL laws against ALL crimes because they are ONLY EFFECTED against those who have ALREADY broken them?

No, not at all.

All people can be held accoutable for their actions against another individual.

Abortion is not dealing with the fetus as an individual, since it is not an individual, its a PART of the mother that is dependent on the mothers diet, mood, lifestyle and WILL to birth it.

Gays are individuals, and if you bash them, you can be held accountable WITHOUT a specific law that targets "gay bashing". That is why there is no NEED for a gay bashing law, and they are just reaching out to APPEASE a high budget special intrest group and voting block support.

Racists targets, are all individuals. If a person targets someone and violates their rights, their race is IRRELEVANT, because there are laws that cover assault, battery, murder, attempted murder, harassment already. Once again, just the politicians reaching out to appease high dollar special intrests and limited voting block support.

Theft is illegal, and covered under basic property rights.

Murder is obviously against basic individual rights.

ALLLL of the things you just mentioned are BULLSHIT LAWS, made to dupe the public into thinking something is being done, and to PANDER directly to minority voters.

So, your point?

loser said: You're right...take this board for example. I am sure that one of the intentions of this site is to get people to THINK. But you know what? You can't MAKE people think!

I don't have a gun to anyones head, nor am I paying a police officer to put a gun to someones head to FORCE THEM to think.

I like to make people think by showing them how illogical, and ill placed their faith is in bi-partisan liars, and religious sheeple herders. I try to make some people see how they are used as tools, by the media and the politicians who spend your tax dollars like they were never-ending.

In other words, yes, I like to brew the coffee strong, and put it right under their nose by being upwind. No force, just a nice little wake up call....

“The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves.”
-Dresden James

“Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no Constitution, no Law, no Court can save it...Where do you stand Citizen?”
-Judge Learned Hand (1961)

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: jamesbdunn Predestination is a requirement because God according to the Bible is all knowing. This requires events to be causal. If God is not all knowing, then God is not all powerful.

Perhaps God could know what we'll chose, but most christians like to think that he allows us to chose. Knowing what we'll choose and deciding what we'll choose is markedly different.

[Athena]

Jewish Perspectives

the acceptance of the Augustinian doctrine in Roman Catholic and much of (western) Protestant Christianities, the strict prohibition against abortion is perfectly consistent:
It must accordingly be said that when Catholics reputedly decide to "let the mother die" rather than allow an abortion, they are not at all being cruel, merely consistent with a logical concern. The mother has been presumably baptized as an infant; let her die and "go to her reward." But let the child be brought to term and baptized and saved from perdition. So sincere is this concern that theologians at the Sorbonne in the nineteenth century invented a baptismal syringe, wherewith to baptize a fetus in utero in the event of a spontaneous abortion, a miscarriage. [ftn. 10: St. Fulgentius, De Fide 27, cited by E. Westermarck, The Origin and Development of the Moral Ideas (1908), vol. I, pp. 416-17. On the use of the Syringe in baptism, see H. W. Haggard, Devils, Drugs and Doctors (New York, 1929), p. 4.] (84)
[John T. Noonan, representing the Catholic perspective in these materials, insists that Christian opposition to abortion has nothing to do with ensoulment or concerns regarding infant baptism.]

As with the debate over ensoulment, the debate over original sin remains a debate within Christian communities. Judaism preserves the earlier Jewish and pre-Augustinian understanding of the Garden story as a story about individual sinfulness - sinfulness which can be atoned for and overcome by individuals. Judaism thereby squarely rejects the Augustinian teaching - that the soul emplaced in the fetus is already diseased with a sinful nature inherited by all human beings. Accordingly, the especially Catholic sense of urgency regarding the baptism of the fetus otherwise condemned is

...a concern that the Jewish community cannot share. Having no such concept of original sin, we recite daily in our prayers something that comes directly from the Talmud: "My God, the soul with which thou hast endowed me is pure." We inherit a pure soul, which becomes contaminated only by our own misdeeds. By that token, early abortion would send a fetus to heaven in a state of pristine purity! (84)