Was America Founded Upon The Christian Faith And Religion?

[Feefer]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Christians say all kinds of illogical things, but that doesn't mean they should always get their way.

Milton, being the Christian that I am and having parents that are pastors (www.trinityriverlife.com). I know that what I belive and what I say is NOT illogical. Christians are not mental-help projects.

Quote by: Milton Bradley I thought to be a good Christian, you were to turn the other cheek, forgive, and forget, not involve yourself with politics, but don't take my word for it, I only studied their bible.

WRONG. We have a president currently in our White House that is a Christian. It says no-where in the Bible are we not to be involved in politics. You could not truly have studied the Bible and understood it because you dont read it with an open mind, you read it with a thought of "how can I prove them wrong"

Quote by: Milton Bradley Where in the bible does it say to legislate your opposition into a corner?

It doesnt say one way or another. I dont belive we're in a corner.

[MrOtis]

Quote by: Gorgo I think you both need to take the quizzes about the Bible and the separation of church and state: http://www.ffrf.org/quiz/

I scored 20 out of 21. Do you believe me now?

[Starboy]

Quote by: tinybear (Starboy will probably have a fit when he sees this). :)

I have no idea why you would think this, but no problem. If you don't want me to post on one of your threads all you have to do is ask.

Starboy

[RickSp]

The intent of the Founders was clear. Not only was the word "God" never used in the Constitution, but the first paragraph of the First Amendment forbids the establishment of religion. The Founding Fathers understood that freedom of religion requires freedom from religion.

The fundamentalists want to overturn this basic principle of the American revolution so that they can use the power of the state to enforce their specific religious viewpoint on each of us. I object to calling these people "Christians" as they represent only a narrow segment of American Christianity. I understand that they consider themselves to be the only "true" Christians, which speaks volumes in its own right.

Religious tolerance is fundamentally American regardless of what the fundamentalists may rant.

[Feefer]

Quote by: RickSp The Founding Fathers understood that freedom of religion requires freedom from religion.

Yes, it does. In that freedom FROM, they meant that they would not force a church upon us but would leave it open for us to choose.

Quote by: RickSp The fundamentalists want to overturn this basic principle of the American revolution so that they can use the power of the state to enforce their specific religious viewpoint on each of us.

Yes, that was the plan of early churches, for them to have all power.

Quote by: RickSp I object to calling these people "Christians" as they represent only a narrow segment of American Christianity.

They do only represnt a small segment of us, but still as Christ-Folowers, claim the title Christ-ians.
I also belive that there are many claimed christians that dont follow God like he asks, they just use it for when its convenient.


Religious tolerance is fundamentally American regardless of what the fundamentalists may rant.[/quote] Yup!

[Starboy]

Quote by: Feefer [CENTER]The Founding Fathers had quite a few things to say on this issue.[/CENTER] It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship. John Adams, Thoughts on Government, 1776 Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth-that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the Ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid?" Benjamin Franklin, To Colleagues at the Constitutional Convention Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever. Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 18, 1781 I have often expressed my sentiments, that every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience. George Washington, letter to the General Committee of the United Baptist Churches in Virginia, May, 1789 The FF went to Seperation of Chuch and State, not because they didnt like church, but because they didnt want a state church. They saw what happened with the other contries, all of the church being the leaders and you couldnt vote if you didnt go to church...etc. The FF didnt like that, they wanted FREEDOM.

What you seem to ignore is that many of the founding fathers were Deists. When they spoke of god they were not talking about the god of Jesus but the god of Thomas Paine. And most of them shared Mr. Paine's disdain for Christians, as do I.

For every quote you can show me for what some founder said about god I can show you several quotes on what they privately thought about Christians and how they were adamant that religion and government were to be very separate. What I don't understand is why the need to lie about the importance of religion in government. Why would religion want anything to do with government? Are they now eager to have government certified ministers? Is it now important that they bless wars? Why in the word would any religion wish to be associated with any government? I can understand why a politician would want to court religion so that they can get elected but why would anyone that actually believed in the sacredness of their religion even consider voting for such a person? What does god need with a government?

Starboy

[ericsp23]

Many of the original settlers of this country were deeply religious people. I think this is why the American people are and always have been fairly religious, more so than many other Western countries for sure. But those original settlers came here because they were persecuted in their countries of origin for their religious beliefs. They knew first hand the dangers of state sponsored religion, and they fought it in their home countries, and when they came here, they fought it here as well. They had no desire to force their religious beliefs on others, they only wanted to be allowed to practice their religion in their own way in peace. Of course they would try to convince others that their way was the correct way, but they did not want anyone forced to worship God in a way they did not agree with. That is why, seperation of church and state exists in this country.

[Feefer]

Quote by: Starboy What you seem to ignore is that many of the founding fathers were Deists. When they spoke of god they were not talking about the god of Jesus but the god of Thomas Paine. And most of them shared Mr. Paine's disdain for Christians, as do I.

Ben Franklin could not have been a diest because that would deny his quote of God dealing in the affairs of men. Which the deists reject.

Quote by: Starboy For every quote you can show me for what some founder said about god I can show you several quotes on what they privately thought about Christians and how they were adamant that religion and government were to be very separate..

I wont drag you thru that process

Quote by: Starboy Why would religion want anything to do with government?

Its not so much the Government, its the people who are IN the government. If they belive and follow the things God has set forth, then the nation is going to as well, its a law of leadership principals.

Quote by: Starboy Are they now eager to have government certified ministers?

No, but we still do use them in wars.

Quote by: Starboy Is it now important that they bless wars?

As i said above, thats what the minister is there for. And yes, it would be good, like George Washington did, to pray forour troops and their protection. Whatever the outcome.

Quote by: Starboy Why in the word would any religion wish to be associated with any government?

Again, Its not so much the Government, its the people who are IN the government. If they belive and follow the things God has set forth, then the nation is going to as well, its a law of leadership principals.

Quote by: Starboy I can understand why a politician would want to court religion so that they can get elected but why would anyone that actually believed in the sacredness of their religion even consider voting for such a person?

Well, hes usually in it for the vote. President Bush however, is a true beliver.

Quote by: Starboy What does god need with a government?

[b] He wants the PEOPLE in the government, so that if they followed him, so would the country.[/B}

[MrOtis]

While there are some Christians who may wish to see a theocracy, thinking Christians understand that mixing government into faith is a bad idea. The Pilgrims and Puritans understood this.

In fact, it was forbidden for ministers in the early Massachusetts colony to run for government office. Not because they might try to force their beliefs on people, but because their responsibilities as preachers of the gospel were considered too important to distract them with the mundane affairs of maintaining social order.

We would do well to learn from their example.

Starboy, while it's undeniable that many of the founding fathers were deists, it doesn't change the fact that they believed in God, and that the foundation of American independence is a belief in God. Our rights are inalienable because they were endowed by our Creator.

That's why we are a sovereign nation today rather than a colony of England.

[tinybear]

Quote by: RickSp The intent of the Founders was clear. Not only was the word "God" never used in the Constitution, but the first paragraph of the First Amendment forbids the establishment of religion.

The First Amendment forbids the establishment of religion? Are you sure?

[MrOtis]

Quote by: ericsp23 Many of the original settlers of this country were deeply religious people. I think this is why the American people are and always have been fairly religious, more so than many other Western countries for sure. But those original settlers came here because they were persecuted in their countries of origin for their religious beliefs. They knew first hand the dangers of state sponsored religion, and they fought it in their home countries, and when they came here, they fought it here as well. They had no desire to force their religious beliefs on others, they only wanted to be allowed to practice their religion in their own way in peace.

As much as I agree with you on the religious (and explicitly Christian) nature of the original settlers of New England, I think you'd get an argument from the Quakers of that era over how tolerant they were. Like any other human enterprise, the Puritans of Massachusetts didn't always live up to the ideal that they preached.

[tinybear]

Quote by: Starboy I have no idea why you would think this, but no problem. If you don't want me to post on one of your threads all you have to do is ask. Starboy

Don't be silly. Anyone can post on any thread he/she likes. This is America, not China.

[Feefer]

Quote by: ericsp23 They had no desire to force their religious beliefs on others, they only wanted to be allowed to practice their religion in their own way in peace. Of course they would try to convince others that their way was the correct way, but they did not want anyone forced to worship God in a way they did not agree with. That is why, seperation of church and state exists in this country.

No, they didnt, just like God doesnt force himself on us, its a choice.

[Starboy]

Quote by: MrOtis ]Starboy, while it's undeniable that many of the founding fathers were deists, it doesn't change the fact that they believed in God, and that the foundation of American independence is a belief in God. Our rights are inalienable because they were endowed by our Creator.

I will agree that most if not all believed in "god". But it is arrogance on your part to think that their concept of god has anything to do with a Christian’s concept. They were men of the age of reason, and god was more like a personification of nature. Nature was a reflection of god and since it was man's nature to wish liberty then they assumed that it was gods will that men be free.

But in any case people who think that the founders reference to god in their writings has anything at all to do with any religious concept of god are just ignorant. I suggest they read "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine to get a better idea of what they thought when they used the term god.

That's why we are a sovereign nation today rather than a colony of England.

We are a sovereign nation because we desired freedom. Freedom is not a Christian value. Obedience is a Christian value.

Starboy

[MrOtis]

Quote by: tinybear The First Amendment forbids the establishment of religion? Are you sure?

It forbids Congress to establish a religion. There was a long period of civil war between the Puritans and the government in England in the 17th century, most of which stemmed from the king being the official head of the Church of England--sort of a king/pope. Many of the early settlers in Massachusetts left England before the revolution led by Oliver Cromwell in the 1640s.

The framers of the Constitution didn't want to see a Church of the United States, ever. That's the reason for the First Amendment--not banning prayer at high school football games.

[tinybear]

You'd have to read the First Amendment in its entirety and in the proper context. The goal of the First Amendment was to protect religious expression, not restrict it. It states, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” Government is restricted here and not the people.

[Catch 22]

Well, hes usually in it for the vote. President Bush however, is a true beliver

And your evidence is? If we take Christ’s teachings at face value bush is anything but a believer. The man supports the rich over the poor, prosecutes aggressive wars which serve no purpose and seems to think that crumbling schoolhouses is OK. Where’s the Christian moral in that bud? To be frank I think you’re a bit naïve to think that any politician, especially the most powerful man in the world, has got the moral fortitude to be a true Christian believer.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Feefer Ben Franklin could not have been a diest because that would deny his quote of God dealing in the affairs of men. Which the deists reject.

Where do you get this? For a deist god was nature. For Ben to think that nature didn't have an effect on the affairs of men would be nonsense. Ben was a scientist after all. Their concept of god would be closer to Einstein’s then it would be to even the most liberal Christian.

Its not so much the Government, its the people who are IN the government. If they belive and follow the things God has set forth, then the nation is going to as well, its a law of leadership principals.

Which god?

No, but we still do use them in wars.

And you think god is in the war blessing business?

As i said above, thats what the minister is there for. And yes, it would be good, like George Washington did, to pray forour troops and their protection. Whatever the outcome.

Do anything you like. But what bothers me about all this is that weak minded people think that just because they have prayed for god’s assistance that this now makes it right.

Again, Its not so much the Government, its the people who are IN the government. If they belive and follow the things God has set forth, then the nation is going to as well, its a law of leadership principals.

Which god?

Well, hes usually in it for the vote. President Bush however, is a true beliver.

Yes, but what exactly does he believe in? From what I can tell it is, 'might makes right, I am never wrong there for if you disagree with me you are wrong. If you are not with me then you are against me.'

If I were a Christians Bush would be an excellent example of why I would not want my religion involved in government.

[b] He wants the PEOPLE in the government, so that if they followed him, so would the country.[/B}

You assume that all people are perfect and that the only way that god can effect change is through the government. What does god need with a government?

Starboy

[MrOtis]

Quote by: Starboy I will agree that most if not all believed in "god". But it is arrogance on your part to think that their concept of god has anything to do with a Christian’s concept. They were men of the age of reason, and god was more like a personification of nature. Nature was a reflection of god and since it was man's nature to wish liberty then they assumed that it was gods will that men be free.

From what would they draw such a conclusion? Never before in history had a government been formed with the consent of the governed. Well, except in the New England colonies--which were explicitly Christian.

But in any case people who think that the founders reference to god in their writings has anything at all to do with any religious concept of god are just ignorant. I suggest they read "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine to get a better idea of what they thought when they used the term god.

Paine also wrote "The Study of God," in which he asserts that it is "the error of schools" to teach sciences without "reference to the Being who is author of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin." He laments that "the evil that has resulted from the error of the schools in teaching [science without God] has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism."

Sounds to me as though he not only believed in God, he believed in a reality beyond the plane of our physical existence.

We are a sovereign nation because we desired freedom. Freedom is not a Christian value. Obedience is a Christian value.

You're partly right. Obedience to God is a Christian value. And we're free because God endowed each of us with the rights to life, liberty, and property, just as Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence.

[Starboy]

Quote by: MrOtis From what would they draw such a conclusion? Never before in history had a government been formed with the consent of the governed. Well, except in the New England colonies--which were explicitly Christian.

There were all sorts of people in the colonies at the time. They were the dumping grounds of the age. Religious zealots as well as the dregs of society were dumped there. There are many references in the writing of the founders to atheists. But do not believe me. If you look in their writing most of them lambasted Christians. For the core group of people whose ideas are foundation of the values of this country, their ideas were not Christian ideas, even if they included god. It was more the god of Voltaire then it was the god of Jesus. In fact Jefferson was disturbed enough about all the foolery and nonsense in the bible that he wrote his own version without all the foolery. If you want to know what he thought you ought to read what the man wrote.

Paine also wrote "The Study of God," in which he asserts that it is "the error of schools" to teach sciences without "reference to the Being who is author of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin." He laments that "the evil that has resulted from the error of the schools in teaching [science without God] has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism."

I never said that Paine did not believe in god. All I said that it was a Deist god. And I guess Paine was right and wrong. He was right that excluding god from science would result in a form of atheism. But he was wrong for insisting that science require god. I think that the history of science over the last two hundred years will indicate that explanations with the least god in them are the most powerful.

Sounds to me as though he not only believed in God, he believed in a reality beyond the plane of our physical existence.

Never said he didn't. What he didn't believe in was the god of Jesus.

You're partly right. Obedience to God is a Christian value. And we're free because God endowed each of us with the rights to life, liberty, and property, just as Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence.

I can never comprehend the thought processes of godbots. It is obvious that the Christians are monkeying in government because they want government to be god's enforcer. And yet they will recognize that one of our core values is freedom. If we are free then god is going to have to do its own enforcement and if god is not enforcing it then it must be A-Okay by god. They can't have it both ways. Either we have freedom or we must all be forced to obey god.

The fundamental flaw in your posts is a basic conflation. It is a very common conflation of our times. If someone says that they believe in god then ipso facto it must be the god that you believe in. Well golly, even today we know that there are radically different beliefs as to who and what god is and what it requires if anything from man.

Starboy