Consciousness

[rez]

I would like to first start off by saying I feel Starboy (who has posted many times in the philosophy forum) shares the exact same ideas as me, yet it seems, to me, he does not feel the same way.

As you all can see, a lot of the topics in the philosophy forum are about reality. From the Realm of the Senses to Reality as a belief and Quantum Theory, we all seem to be sharing the will to discover the unknown only to be brought back to Starboys "real reality" that these topics are developed from magical thinking.

I feel that the definition and description of reality has been loosely interoperated by many people. I feel that the topic of reality is complex and hard to interrupt because its something that humans feel needs no real explanation. Dictionary.com defines reality as " The quality or state of being actual or true." How can any human argue anything that’s actual and true?

Another aspect that involves the discussion of reality is consciousness, which is what my main idea is. Consciousness according to psychologists is "our awareness of ourselves and our environment." What do you guys feel this means? I think this is were a lot of people have different explanations. I am not articulate with words, so it is hard for me to explain what I feel consciousness actually is, so I will use imagery.

I am going to refer to living organisms such as animals and bacteria not including humans because as you all know we are different. This difference starts with the awareness of reality. Imagine what goes through a deer’s mind. The deer doesn’t say "I am hungry and want to eat does it? That would be what we humans would do, but instead a deer may have a sort of a stress in its brain telling it to eat having no awareness of itself and the environment.

Before YOU were born what were you thinking? What was going on? Describe what it was like in your mothers womb...no human actually can..wheres the description? I came up with - nothingness. Try comparing that nothingness as a fetus with the brain of a deer, only the deer has the stresses of staying alive. The deer has no perception of reality, but humans do, where does this awareness come from?

Evolutionary Theory states that life evolved from a single living organism. Hard to understand, but what I know is that bacteria started sharing genes forming new complex beings. (I do not know much about the transition from bacteria to sea creatures)

It seems as though the basic blueprints can shape something as complex as the human mind only that it takes billions of years for it to work out. I fear to ask the question "what do bacteria think and feel?" But I am inclined to restate that they feel what you felt when you were in your mothers womb - nothingness. I can find many ways in which blueprints can complete something bigger and more complex, such as a blueprint for a house or any other construction. Another example I have in mind has to deal with something I need help in.

How exactly does the internet work? The internet on dictionary.com is defined as "protocols to facilitate data transmission and exchange" This definition reminds me of what I was discussing earlier in this post. What exactly is protocols and data transmission? TO ME the internet is a visual concept. I see the desktop and the icons and the wonderfully paid logo of volconvo, but what is it really? I need help with this...In lay mens terms is the internet just a electrical current running through wires that has a human designed visual interface? Basically is the simple blueprint the electric energy and the visual interface the consciousness? My belief is yes.....because if I ask the question "what does the electrical current running through my Ethernet wire think and feel" I come up with the answer - nothingness...

The biggest distinction I have made in this post is between nothingness and consciousness. Atheists feel that when you die you experience nothingness. In my mind, asking the question "what happens after you die" is funny because the answer is almost as if you don’t die, the usual answers are earthly. Where do you actually go when you die? Up or Down? do you stand on clouds? Do you see all the people who died? When god judges you does he point a human finger at you? Did god go through the same evolutionary process as humans?

In my opinion atheists are correct - when your brain stops working, your consciousness shuts down. You experience nothingness just like a deer, a fetus, bacteria, and the electrical current running through your Ethernet cable. The only difference between me and atheists though is my appreciate for human advancement. It is through human consciousness that we can change how we view reality. No, its not a magical change of reality, but a realistic one.....the future...I do not know what it holds and either do YOU. If you could go back in time and tell Jesus that you can fly in the air via a airplane he would think you were crazy. However, you have science to tell you how a plane can fly, so in your world its not crazy. If I jump off a building I know I cant fly, but in the future could there be science to tell me realistic facts that I can? Bill Hicks said "evolution didn’t end with humans growing thumbs" I do not know how magical that sounds, but I don’t see science disagreeing.

The connection between nothingness and consciousness is beautiful because its almost like humans are given the simple blueprints to turn nothing into something. Do what you want with your awareness of reality, but don’t just conclude the story, the universe is not going to be collapsing on itself any time soon. There is a lot to be discovered.....


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My post lacks a lot of stuff, its a rough draft....When responses start to formulate I will make the proper adjustments because I feel that it is extremly important to take a trip into someone elses perspective. So....start sharing your opinions.....

[Starboy]

Quote by: rez As you all can see, a lot of the topics in the philosophy forum are about reality. From the Realm of the Senses to Reality as a belief and Quantum Theory, we all seem to be sharing the will to discover the unknown only to be brought back to Starboys "real reality" that these topics are developed from magical thinking.

Magical thinking is nothing more than an unrecognized double standard. It typically is seen in selective recollection. People remember the confirming instances but tend to ignore the disconfirming instances. We do this because it is an adaptation. If you are a hunter/gatherer your brain will form connections to positive outcomes. Because your brain does this automatically, as it does for most animals, you give more weight to the positive outcomes than you do to the negative outcomes. In the case of hunting and gathering it is a strategy that in the long term will pay off. In the case of exploring and explaining reality it is a terrible strategy. If your goal is to describe as much as possible then explanations must explain all outcomes, not just the ones that you felt were positive.

I feel that the definition and description of reality has been loosely interoperated by many people. I feel that the topic of reality is complex and hard to interrupt because its something that humans feel needs no real explanation. Dictionary.com defines reality as " The quality or state of being actual or true." How can any human argue anything that’s actual and true?

I would take it a step further. I would say that we do not know reality. That the endeavor of science is trying to figure out what it is. That being said we may never know reality. In fact we may know close to nothing about reality. What amazes me is that we have been able to figure anything about it at all.

Another aspect that involves the discussion of reality is consciousness, which is what my main idea is. Consciousness according to psychologists is "our awareness of ourselves and our environment." What do you guys feel this means? I think this is were a lot of people have different explanations. I am not articulate with words, so it is hard for me to explain what I feel consciousness actually is, so I will use imagery. I am going to refer to living organisms such as animals and bacteria not including humans because as you all know we are different. This difference starts with the awareness of reality. Imagine what goes through a deer’s mind. The deer doesn’t say "I am hungry and want to eat does it? That would be what we humans would do, but instead a deer may have a sort of a stress in its brain telling it to eat having no awareness of itself and the environment.

Humans have the same sort of stress. They also act on it. I don't see anything significantly different about other than a human can verbalize it. In any case there are other animals that we have taught to verbalize such things, such as apes, chimps, monkeys and dolphins. Before we taught them language did they not have consciousness? And now that they have language they suddenly have consciousness? I think you are conflating consciousness and language. It is easy to do because in this forum, in order to communicate what is in your consciousness you must use language.

Before YOU were born what were you thinking? What was going on? Describe what it was like in your mothers womb...no human actually can..wheres the description? I came up with - nothingness. Try comparing that nothingness as a fetus with the brain of a deer, only the deer has the stresses of staying alive. The deer has no perception of reality, but humans do, where does this awareness come from?

I disagree. I do not think that the difference between animals and humans is some giant discontinuity. If we are the product of evolution then our differences are across a range. That is how evolutions works. There is not one huge change but a very large number of small changes and along the way various species come to be.

Evolutionary Theory states that life evolved from a single living organism. Hard to understand, but what I know is that bacteria started sharing genes forming new complex beings. (I do not know much about the transition from bacteria to sea creatures)

ToE actually doesn't say much about how the first life came to be or how it initially evolved. In fact the evidence in the biota indicates that there may have been several precursors that formed about the same time. Anyway it is hard to say. All that is left from that beginning time are the genes in all the biota that we have discovered and sequenced.

It seems as though the basic blueprints can shape something as complex as the human mind only that it takes billions of years for it to work out. I fear to ask the question "what do bacteria think and feel?" But I am inclined to restate that they feel what you felt when you were in your mothers womb - nothingness. I can find many ways in which blueprints can complete something bigger and more complex, such as a blueprint for a house or any other construction. Another example I have in mind has to deal with something I need help in.

You assume that there were a set of basic blue prints. Blue prints imply that there was a goal in mind. For some reason we humans arrogantly think we are the goal.

How exactly does the internet work? The internet on dictionary.com is defined as "protocols to facilitate data transmission and exchange" This definition reminds me of what I was discussing earlier in this post. What exactly is protocols and data transmission? TO ME the internet is a visual concept. I see the desktop and the icons and the wonderfully paid logo of volconvo, but what is it really? I need help with this...In lay mens terms is the internet just a electrical current running through wires that has a human designed visual interface? Basically is the simple blueprint the electric energy and the visual interface the consciousness? My belief is yes.....because if I ask the question "what does the electrical current running through my Ethernet wire think and feel" I come up with the answer - nothingness...

That is a different discussion but I assure you that the internet is as real as the telephone network. In fact most of the internet is run over phone networks. You could say that it is a kind of phone network for computers. I think I understand what you mean when you use the term "blue print". What you mean is "organization". And it amazes you as to how things can be self organizing. Like life, or intelligence or apparently the internet.

The biggest distinction I have made in this post is between nothingness and consciousness. Atheists feel that when you die you experience nothingness. In my mind, asking the question "what happens after you die" is funny because the answer is almost as if you don’t die, the usual answers are earthly. Where do you actually go when you die? Up or Down? do you stand on clouds? Do you see all the people who died? When god judges you does he point a human finger at you? Did god go through the same evolutionary process as humans? In my opinion atheists are correct - when your brain stops working, your consciousness shuts down. You experience nothingness just like a deer, a fetus, bacteria, and the electrical current running through your Ethernet cable. The only difference between me and atheists though is my appreciate for human advancement. It is through human consciousness that we can change how we view reality. No, its not a magical change of reality, but a realistic one.....the future...I do not know what it holds and either do YOU. If you could go back in time and tell Jesus that you can fly in the air via a airplane he would think you were crazy. However, you have science to tell you how a plane can fly, so in your world its not crazy. If I jump off a building I know I cant fly, but in the future could there be science to tell me realistic facts that I can? Bill Hicks said "evolution didn’t end with humans growing thumbs" I do not know how magical that sounds, but I don’t see science disagreeing.

As I have said before. There is nothing wrong with speculation, just don't expect people to take you seriously. In the speculation game there have been an overwhelmingly large number that got it wrong compared to those that got it right. But I am not against speculation. Speculate away, but don't expect me or anyone else to take you seriously unless you have something real to show for it. BTW I also speculate. I do it all the time. I only talk about it when it looks like I have something real to show for it. It makes people think that I am a lot smarter than I am.

The connection between nothingness and consciousness is beautiful because its almost like humans are given the simple blueprints to turn nothing into something. Do what you want with your awareness of reality, but don’t just conclude the story, the universe is not going to be collapsing on itself any time soon. There is a lot to be discovered.....

The nothingness is an illusion. What we call nothingness is just a process that has come to an end. But all the energy and bits of matter are still there and all the underlying processes are still in play, it is just that our little piece of the universe of biochemistry has stopped reacting. And mostly for the same reasons that most other processes stop. They either use up the available energy differential, get gummed up with byproducts or contaminants, suffer accumulated damage over time, or a catastrophic external event gets them. This goes for the sun, a cell or us.

Starboy

[RingingSword]

rez,

Hearty greetings fellow thought-adventurer! May your mind always be open, alert and interested. A theoretician’s path is filled with bucking broncos of wild, unpolished ideas. The ride will be violent, so prepare to get thrown hard. For every would-be chronicler of new visions there stand ten stern guardians of convention. Their job is akin to gravity; they will pull you to the ground unless your wings are relentlessly airborne. Once you are aloft, you must stare down truth, demanding that she yield up heretofore unseen nuggets. When you return to terra firma, with a mother lode of gleaming metal clutched within your bloody talons, the masses will just a soon mock and jeer as honor you. So steel yourself to the near-certainty of looking like a fool, and most especially when you succeed, for nothing looks as foolish as the newly-minted truth. Even so, it’s great fun tearing wide rents in the painted curtain of received-wisdom. Once you’re on the hunt for something big, you’ll laugh at the world’s heat ‘n serve sarcasm. The real enemy is time; you don’t have enough of it, so overextend yourself. Finally, take a page from the journal of Cosmo Brown and tell them a story so good it makes them leap out of and back into their own skins.

[rez]

Quote by: Starboy Magical thinking is nothing more than an unrecognized double standard. It typically is seen in selective recollection. People remember the confirming instances but tend to ignore the disconfirming instances. We do this because it is an adaptation. If you are a hunter/gatherer your brain will form connections to positive outcomes. Because your brain does this automatically, as it does for most animals, you give more weight to the positive outcomes than you do to the negative outcomes. In the case of hunting and gathering it is a strategy that in the long term will pay off. In the case of exploring and explaining reality it is a terrible strategy. If your goal is to describe as much as possible then explanations must explain all outcomes, not just the ones that you felt were positive.

This defines your opinion about philosophy/reality/religion because you associate people who study these things to have a happy interpretation of the world. I assure you I am trying to find ANSWERS of the unknown. I am thinking about all possibilities and not just happy ones.

Quote by: Starboy Humans have the same sort of stress. They also act on it. I don't see anything significantly different about other than a human can verbalize it. In any case there are other animals that we have taught to verbalize such things, such as apes, chimps, monkeys and dolphins. Before we taught them language did they not have consciousness? And now that they have language they suddenly have consciousness? I think you are conflating consciousness and language. It is easy to do because in this forum, in order to communicate what is in your consciousness you must use language.

Yeah I should of added that humans have the same stress, but what I was trying to get at was how we view reality. I see a brown deer with black dots and little horns eating leaves off the ground. What does a deer see though? Green and black? an unconscious mind walking around eating something that stimulates their brain?

Have you ever been drunk to the point where you are doing things, but have no recollection of actually doing them? its a blank nothingness, yet you were dancing around acting like a jackass...

Quote by: Starboy I disagree. I do not think that the difference between animals and humans is some giant discontinuity. If we are the product of evolution then our differences are across a range. That is how evolutions works. There is not one huge change but a very large number of small changes and along the way various species come to be..

What do you mean giant discontinuity? I am simply stating Animals/Bacteria/Genes/Nur are unaware of reality where as humans are aware.

Quote by: Starboy You assume that there were a set of basic blue prints. Blue prints imply that there was a goal in mind. For some reason we humans arrogantly think we are the goal..

The point of my idea about blue prints is this. A million years in the future humans will have discovered A LOT, right? But will they discover EVERYTHING? My theory would be that as long as the human mind is conscious there will be no limitations to the universe. As the human mind expands so does the concept of the universe...... all the discoveries in science are the human understandings of the environment.

Quote by: Starboy That is a different discussion but I assure you that the internet is as real as the telephone network. In fact most of the internet is run over phone networks. You could say that it is a kind of phone network for computers. I think I understand what you mean when you use the term "blue print". What you mean is "organization". And it amazes you as to how things can be self organizing. Like life, or intelligence or apparently the internet..

I know the internet connection is REAL. I am saying without the internet connection there is no visual interface. The blue print is the basic construction of the internet (electrical currents) it has no consciousness - the electrical current experiences nothingness, however, could the visual aspect of the internet be equal to human consciousness?
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imagine that the line leading to the rectangle is the electrical connection.....and the rectangle is the monitor that produces pictures. The electrical current has no consciousness, its simply just an electrical current, but the rectangular monitor produces pictures just as Axons and dendrites in your brain send and receives information producing............awareness ..your consciousness......your reality....

Quote by: Starboy The nothingness is an illusion. What we call nothingness is just a process that has come to an end. But all the energy and bits of matter are still there and all the underlying processes are still in play, it is just that our little piece of the universe of biochemistry has stopped reacting. And mostly for the same reasons that most other processes stop. They either use up the available energy differential, get gummed up with byproducts or contaminants, suffer accumulated damage over time, or a catastrophic external event gets them. This goes for the sun, a cell or us.

What do you mean nothingness is an illusion?

You say when you die all the matter in the universe still exists........."when I die the sun is still there..."

Lets put all After life opinions aside and simply say when a human dies they shut off. If you say this then you are saying a human goes from having a reality that has matter cause/effect, time/space, language, genes, bacteria etc..to having NOTHINGNESS.......but lets take into account evolution and the deer.

Lets take the Hominid species for example.....millions of years ago their awareness of reality was small...to say what they experienced is speculation....just like when I described what a deer experiences. My evidence is that I am different then a homo erectus which is I (the human) have a higher developed consciousness then the homo erectus (human/beast.....whatever you should call it)

So as the development of human consciousness grows so does our universe. If a human were to discover everything about the universe would it be like a person trapped in a box? Meaning if I discover everything about the universe and can no longer discover, am I not trapped in a box? A box that may have something on the outside of it, in which I could discover MORE.

Starboy says the sun still exists after I die, of course it does, but what does that have to do with anything? I am dead.......nothing exists to me, but to conscious human beings everything exists. You only know the sun exists after your death because you were alive to know what the sun was all about.

Starboy however old you are, death will come, yet you are unaware of many things in the universe. these things do not exist in your reality. it doesn’t mean it wont in a generation a million years from now will it?

It seems as if there is no happy ending to my theory, I think I am concluding that true reality only exists after death. Before death the humans who are conscious will continue the discovery of reality, but the human that is dead is in the real reality.......nothingness because its the only consistent reality......there is no change.....no awareness to know change....

I will leave off with Starboy because like I said before – we agree.

Quote by: Starboy I would take it a step further. I would say that we do not know reality. That the endeavor of science is trying to figure out what it is. That being said we may never know reality. In fact we may know close to nothing about reality. What amazes me is that we have been able to figure anything about it at all.

[Starboy]

Quote by: rez What do you mean giant discontinuity? I am simply stating Animals/Bacteria/Genes/Nur are unaware of reality where as humans are aware.

I meant the discontinuity that you just stated, that there are humans on one side and everything else on the other side. That to you there appears to be this cliff of self-awareness that separates us from everything else. From what I can see there appears to be a range of consciousness. I am aware of experiments on animals that do reveal some animals of being capable of some kind of inward reflection. Humans are not the only animals that appear to be capable of this. Instead of a cliff it is more like a hill with a somewhat steep incline. That there is a range of abilities and some animals that were considered to be bird brained robots exhibit a surprising range of reasonable responses. That it is very arrogant of humans to presume that we are something special. As if what we posses has never been tried by nature before in any other form or intensity.

Starboy

[rez]

haha I never said animals arent capable of being unaware........I know all about KoKo crying when she found out her pet cat died....

[Starboy]

Well yes. All I was trying to point out is that there seems to be evidence that humans are not the only self-aware species on the planet and that the concept of self-aware is not a discontinuous thing. There is a great deal that goes on in our bodies and around us that we are completely unaware of. Does this now make us just aware? The best we can say is that species X appears to be more self-aware than species Y. That self-awareness is not some discontinuous property of all species. An analogy would be unaided flight. There is an obvious discontinuity between humans and creatures that can fly unaided. But within the group of creatures that can fly unaided some are much better at it than others. And if one further segregates flight there are some that are better than others at speed vs. distance vs. acrobatics vs. ocean/air flight and so on. I would contend that self-awareness also has different dimensions to it and that we may not be the hot stuff we think we are when it comes to certain kinds of self-awareness. In other words I try not to get carried away with the arrogance of our species.

Starboy

[dotcoma]

Rez

Yes, truth is assumed by so many people. The reality we have is accepted so readily because as creatures who love assuming we are on top of things, an existence in question contradicts our assumed awareness. This would explain why we have religions that are dependent on text-books (and little else), and how readily we accept what such books say as "truths".

I think I disagree with how you distinguish humans from the rest of the living organisms. I think humans merely have amplified senses. That is, I think the reactions we have to hunger are very much the same to that of any other creature. When hungry, my dog will let me know it wants food by sitting near it's dish. If we were dependent one something else to provide us food we would do something very similar-babies do it all the time.

Awareness to me is an understanding of what you need, what you are, and how to get it. The distinction with humans is the "what you are" part. This part of our consciousness seems to be unique. Our amplified senses have given us enough intelligence to understand that it is our own reflection in the mirror. Somehow I think an animal could figure this out too-if it had a bit more intelligence. But I think even humans are only somewhat aware. This connects to my first paragraph-some humans choose to define "truths" and shape "reality" even when they are incapable of doing so. People who are fully aware would understand that humans do not know much more than our dog, but we can do the same things that dog has to do (eat,sleep, etc) more efficiently.

I am going to refer to living organisms such as animals and bacteria not including humans because as you all know we are different. This difference starts with the awareness of reality. Imagine what goes through a deer’s mind. The deer doesn’t say "I am hungry and want to eat does it? That would be what we humans would do, but instead a deer may have a sort of a stress in its brain telling it to eat having no awareness of itself and the environment.

To put simply, our awareness seems to be merely the product of a capable short-term and long-term memory combined with our deductive abilities. Man likely did not always recognize himself in that mirror.

Rez, I have talked to you before about the bacteria forming other organisms. It is more about them creating the environment necessary for bigger organisms by multiplying enough and giving off enough waste (such as methane i.e. heat). I learned quite a bit about the subject in my college geology classes.

I agree with you that bacteria feel the same things we do before we are humans..."nothingness". They are both the building blocks for a developed human-the only creature that truly has all three components that give complete awareness.

In regards to your god question: I believe it to be likely that when we die it is over. We are part of a cycle. If we are indeed the product of billions of years, and owe thanks to inferior organisms who provided a plain for us to exist then we are doing nothing more revolutionary than the bacteria did. That is, we exist to multiply, to give off waste, and to finally give up all of our nutrients into the earth again-so as to replenish the system we took from to exist in the first place.

The problem with our awareness is that it is likely as I have said, just an amplified survival sense. The tunnel may be empty, and our quest for discovery may end up futile. We may only all exist to multiply and die for no reason other than the apparent one.

[RingingSword]

rez,

...I think I am concluding that true reality only exists after death. Before death the humans who are conscious will continue the discovery of reality, but the human that is dead is in the real reality.......nothingness because its the only consistent reality......there is no change.....no awareness to know change....

In making an assertion about the ultimate state of reality, i.e. "true reality exists after death," you take a metaphysical position. Why is the unconsciousness of death more real than the consciousness of life?

[rez]

Lets take the Hominid species for example.....millions of years ago their awareness of reality was small...to say what they experienced is speculation....just like when I described what a deer experiences. My evidence is that I am different then a homo erectus which is I (the human) have a higher developed consciousness then the homo erectus (human/beast.....whatever you should call it)

So as the development of human consciousness grows so does our universe. If a human were to discover everything about the universe would it be like a person trapped in a box? Meaning if I discover everything about the universe and can no longer discover, am I not trapped in a box? A box that may have something on the outside of it, in which I could discover MORE.

Starboy says the sun still exists after I die, of course it does, but what does that have to do with anything? I am dead.......nothing exists to me, but to conscious human beings everything exists. You only know the sun exists after your death because you were alive to know what the sun was all about.

Starboy however old you are, death will come, yet you are unaware of many things in the universe. these things do not exist in your reality. it doesn’t mean it wont in a generation a million years from now will it?

It seems as if there is no happy ending to my theory, I think I am concluding that true reality only exists after death. Before death the humans who are conscious will continue the discovery of reality, but the human that is dead is in the real reality.......nothingness because its the only consistent reality......there is no change.....no awareness to know change....
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So can humans discover everything about the universe? If we cant how real can this human experience be? The discovery continues with only one true outcome - death.

[Starboy]

Quote by: rez Lets take the Hominid species for example.....millions of years ago their awareness of reality was small...to say what they experienced is speculation....just like when I described what a deer experiences. My evidence is that I am different then a homo erectus which is I (the human) have a higher developed consciousness then the homo erectus (human/beast.....whatever you should call it)

Okay. I'll go along with this for now.

So as the development of human consciousness grows so does our universe. If a human were to discover everything about the universe would it be like a person trapped in a box? Meaning if I discover everything about the universe and can no longer discover, am I not trapped in a box? A box that may have something on the outside of it, in which I could discover MORE.

Then I don't understand what you are getting at. Either you are trapped or you are not. Also I am not sure that if you did indeed discover everything that you would know it.

Starboy says the sun still exists after I die, of course it does, but what does that have to do with anything? I am dead.......nothing exists to me, but to conscious human beings everything exists. You only know the sun exists after your death because you were alive to know what the sun was all about.

You might have a point if you acted as if there was no more existence after you die. But people do not act like that. They build pyramids, they make wills, they leave endowments, they write autobiographies. To a great many people what they leave is still important to them even if they think that they will just cease to be when they die. Now why do you think that might be? Could it be an evolutionary trait? You think on that.

Starboy however old you are, death will come, yet you are unaware of many things in the universe. these things do not exist in your reality. it doesn’t mean it wont in a generation a million years from now will it?

Of course. The opportunity of new discovery is very exciting. It makes me wish that I could live forever. What is your point?

It seems as if there is no happy ending to my theory, I think I am concluding that true reality only exists after death. Before death the humans who are conscious will continue the discovery of reality, but the human that is dead is in the real reality.......nothingness because its the only consistent reality......there is no change.....no awareness to know change.... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apparently you are bummed out because you have come to the realization that perhaps you will never get to know everything. Well yes, I can see how that could be disappointing. But rather than dwell on the discovery that I will never know everything I prefer to concentrate on the discoveries that I can know. As much hubris as we posses in thinking we know so much, it is not as if we have really begun to know much of anything at all. Besides the chase is more exciting than the catch. That is what we are evolved for.

So can humans discover everything about the universe? If we cant how real can this human experience be?

That my friend is what we are trying to find out. Ignorance is no excuse for at least giving it a good try. And it is absolutely amazing that we have managed to figure out as much as we have. I mean dang! All we are is just a bunch of brainy apes. I think we've done pretty good for what we have had to work with.

The discovery continues with only one true outcome - death.

Hey, life is hard and then you die. Get over it. Otherwise you'll miss the adventure. There are many trips where the journey is far more interesting than the destination. Obviously life is one of those trips.

Starboy

[RingingSword]

rez,

Are you saying the consistency and the certainty of death make it the most real thing? If so, it can be counter-argued that the same status of reality logically applies to life as to death because there is no death without life.

[jeffl]

Quote by: Starboy What amazes me is that we have been able to figure anything about it at all. Starboy

I think this proves Truth exists.

Consciousness requires memory; self-consciousness requires an internal representation of self. It is not clear that the experiential aspect of being requires any of that; it is possible that everything feels pain, but pain at the prospect of death, a dissociation from the Truth.

[Starboy]

Quote by: jeffl I think this proves Truth exists.

When you use the word "truth" do you mean reality?

Consciousness requires memory; self-consciousness requires an internal representation of self. It is not clear that the experiential aspect of being requires any of that; it is possible that everything feels pain, but pain at the prospect of death, a dissociation from the Truth.

Maybe you are right, but if you are honest with yourself you have to admit that you are speaking from pure ignorance. You have no idea if I am conscious; you just think I am because I act like it. We observe ourselves in relation to our consciousness and compare that to others and that is how we draw our conclusions. This is an experiment. The only problem with it is that it is not a very good experiment and as a result it doesn't suggest very good explanations. Before you give your take on consciousness more credence than it deserves perhaps you should look into the more thorough investigations of our brains, minds and consciousness.

Starboy

[Samildanach]

Humans are merely self aware computers nothing more nothing less.

[rez]

Humans are merely self aware computers nothing more nothing less.

are we really self aware....this is my question......how aware are we?

[Starboy]

To some degree we are. I am aware of what I had for lunch.

Starboy

[MerlinsByte]

Consciousness

Merlin writes ;; What is consciousness? Or self-awareness? This debate has been raging well before the ancient Greeks. Neanderthals were probably debating their smaller brained Homo sapiens (us) over 100,000 years ago. I can answer the first two questions, the real biggie is how can one prove that another is self aware and or conscious. With the exponential growth in computing power , "real"AI is nearly here. How could we determine if a machine of even a life form is self aware (Sentient) or just "faking" it? Impossible to answer I say.

mb

[/quote]

[jeffl]

Quote by: Starboy When you use the word "truth" do you mean reality? Starboy

When i say 'Truth' i mean that aspect of reality that persist in harmony past the end of time. When i say 'truth' i mean reality as it is understandably and reasonably perceived by the relivant conscious aspect.

Maybe you are right, but if you are honest with yourself you have to admit that you are speaking from pure ignorance. You have no idea if I am conscious; you just think I am because I act like it.

Yes, but in order to proceed i've had to make certain assumptions. I will assume you are an honest and reasonable person, atleast to start.

This is an experiment.

It's a test.

The only problem with it is that it is not a very good experiment and as a result it doesn't suggest very good explanations.

It's an awesome execution of justice; in which the conscious aspect is all of judge, jury, executioner, victim, and criminal.

Before you give your take on consciousness more credence than it deserves perhaps you should look into the more thorough investigations of our brains, minds and consciousness.

Perhaps. I've done a bit of school; read Penrose's 'The Emperor's New Mind'. I've been thinking alot about ambient (extracellular) neurotransmitter concentrations and dendritic spine formation. And lately about Glial cells and how they might affect ambient nt concentrations. I get the feeling that emotional states might be mediated by glial cells, at least in part. I think consciousness has more to do with vortecies of nt concentrations, interacting within and across layers of neurons; than it does with some quantum ordering of water around the microtubules.

Whaddayathink?

[jeffl]

Quote by: rez ......how aware are we?

This is exactly the question. We ignore the community we've grown out of, and pretend we've fashioned ourselves out of the mud.