Was America Founded Upon The Christian Faith And Religion?

[RickSp]

Quote by: Starboy And you think god is in the war blessing business?

Quote by: Feefer Yes, I do, I belive that he will bless the plans of a God-Respecting person or president.

I believe the phrase is "Gott Mit Uns". Invoking it with a stiff armed salute and heel clicks is entirely optional.

[MrOtis]

Quote by: RickSp To claim that the republic was based on Christianity or the Bible is simply innaccurate. The Founders were all Christians of one stripe or another, as were the vast majority of the colonial Americans. That being said, aside from the obvious European heritage which culturally was Judeo-Christian, our "style of government and system of justice", as you put it, have absolutely nothing to do with the Bible or a specifically Judeo-Christian morality. They have everything to do with English common law, the English constitution, and the works of John Locke, Rouseau and the other rationalists of the Enlightenment. To claim otherwise is to distort history.

Locke was a Puritan who drew his ideas about the rights of men from the book of Genesis.

I would hardly put Dobson or Falwell in the same category as Stalin or Mao. And Hitler, well, Hitler was a Christian. He had been an alter boy, as a matter of fact, and considered himself a Catholic to the day he died.

Wearing a baseball cap doesn't make me starting third baseman for the Cubs. Hitler was not a Christian, which he proved beyond a doubt with his acts.

Nazi Germany is an interesting example of the intermingling of church and state: The Founders were right in seperating church and state.

I don't disagree with you there. Again, the worst thing to happen to Christianity from a doctrinal perspective is when Constantine began to use it to further his political ambitions. Like the neocons are doing today.

[Gorgo]

So, you are the one that decides who is a Christian and who isn't? I wondered where they kept you.

Quote by: MrOtis Wearing a baseball cap doesn't make me starting third baseman for the Cubs. Hitler was not a Christian, which he proved beyond a doubt with his acts.

[RickSp]

Quote by: MrOtis Locke was a Puritan who drew his ideas about the rights of men from the book of Genesis..

John Locke was a rationalist. He may have been raised a Puritan and I have no doubt that he was influenced by many sources. His arguments for religous tolerance were radical for their time and not at all consistent with mainstream Puritanism.

Quote by: MrOtis Wearing a baseball cap doesn't make me starting third baseman for the Cubs. Hitler was not a Christian, which he proved beyond a doubt with his acts.

Hitler was raised as a Christian, thought of himself as a Christian, invoked God in both public and private, and incorporated Christian doctrine into his government. A million Wermacht soldiers wore belt buckels proclaiming "God With Us". If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. Merely because you don't like the idea doesn't make the history any less true.

Quote by: MrOtis I don't disagree with you there. Again, the worst thing to happen to Christianity from a doctrinal perspective is when Constantine began to use it to further his political ambitions. Like the neocons are doing today.

It is amazing how much of Christianity was effectively created in the fourth century. And you are right, using religion for political advantage is as old as sin, to coin a phrase.

[Starboy]

Quote by: MrOtis Now, think about the logic of that. In order for the Constitution to be accepted, it had to be voted on and approved by the states.

It makes me think that there were more people who pretended to be proper Christians for practical reasons than actually were "proper" Christians. Kinda like all the people today that go to church for many reasons that don't have anything to do with worship of god. It was not all that long ago in the colonies were people were killed for not holding the "correct" belief about god. For some reason Christians seem to think that they are better people than they actually are.

Starboy

[Feefer]

Quote by: Gorgo So, you are the one that decides who is a Christian and who isn't? I wondered where they kept you.

No kidding!

[Starboy]

Quote by: Feefer Freedom is a Christian value

That is just plain silly. If god valued freedom then everyone would go to heaven when they died. In heaven you would find Hitler, Gandhi, and Madeline O'Hara.

Starboy

[Feefer]

Then....

The Founding Fathers granted us "freedom of religion" not "freedom from religion" Do you get that? Some people claim there is a wall of seperation between church and state, that wall doesnt exist It cannot be found in any of the Constitutional documents. Period.
America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. Prayer and religious services have been part of our cultural experience since the Mayflower.
Like it or not religious expression is part of the American identity.

Go back to the draftig of the U.S. Constitution, as it was happening Benjamin Franklin stood and said these words:

I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of men.....

The Founding Fathers were challanged to pray every day at the beginning of government buiseness. They started to pray at their meetings, a tradition the House and the Senate still embrace today. If you still have doubts about America's heritage. listen to Thomas Jefferson:

God who gave us life and liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis?

Now.....

General John Ashcroft invited members of his staff to pray in the morining- before work, on a voluntary basis - thay were all for it and went into high gear. Are these actions unconstitutional or a return to decency?

In America our sense of decency, morality and moral underpinnings are rooted in Judeo-Christian heritage as expressed in the Bible. Without that foundation, we'd have a jungle.


Now, on what they belived: Here's the Truth:

The denominational affiliation of these men is a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson and Franklin, this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith.

[Feefer]

Also noted from someone else I have debated this topic with: Although a few were likely deists, one will notice that none of the Founding Fathers were atheists. That's more than a sign of the times. It means even the skeptics of the bunch recognized the fallacy of everything coming from nothing.

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: MrOtis Whoa. Christianity the biggest promoter of slavery, conquest and the rape of small nations? Which translation of the Bible do you read?

I suggest you read Chivalry, Maurice Keen, (Yale, 1984), pp. 44-63 (ISBN 0-300-03360-5). To learn a brief history of Christianity, the Church and its involvement in chivalric ideals and practises. It would be a challenge to find a better catalogue of murder, rape, conquest and slavery. Of course I could name other books, featuring different examples across history, from the medieval period right up too the modern day, however I'm sure that single chapter should be enough.

If you would like some biblical passages, then again I shall provide some sources: -

On Slavery: -

44 " 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Leviticus 25:44-46

On War and Slavery: -

32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:



337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the LORD was 675;

38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72;

39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61;

40 16,000 people, of which the tribute for the LORD was 32.



41 Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Numbers 31:32-41

Slavery as Punishment For Crime: -

1 "If a man steals an ox or a sheep and slaughters it or sells it, he must pay back five head of cattle for the ox and four sheep for the sheep.
2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; 3 but if it happens [a] after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed.

"A thief must certainly make restitution, but if he has nothing, he must be sold to pay for his theft.

Exodus 22:1-3

So not only does the bible support the conquest of other nations, but the theft of their property, and the enslavements of its people. Rape, conquest and slavery.

You can look these passages up in any version of the bible you please at this site: -

http://bible.gospelcom.net/

Quote by: Feefer Freedom is a Christian value

Somebody hasn't been studying their bible. However God loves a sinner come to their understanding.

[Starboy]

feefer you are doing what Christians seem to do automatically. Just because someone uses the word god they automatically think that they must be talking about the Christian god (as if there is only one kind of that either). It would be one thing if all the founding fathers went on about Jesus, but they did not. Yes they talk about god but that doesn't mean that their concept of god is anything like your concept of god. For all you know it could be more like Einstein's concept of god. God is one of these meaningless words that people toss out to mollify all the different groups with their different concepts of god.

Starboy

[RickSp]

Quote by: Feefer Then.... The Founding Fathers granted us "freedom of religion" not "freedom from religion" Do you get that? Some people claim there is a wall of seperation between church and state, that wall doesnt exist It cannot be found in any of the Constitutional documents. Period.

You are just making this up as you go along right? Wihout "freedom from religion" "freedom of religion" cannot exist. It is very simple. And whose Constitution are you claiming to have read? Where in the US Consitution can you find the word "God" or "Jesus"? What part of the phrase "Congress shall make no law concerning the establishment of religion" is unclear to you? That appears to be a pretty effective wall of seperation to me.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Chris the Chees I suggest you read Chivalry, Maurice Keen, (Yale, 1984), pp. 44-63 (ISBN 0-300-03360-5). To learn a brief history of Christianity, the Church and its involvement in chivalric ideals and practises. It would be a challenge to find a better catalogue of murder, rape, conquest and slavery. Of course I could name other books, featuring different examples across history, from the medieval period right up too the modern day, however I'm sure that single chapter should be enough.

To blame slavery on Christianity is just silly. Every religion not founded after 1850 supported slavery. Slavery has been a human evil from dawn of time and was only effectively abolished on any large scale in the mid 19th century. The abolition movement didn't exist in any real sense prior to the mid 18th century.

In the broader category of "murder, rape, conquest and slavery" the followers of the "Prince of Peace" have been guilty of horrible crimes, but regrettably so have the acolytes of most other faiths.

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: RickSp To blame slavery on Christianity is just silly. Every religion not founded after 1850 supported slavery. Slavery has been a human evil from dawn of time and was only effectively abolished on any large scale in the mid 19th century. The abolition movement didn't exist in any real sense prior to the mid 18th century. In the broader category of "murder, rape, conquest and slavery" the followers of the "Prince of Peace" have been guilty of horrible crimes, but regrettably so have the acolytes of most other faiths.

My Dear Rick, I never claimed that Christianity caused slavery, I said it is the greatest promoter of it. Two totally different concepts.

Every religion not founded after 1850 supported slavery.

A typical responce, it seams that because others were doing it, it is excusable. Personally I reject that argument.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Chris the Chees My Dear Rick, I never claimed that Christianity caused slavery, I said it is the greatest promoter of it. Two totally different concepts. Every religion not founded after 1850 supported slavery. A typical responce, it seams that because others were doing it, it is excusable. Personally I reject that argument.

You are amusing Chees. You reject an argument when I was not making an argument. I never suggested that slavery was ever "excuseable". I was pointing out a simple historic fact. Argue with history if you wish. Of course, claiming that "Christianity is the greatest promoter of slavery" suggests either an indifference to or ignorance of history, so maybe arguing with facts suits you. Enjoy yourself.

[Feefer]

Quote by: RickSp You are just making this up as you go along right? Wihout "freedom from religion" "freedom of religion" cannot exist. It is very simple. And whose Constitution are you claiming to have read? Where in the US Consitution can you find the word "God" or "Jesus"? What part of the phrase "Congress shall make no law concerning the establishment of religion" is unclear to you? That appears to be a pretty effective wall of seperation to me.

The FF had to give us freedom from any kind of state religeon in order to allow freedom of (choice of) religeon.

As i have stated many times. The seperation was not that the FF didnt like the church. It was a change to the way everyone else did things. The church could not have power because they would use that power in ways that fit their agenda (ironic, huh?)

[Feefer]

Quote by: Starboy feefer you are doing what Christians seem to do automatically. Just because someone uses the word god they automatically think that they must be talking about the Christian god (as if there is only one kind of that either). It would be one thing if all the founding fathers went on about Jesus, but they did not. Yes they talk about god but that doesn't mean that their concept of god is anything like your concept of god. For all you know it could be more like Einstein's concept of god. God is one of these meaningless words that people toss out to mollify all the different groups with their different concepts of god. Starboy

They are allowed the luxury of CHOICE. FREE-WILL. A (Christian) God given right. The Godi belive in and i belive the FF did too, would not force himself upon you. He'll let you pick whatever you like. The Bible says He is the beggining and the end, knows all, sees all, is all. He planned our lives back when he created us, he saw what he would want us to do, but then he gave us the freedom of choosing His way or our own.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Feefer They are allowed the luxury of CHOICE. FREE-WILL. A (Christian) God given right. The Godi belive in and i belive the FF did too, would not force himself upon you. He'll let you pick whatever you like. The Bible says He is the beggining and the end, knows all, sees all, is all. He planned our lives back when he created us, he saw what he would want us to do, but then he gave us the freedom of choosing His way or our own.

*WHOOSH*

We appear to be talking about two different things. You are still hung up on Christianity being about freedom. I think you missed that point I made earlier. Most people want what they consider to be freedom but the god of the bible is not exactly about freedom. Not even a little about freedom. Sure the god of the NT is more laid back than the god of the OT but it is still the offer you can't refuse and that is not an offer of freedom but more like extortion. It would be one thing if god said love me and I will give you great rewards. If it left it at that then it would not be extortion. It is when that god then lets you know that if you don’t then it will be hell to pay for eternity that it moves into the extortion category. And no one at the raw end of extortion thinks there is anything free about it. To them it is pure tyranny. Christianity may be about love but it is conditional love with terrible consequences if you don't accept it. This is extortion. Sorry but freedom is not a Christian value. It is an American value that some Christians appear to also value but not because of their Christianity but because they are Americans.

Starboy

[RickSp]

Quote by: Feefer The FF had to give us freedom from any kind of state religeon in order to allow freedom of (choice of) religeon. As i have stated many times. The seperation was not that the FF didnt like the church. It was a change to the way everyone else did things. The church could not have power because they would use that power in ways that fit their agenda (ironic, huh?)

OK, I can generally agree with that. So how is it that the First Amendment does not indeed create a wall of seperation between church and state? No one claims that the Founders were not Christians. It was extremely difficult to survive in the eighteen century colonies if not a Christian. Freedom of choice was hardly an option.

If you were the wrong sect in the wrong colony you were in trouble enough. Ethan Allen was driven out of Connecticut for questioning Jesus' divinity. Roger Williams was driven out of Massachussets as a heretic. Jefferson, who skated close to the edge, was far more critical of Christianity in private than he would admit in public and his public views got him into trouble.

[Feefer]

Quote by: RickSp OK, I can generally agree with that. So how is it that the First Amendment does not indeed create a wall of seperation between church and state?

The wall is not there because the way most people define the wall is to say that the FF didnt like church.

Quote by: RickSp No one claims that the Founders were not Christians. It was extremely difficult to survive in the eighteen century colonies if not a Christian. Freedom of choice was hardly an option.

Yes it was because pretty much, the entire nation was.

Quote by: RickSp If you were the wrong sect in the wrong colony you were in trouble enough. Ethan Allen was driven out of Connecticut for questioning Jesus' divinity. Roger Williams was driven out of Massachussets as a heretic. Jefferson, who skated close to the edge, was far more critical of Christianity in private than he would admit in public and his public views got him into trouble.

Roger Williams was a heretic. Ann Huchison, she was thrown out for hersey