Christians Only

[PatrickHenry]

I wanted to discuss a few things with other Christians WITHOUT the endless wrangling over God/No God, etc. I know this is a debate site and according to Sean's rules anything goes. But I am asking politely if you non-Christians would refrain from this thread just so things don't bog down. I have no enforcement power; I am not a mod. But if you aren't Christian and want to get off onto a rant, I will ignore your posts, and I hope my brother/sister Christians will, too. This is a kinda family discussion, but feel free to listen in.

So, let's see. I have a few problems with scripture, the nature of God, and other issues. But I am a man of strong faith, and I believe that God will eventually answer all my questions. He gave me enough revelation of Himself to give me a gift of eternal life. I am certain He will lead me into all truth...

[bishop]

so do you have a question/point?

[MrOtis]

My feeling is that there wouldn't have been nearly as many apparent contradictions--the ones skeptics love to point out--if the scriptures had truly been created after the fact. Wouldn't have been a lot simpler to just edit the texts so that there weren't so many questions about, say, infant baptism, or predestination versus free will?

For me, it comes down to the eyewitnesses to the Resurrection, and the effect it had on their lives. I just can't rationalize my way through a naturalistic explanation for the sudden development of a new religion in Jerusalem based on the life of a carpenter from a nothing town in Galilee.

[PatrickHenry]

Are you a Christian, bishop?

Yeah, I have a few topics for discussion...

Some of 'em are in reference to the inerrancy of the Bible. I have problems with the first few chapters of Genesis in particular. Up through the time of Noah and the Great Flood.

One thing, it seems as though the worldwide flood recorded in the Bible didn't happen, at least as far as science can tell. There is no geological evidence and the distribution of species doesn't indicate an extinction event that took place in the time since man has walked the earth.

The Adam and Eve story is not all that accurate either from the scientific evidence, as far as I can see. So my question is: What is God trying to tell us with these stories? He has given them to us for a reason, even if they are not literally true. I think one of the reasons for the Flood story, among others, is to let us know that He values all of His creations, even the least significant animal. And that we, as His stewards, are not free to extinguish them. Leading me to think He is displeased with our negligence of the environment causing species extinction due to habitat destruction.

These are just some of the questions I have to talk over with other Christians. I am not skeptical of supernatural events. An All-Powerful God can do whatever He wants to, so it doesn't surprise me that he shows up once in a while when it suits His purpose...

[mr.perfecto]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Are you a Christian, bishop? Yeah, I have a few topics for discussion... Some of 'em are in reference to the inerrancy of the Bible. I have problems with the first few chapters of Genesis in particular. Up through the time of Noah and the Great Flood. One thing, it seems as though the worldwide flood recorded in the Bible didn't happen, at least as far as science can tell. There is no geological evidence and the distribution of species doesn't indicate an extinction event that took place in the time since man has walked the earth. The Adam and Eve story is not all that accurate either from the scientific evidence, as far as I can see. So my question is: What is God trying to tell us with these stories? He has given them to us for a reason, even if they are not literally true. I think one of the reasons for the Flood story, among others, is to let us know that He values all of His creations, even the least significant animal. And that we, as His stewards, are not free to extinguish them. Leading me to think He is displeased with our negligence of the environment causing species extinction due to habitat destruction. These are just some of the questions I have to talk over with other Christians. I am not skeptical of supernatural events. An All-Powerful God can do whatever He wants to, so it doesn't surprise me that he shows up once in a while when it suits His purpose...

One thing to consider about the Flood is that we don't know exactly what we should be looking for when we examine the geological history of the planet. We might infer somethings from scripture, but, even then, we can't completely explain what we have found so far. It is very difficult to assemble a puzzle with no clue what the final result should look like--only marginally easier if we have a word description of it.

[bishop]

Are you a Christian, bishop?

yes, although i'm skeptical about several things - i don't believe in the bible verbatim and i follow my own path, rather than dogma. i've never bashed christianity as a religion in other threads here (i've probably said a limited amount about the corrupt institutions of christianity though), so.... the only thing i don't do is tout my faith which is why i guess you're confused.. so take that however you like. if you accept this explanation, then say so, and i'll participate honoring your previous statement.

[MrOtis]

The fossil record may be the remnants of the Flood. Decaying remains are generally scattered by scavengers or decay away to nothing unless the carcass is buried rapidly under mud.

Then you have the nearly worldwide distribution of flood legends with a very similar theme--all of humanity wiped out except for one righteous family. I have my own beliefs on what God was doing in Genesis 6, but I'll hold that for later. Too near bedtime right now.

There was an article in the Telegraph (U.K.) was published Dec. 26 which I found very interesting: An expert in pre-human fossil remains completed the first-ever study of the 200 or so skeletons (I was surprised that there are so few, since there are about 60 named species and subspecies of "pre-human") and found that the estimated skull size and body weight for the former owners of dem bones all fell within the normal bell curve for modern humans.

In other words, everything from Australopithecus on, Neanderthal included, are just misidentified homo sapiens, who have generally been getting bigger over time.

There are plenty of anomalous finds out there, too, such as dead-on drawings of sauropods and horned dinosaurs on pottery in South America from pre-Mayan days, petroglyphs that appear to show dinosaurs on rocks in the Western U.S., and the disputed mixed human/dino tracks at Glen Rose, Texas.

There's no question that biblical literalists have a lot to explain about the fossil record, but so does Neo-Darwinist theory. Again, I go back to the Resurrection as an anchor point, myself.

[bishop]

the world is a pretty big place, and humans spread across it years before the bible. i recognize the fact that humans wrote the bible, and in my view, out of either arrogance or ignorance, they failed to realize that other cultures existed. i wonder, for example, if there were any writings/studies done on south american indians or the japanese during the days when the old testament was written. but i do believe there was a big flood and i believe it occurred at atlantis. years past on, and the story was exaggerated to the point of being a fable.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: bishop the only thing i don't do is tout my faith which is why i guess you're confused.. so take that however you like. if you accept this explanation, then say so, and i'll participate honoring your previous statement.

Sure, bishop. Share your misgivings, because I intend to voice mine. I have been a Christian actively for 22 years. I mean going to church, reading the Bible, praying, singing worship and praise songs, giving money to Christ centered endeavors. And trying to implement the teachings of Jesus in my day to day life. He's a friend, a living friend.

But some of Jesus teachings are hard, hard to understand. And definitely counterintuitve to carry out. Like this one:

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you

[Samildanach]

I am not a Christian at all but I had to answer because I find that particular passage very easy to understand. Fact is if you believe in the bible then you believe in good vs evil to a certain degree.
What is being said there is basically you cant fight fire with fire. Hate only breeds hate and hate is the weapon of the enemy, so by hating you are only making the enemy stronger. By not hating as it were you are
1 not adding to the enemies forces - ie not becoming one of them
2 providing an example that may turn some of the enemy force to your way of thinking through examples of courage.

Its like in todays world, if everyone refused to go to war, there would be none, and thats the whole essence of good, just do NO wrong because you are only responsible for your OWN conduct, no one elses and in the end thats what you will be judged on.

[Samildanach]

I think the main point is that in this discussion we assume god exists. I can do that for the purposes of this discussion.

[bishop]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Sure, bishop. Share your misgivings, because I intend to voice mine. I have been a Christian actively for 22 years. I mean going to church, reading the Bible, praying, singing worship and praise songs, giving money to Christ centered endeavors. And trying to implement the teachings of Jesus in my day to day life. He's a friend, a living friend. But some of Jesus teachings are hard, hard to understand. And definitely counterintuitve to carry out.

i've been pretty disguisted with outspoken christians for a while now. it's a big reason why i keep my faith to myself, and it's actually helped to formulate my own faith. i generally keep it cereberal - no rituals, no prayer. got thoroughly disguisted with my local (catholic) church a couple years ago and stopped going altogether. they want money to fund their own corruption. all the things i don't like, however, relate almost entirely to the organization, rather than the religion.

as far as the bible goes, i largely view the old testament as a book of short stories, rather than something i should live my life by. although, i do follow the basic moral arguments (at least to the best of my ability - we are all sinners after all) like the 10 commandments. there are definitely some nutty things in that old book - like stoning adulterers.

for the new testament, i have some particularly "radical" views. i do not believe in the holy trinity. imo, christ was a man, and a deeply spiritual and devoted man. in a world full of corruption and sin, he broke away from it and taught about the right way to live one's life. he did die for our sins, but since i believe he was a natural man, i don't believe that he was the physical link between man and god. it is the lessons that christ taught that lead us to salvation.

another thing that puts me at odds with the dogma of christianity, rather than a belief in god, is that human beings have evolved from very primitive (and animalistic) roots. this fact leads me to question the biblical explanation of original sin - because animals are generally seen as amoral, and if humans behaved as they did, we'd be considered immoral.

at one level, my view of god is a god of nature - a creater and a taker of life. where christ fits into the picture is to advise us on the condition of the human soul.. others have come and gone (even before christ at time), emulating christ's life - buddah, ghandi, various saints, even mlk jr. the goal of this spiritual education is to move us away from our animalistic roots and towards enlightenment.

[PatrickHenry]

So bishop: If Christ was a man, what about His power to heal and forgive(sin)? Is that available to all men or did the gospel writers get it wrong? And the resurrection, yes or no? Is the basis for your understanding your own wisdom, some other scholars or faith in God?

What about the Holy Spirit? Does God really indwell people or are they just fooling themselves, in your opinion?

I find it tougher to be a Christian now than before Dubya took office. I tell my Christian friends that I think him Satanic, and they look at me in horror... I say the same thing to those who don't believe and they think I am a nut, that all Christians are venomous serpents like Bush2. But there are those who support my position, too. However, few Christians are able to see past the smokescreen of Bush's holy rhetoric to the money-driven core of his despicable life. Consequently, I'm on the outs with nearly everyone. That's okay though, Jesus is my friend, and I have a few with skin on, too.

For a Christian not to pray...bishop, don't you think God would like to hear from you?

[Gregory]

I'm a Christian, although I seem to become more skeptical with each passing day.

One thing, it seems as though the worldwide flood recorded in the Bible didn't happen, at least as far as science can tell. There is no geological evidence and the distribution of species doesn't indicate an extinction event that took place in the time since man has walked the earth. The Adam and Eve story is not all that accurate either from the scientific evidence, as far as I can see. So my question is: What is God trying to tell us with these stories?

I for one tend to take many of the Old Testament stories (especially those of Genesis) metaphorically, not literally. I personally have a difficult time believing some of the things in Genesis. There are too many gray areas involved:
- Were Adam and Eve the first people, and their offsping created all of humanity? Scripture does not seem to suggest so:
Genesis 4:13 Cain said to the LORD , "My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."
- Why did people live so long? Was time measured differently?
- Noah took two of every animal on a boat? Yeah, right.

[PatrickHenry]

Like I said, Gregory, the early part of Genesis is sorta out there from a science standpoint. But along comes Abraham and I start to get a good feeling about the accuracy. He still lived a mighty long time, but some of the events are realistically unflattering. For instance:

Genesis 12:11-13 And it happened, when he had come near to enter into Egypt, he said to Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that you are a beautiful woman to look upon. And it will be when the Egyptians see you, they shall say, This is his wife. And they will kill me, but they will save you alive. I pray you, say that you are my sister, so that it may be well with me for your sake. And my soul shall live because of you.

See Abram lying? If it wasn't true, why wouldn't the early writers have just made up a truthful ancestor for themselves?

[PatrickHenry]

In case anyone wants it, here is a free bible program I use. Good features and accurate text from various translations. http://www.e-sword.net/

[Suburbanite]

Quote by: PatrickHenry So, let's see. I have a few problems with scripture, the nature of God, and other issues. But I am a man of strong faith, and I believe that God will eventually answer all my questions. He gave me enough revelation of Himself to give me a gift of eternal life. I am certain He will lead me into all truth...

When did he give you this?

[PatrickHenry]

Are you a Christian, Suburbanite?

The gift of eternal life is a free one and the promise is found in John 3:16.

John 3:16-21 For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to be judge of the world; he sent him so that the world might have salvation through him. The man who has faith in him does not come up to be judged; but he who has no faith in him has been judged even now, because he has no faith in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the test by which men are judged: the light has come into the world and men have more love for the dark than for the light, because their acts are evil. The light is hated by everyone whose acts are evil and he does not come to the light for fear that his acts will be seen. But he whose life is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his acts have been done by the help of God.

[Mr.Vicchio]

PH,

I was really REALLY bored the other day so I scanned some NDE sites, namely http://www.near-death.com/ and while I think about half the stories I read were truly BS for attention, some seemed at least plausible.

The one over-ridding message each of the numerous NDE people seem to carry on the Bible is that it IS true. Just not litterally, if oyu open your self to it spiritually it is accurate, but if you try to understand it as a litteral message you will fail.

I believe that most Churchs, okay basically ever "major" religion is hopelessly flawed. Chrisitianty is but one aspect of spirituality. This is new for me, something I am struggling with, but I think Jesus's message is to Love, love yourself, Love Your friends, family and neighbors, but most importantly, love those that do not love you, or know you.

That's what being a Christian is coming to mean for me.

[PatrickHenry]

You're a tough one to love for me, Mr. Vicchio. Our views on nearly everything are so opposed, yet I think we have brotherhood here. As you referred to above, there is no perfect church, and if there were they'd probably throw me out if I went there. But loving those who are opposed to you, especially to those who hate what you stand for, is something ONLY the Spirit of God can do. If we have a tough time with someone, likely it's because we haven't allowed the Spirit to impart love for that person. Is Saddam lovable? Osama? No, they are evil, but the message is that no one is beyond hope. God loves even them and hopes that they will turn from evil.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, By my life, says the Lord, I have no pleasure in the death of the evil-doer; it is more pleasing to me if he is turned from his way and has life: be turned, be turned from your evil ways; why are you looking for death, O children of Israel?

Our own nature, human nature, is not on board with this view. Our own sense of right and wrong is all in favor of "getting even" or in other words, revenge. The evildoers should be punished. But God still has hopes that they will realize their wrong, repent, and begin to do right. They may still have to face the earthly consequences for their previous actions, but God cares for their eternal souls. God has residence in the hearts of men who turn to Him and gives us the ability to love people, even if we hate what they do. It's a bit of a puzzle how it works, but no one has a full understanding of the nature of God...