Was America Founded Upon The Christian Faith And Religion?

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: tinybear They do if this nation was founded on the teachings of the Bible. We'd be the ones who are not entitled to change it.

The British empire was founded on slavery, conquest and the rape of small nations who could not resist.

Were we not entitled to change it?

Your point is flawed beyond repair. If something is obsolite, then it is time to change it.

[tinybear]

I'm not a Christian and, quite frankly, religion doesn't appeal to me, but I find it extremely interesting to hear you compare 'slavery, conquest and the rape of small nations' with Christianity. Would you like to elaborate on why and how they are comparable?

[RickSp]

Quote by: tinybear The First Amendment forbids the establishment of religion? Are you sure?

Come on. You do better than that. Read it. It is the first phrase. Not easy to miss.

[MrOtis]

Quote by: Starboy There were all sorts of people in the colonies at the time. They were the dumping grounds of the age. Religious zealots as well as the dregs of society were dumped there. There are many references in the writing of the founders to atheists. But do not believe me. If you look in their writing most of them lambasted Christians. For the core group of people whose ideas are foundation of the values of this country, their ideas were not Christian ideas, even if they included god. It was more the god of Voltaire then it was the god of Jesus. In fact Jefferson was disturbed enough about all the foolery and nonsense in the bible that he wrote his own version without all the foolery. If you want to know what he thought you ought to read what the man wrote.

You're right, all kinds of people made it over here. The question is what they used to justify their revolutionary new form of goverment: "That all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." That was Mr. Jefferson, of course.

Now, please note the following signers of the Constitution: Charles Pinckney and John Langdon—founders of the American Bible Society; James McHenry—founder of the Baltimore Bible Society; Rufus King—helped found a Bible society for Anglicans; Abraham Baldwin—a chaplain in the Revolution and considered the youngest theologian in America; Roger Sherman, William Samuel Johnson, John Dickinson, and Jacob Broom—also theological writers; James Wilson and William Patterson—placed on the Supreme Court by President George Washington, they had prayer over juries in the U. S. Supreme Court room; and the list could go on.

The vast majority of the framers of the Constitution and signers of the Declaration were Bible-believing, church-going Christians.

I never said that Paine did not believe in god. All I said that it was a Deist god. And I guess Paine was right and wrong. He was right that excluding god from science would result in a form of atheism. But he was wrong for insisting that science require god. I think that the history of science over the last two hundred years will indicate that explanations with the least god in them are the most powerful. Never said he didn't. What he didn't believe in was the god of Jesus.

He at least believed enough in the biblical description of God to believe that kids needed to be taught that He was the Creator of all things (and scientifically minded guy that I am, I'll side with Paine on that one). This is consistent with the belief of the framers that our rights as people were unalienable because they were granted by God.

I can never comprehend the thought processes of godbots. It is obvious that the Christians are monkeying in government because they want government to be god's enforcer. And yet they will recognize that one of our core values is freedom. If we are free then god is going to have to do its own enforcement and if god is not enforcing it then it must be A-Okay by god. They can't have it both ways. Either we have freedom or we must all be forced to obey god.

Guess what? I agree with you.

The fundamental flaw in your posts is a basic conflation. It is a very common conflation of our times. If someone says that they believe in god then ipso facto it must be the god that you believe in. Well golly, even today we know that there are radically different beliefs as to who and what god is and what it requires if anything from man. Starboy

Hey, that's two in a row! I don't for a minute believe that everybody who professes a belief in God is worshipping the same God I do.

However, for secularists to claim that faith in God had no role in the formation of this nation or its system of government is wishful thinking.

[Gorgo]

I think the statement that we are refuting was that this nation is "founded on the Christian religion."

Again, the Constitution which creates this country makes no mention of Jesus Christ.

Now, that the founders had all kinds of beliefs is another matter. If that's the case, then this nation was founded on slavery, on genocide, on imperialism on arrogance, on classism, and on sexism. Just because some of the founders had stupid ideas does not mean that we should continue those ideas. If they believed in gods or invisible rabbits, then isn't it about time we lost the need for that kind of thing?

[RickSp]

Quote by: MrOtis As much as I agree with you on the religious (and explicitly Christian) nature of the original settlers of New England, I think you'd get an argument from the Quakers of that era over how tolerant they were. Like any other human enterprise, the Puritans of Massachusetts didn't always live up to the ideal that they preached.

The folks who claim that "America was founded on Christian principles" tend to ignore history. Yes, most Americans were "Christian" in the broadest sense but were often in conflict, often physical conflict, with their "Christian" brethern of other sects.

The Puritans were still hanging Quakers in 1660. Most of the colonial period was a battle between various Christian sects as well as a larger struggle with the Church of England, the state church. The Rhode Island and Vermont colonies were both shaped, at least in part, by these struggles. Roger Williams was driven out of Massachusetts into Rhode Island because of his religious views just as Ethan Allen was forced to leave Connecticut for Vermont for his views. Add in the Great Awakening of 1750 which split apart even the established churches and the overall status of Christianity in the British colonies of North America was not one of unanimity but of conflict and flux. The Founders supported religious tolerance because they were surrounded by intolerance.

The Founding Fathers considered religion to be a highly personal matter which should not be dictated by the government. James Dosbon, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and their ilk seemed never to have learned this lesson..

[Starboy]

Quote by: MrOtis However, for secularists to claim that faith in God had no role in the formation of this nation or its system of government is wishful thinking.

I never made that claim nor am I aware that is a common claim of secularist. What I do see claimed by secularists very often is that the bible was not the catalyst of our nation. And by the way, thinking that god creating everything is not exactly an idea unique to Christians. I think that if you check just about every supernatural religion on the planet, past or present, they all thought such a thing. After all, what is the point of thinking there is a god if it plays no role in anything.

The other thing I want you to mull over regarding the role of religion in our government is that many of the founders were not mainstream Christians. That in that time they may indeed have felt similar pressures as is felt by atheists in this age of magical thinkers. And that because of this they prized the separation of church and state as much as atheists often do and pretty much for the same reasons.

Starboy

[MrOtis]

Quote by: Gorgo I think the statement that we are refuting was that this nation is "founded on the Christian religion."

The most successful and influential of the colonies, both economically and philosophically, were those founded as Christian colonies. The basis for protection of human rights, first codified in New England, is the God-given nature of those rights.

Just because some of the founders had stupid ideas does not mean that we should continue those ideas. If they believed in gods or invisible rabbits, then isn't it about time we lost the need for that kind of thing?

Stupid? I scored a 20 out of 21 on that quiz, and I believe in God. I daresay that the majority of the framers of the Constitution, most of whom were Christians, were better educated than you or I.

Presuming that they were stupid because they lived before us is arrogant.

[MrOtis]

Rick, you're absolutely right about the conflicts between various sects in the early days of this nation. That doesn't change history, though, and the evidence is that the majority of those involved in the formation of the country, and the principles on which they based the style of government and our system of justice, were firmly rooted in the Judeo-Christian morality of the Bible.

Please don't presume that Dobson, Falwell, and Robertson speak for me or the majority of Christians. I don't presume that Hitler, Stalin, or Mao spoke for atheists.

[Gorgo]

MrOtis, I said stupid ideas, not stupid people. Someone, as you well know, can be very bright but hold very stupid ideas. Many of our "founders" held very stupid ideas, like the idea that slavery was a good idea.

We all have stupid ideas. That's not an insult to anyone's intelligence.

[MrOtis]

Quote by: Starboy The other thing I want you to mull over regarding the role of religion in our government is that many of the founders were not mainstream Christians. That in that time they may indeed have felt similar pressures as is felt by atheists in this age of magical thinkers. And that because of this they prized the separation of church and state as much as atheists often do and pretty much for the same reasons.

Given the historical context in which the framers lived, I think your understanding of church-state separation is skewed. The framers wanted to prevent the state from creating a national church. I wholeheartedly agree with this. It was the mixing of church and state that began with Constantine that destroyed the Roman Catholic Church.

However, at the time the Constitution was drafted, a majority of the colonies still had religious tests for holding government office. Now, why would they draft a document that would suddenly make the majority of state constitutions unconstitutional?

The weight of evidence supports my understanding of history.

[MrOtis]

Quote by: Gorgo MrOtis, I said stupid ideas, not stupid people. Someone, as you well know, can be very bright but hold very stupid ideas. Many of our "founders" held very stupid ideas, like the idea that slavery was a good idea. We all have stupid ideas. That's not an insult to anyone's intelligence.

My bad. I made the assumption that stupid ideas = stupid people.

Good thing those Christian anti-slavery groups helped put an end to that stupid idea.

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: tinybear I'm not a Christian and, quite frankly, religion doesn't appeal to me, but I find it extremely interesting to hear you compare 'slavery, conquest and the rape of small nations' with Christianity. Would you like to elaborate on why and how they are comparable?

From a historical perspective, Christianity has been the biggest promoters of these acts .

However that was not my intention, my intention was to display that historical institutions values, are completely irrelevant to modern living. Modern organisations should not be run by the values of obsolite ideals, unless of course they are still relevant, and better ideals have not been formed.

[Gorgo]

Right. And good Christian people took part in slavery as well. As did a lot of other people, I'm sure.

Quote by: MrOtis My bad. I made the assumption that stupid ideas = stupid people. Good thing those Christian anti-slavery groups helped put an end to that stupid idea.

[MrOtis]

Quote by: Chris the Chees From a historical perspective, Christianity has been the biggest promoters of these acts . However that was not my intention, my intention was to display that historical institutions values, are completely irrelevant to modern living. Modern organisations should not be run by the values of obsolite ideals, unless of course they are still relevant, and better ideals have not been formed.

Whoa. Christianity the biggest promoter of slavery, conquest and the rape of small nations?

Which translation of the Bible do you read?

[Starboy]

Quote by: MrOtis However, at the time the Constitution was drafted, a majority of the colonies still had religious tests for holding government office. Now, why would they draft a document that would suddenly make the majority of state constitutions unconstitutional?

Because they were the victims of such tests and were forced to pretend a belief in a particular kind of god that they did not posses. From this perspective it was obvious to them that any government test or support of any kind of religion by government would always leave some group out and would encourage the tyranny of the majority.

The weight of evidence supports my understanding of history.

Perhaps it does, but exactly what your understanding of history could be is unclear to me.

Starboy

[Feefer]

Quote by: Starboy We are a sovereign nation because we desired freedom. Freedom is not a Christian value. Obedience is a Christian value. Starboy

Freedom is a Christian value

[MrOtis]

Quote by: Starboy Because they were the victims of such tests and were forced to pretend a belief in a particular kind of god that they did not posses. From this perspective it was obvious to them that any government test or support of any kind of religion by government would always leave some group out and would encourage the tyranny of the majority.

Now, think about the logic of that. In order for the Constitution to be accepted, it had to be voted on and approved by the states.

[RickSp]

Quote by: MrOtis Rick, you're absolutely right about the conflicts between various sects in the early days of this nation. That doesn't change history, though, and the evidence is that the majority of those involved in the formation of the country, and the principles on which they based the style of government and our system of justice, were firmly rooted in the Judeo-Christian morality of the Bible.

To claim that the republic was based on Christianity or the Bible is simply innaccurate. The Founders were all Christians of one stripe or another, as were the vast majority of the colonial Americans. That being said, aside from the obvious European heritage which culturally was Judeo-Christian, our "style of government and system of justice", as you put it, have absolutely nothing to do with the Bible or a specifically Judeo-Christian morality. They have everything to do with English common law, the English constitution, and the works of John Locke, Rouseau and the other rationalists of the Enlightenment. To claim otherwise is to distort history.

Quote by: MrOtis Please don't presume that Dobson, Falwell, and Robertson speak for me or the majority of Christians. I don't presume that Hitler, Stalin, or Mao spoke for atheists.

I would hardly put Dobson or Falwell in the same category as Stalin or Mao. And Hitler, well, Hitler was a Christian. He had been an alter boy, as a matter of fact, and considered himself a Catholic to the day he died.

Nazi Germany is an interesting example of the intermingling of church and state:

Writing for Free Inquiry, John Patrick Michael Murphy explained: "Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. It was a real Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church and blindly followed all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical. Hitler, like some of the today's politicians and preachers, politicized "family values." He liked corporal punishment in home and school. Jesus prayers became mandatory in all schools under his administration. While abortion was illegal in pre-Hitler Germany, he took it to new depths of enforcement, requiring all doctors to report to the government the circumstances of all miscarriages. He openly despised homosexuality and criminalized it."

The Founders were right in seperating church and state.

[Feefer]

Quote by: Starboy Which god?

The God of the Judeo-Christian belief system. Creator, Jesus, etc

Quote by: Starboy And you think god is in the war blessing business?

Yes, I do, I belive that he will bless the plans of a God-Respecting person or president.

Quote by: Starboy Do anything you like. But what bothers me about all this is that weak minded people think that just because they have prayed for god’s assistance that this now makes it right.

First off, I am not weak-minded. I know that God will assist in anyone's prayers that are truly searching for him. I can say that with personal experience when i was ready to walk away from God.




[quote=Starboy]Yes, but what exactly does he believe in? From what I can tell it is, 'might makes right, I am never wrong there for if you disagree with me you are wrong. If you are not with me then you are against me.'[quote=Starboy] He belives in God. The Creator, made everything, like.power to do what he needs to. Loves those who belive in him and wishes others (like you) would, so that he could show them what he's really

I[quote=Starboy]f I were a Christians Bush would be an excellent example of why I would not want my religion involved in government.[quote=Starboy] So, you'd rather have a president that has sex and drinks and all that?

Quote by: Starboy You assume that all people are perfect and that the only way that god can effect change is through the government. What does god need with a government?

I know people arent perfect. I dont claim to be. He can effect change in any way he likes. Government, people, churches, whatever.