Do you hide behind "God"

[MerlinsByte]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I ask the same question of athiest, do they hide from God because they fear they are unable to walk the straight and narrow path he has laid before us? I seriously wonder if that drives some people from God. and no, I do not hide behind God, that is impossible, if oyu really believe and live by his word, you have nothing to hide from thus no reason to "hide behind". Those that do.. aren't really hiding from God, but from themselves.

excerpt from above post

"I ask the same question of athiest, do they hide from God because they fear they are unable to walk the straight and narrow path he has laid before us?"



Merlin writes........Yes Mr Vicchio...its been my experience that most of the rabid anti religious (or rabid anything ) have been psychologically damaged (and sometimes physically abused) by an agent of the religion or thing that they so loathe. I can understand that. I sometimes feel guilty for not addressing this privately before debating them. A high percentage of pathological behavior such as gross denial presents in these individuals, so the debate process is frequently unfruitful. Of course there must be some atheists and agonists that don’t express these “deviant” traits. I have yet to meet one.

mb

[Gorgo]

That's a good question, Mr. Vicchio. I lost the need for god and magical thinking when I started looking at my emotions, and the beliefs which created them.

I find that fear of losing one's self-worth or fear of a lack of self-worth is what creates the need for belief in god(s).

"what if this is all there is (my life, my reality is not enough)" "There has to be a god to give (my) life meaning (worth)."

Once you realize that self-worth is something you don't need to chase after, you start to lose the need for things like that. I'm not all the way there, I don't think anyone is, but I am beginning to understand where the need for such things as magical thinking, smoking, overeating, drug use, comes from.

And since it isn't evident to all, this is just my opinion, based on observation.

[Gorgo]

That may be true with some people. These people have not lost the need for god(s), they hang onto their anger against god(s). They deny god(s) instead of just realizing that gods are just creations of their own fear.


I had very good experience with religion. I wanted to be a minister when I was a young child. I searched hard for a religion as an adult that would get me to that place. I even am a (mail-order) minister of the Universal Life Church and have conducted a wedding.

Then, like I said, I began understanding that our emotions come from our beliefs, and our beliefs about our own self-worth are the filter through which we look at the world, and lost the need for magical thinking.

Yes, I became angry at all the money and time wasted by religion and quackery and chicanery that come from magical thinking for a while. I am losing the need for that as well.

Quote by: MerlinsByte Merlin writes........Yes Mr Vicchio...its been my experience that most of the rabid anti religious (or rabid anything ) have been psychologically damaged

[tusaki]

I seriously wonder if that drives some people from God.

Because I cannot seriously believe in a religion which will condemn millions of honest, good people to hell JUST for the sake of not believing that particular brand and not following their rituals. Believing in a creator, maybe, but then I argue that he doestn't mind what you believe, as long as you are good in your heart and act accordingly.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Tusaki, I ask you this, do you really think God condemns people to hell because they don't follow (insert X church here) beliefs? I don't. Man does that. Man takes and twists and abuses what he can to empower himself, and those are the people that have driven me from established "churches" I am a God fearing, Bible Reading Jesus loving kinda guy, but I am merely a humble servant of the Lord and try to do his will. Not sit on my high horse and condemn others to hell.

Gorgo DOES have a point kinda... did man create God to justify death? That's been my BIGGEST hurdle as a religious believer. Death scares most of us... we live wondering.. is this it? Did Man create God, and the after life to make Death palatable.... I mean after all, if death truly is oblivion what is the point of life?

[MerlinsByte]

Oh! and to respond to your post. A traditional Christian has my highest respect. This would include any traditional religions that require faith , self denial , and discipline . Atheists say that they are courageous and don’t need a god to hide behind, to depend etc. I beg to differ, they are not willing to undertake the task. They are angry and fearful. And there are a few that actually believe that atheism is a logical choice, But I haven’t seen any proof of the latter.

I feel that the homo sapiens brain requires god. Or at least we as a species are preprogrammed genetically to have the tools to understand god. We have the capability to change our paradigm in ways that actually alter our reality. This is what the scripture means when it says Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever..."Gen 6:3 (NAS) If we don’t take that advice our ability to recognize and apply the needed principals may be lost forever. But this is a different topic.

Gods speed to you Mr. V

[Gorgo]

You've hit it on the head, dear sir. There is no point. That is reality. If that is reality, is life a good thing? Is life worthwhile? Why make it something that it isn't? That isn't going to make it worth more, but less. Then you're saying that this life (my life) is not worth very much, but I've added this after life to make it worth something. Of course, there is nothing about the afterlife to make life worth more. An after life only means that life is longer.

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I mean after all, if death truly is oblivion what is the point of life?

[Gorgo]

As part of the subset of life called homo sapiens, I beg to differ. My brain does not require god(s). In fact, my brain keeps telling me that I need not fear reality, I need not create fantasies which seem to give our lives worth, but only confirm our beliefs in our worthlessness.

Quote by: MerlinsByte I feel that the homo sapiens brain requires god.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Gorgo, I once thought much as you do. I really did believe it or not. Why hide from reality, reality is, we are born, we live and we die. There is not escaping that fact, and when we die.. we are nothing. There is no hereafter, no magical place we are spirited off too if we are "good" because some musty 2000 year old or so book says so.

But then... something happened. I sat down one day and read the New Testament, I read it with skeptisism, I read it with disdain, I read it.. because it was the one book that had always defeated me when I tried to actually READ it.

Guess what? I felt it! I felt the gentle hand of Jesus pointing me towards the path he laid out for me. I saw it, and I slowly, not in some "born again zeal" but slowly and haltingly started to accept that there is more to this world then my skeptical mind first believed. And I began to realize something of the truth. I hope, that one day oyu see that the word of Jesus isn't some mumbo jumbo by a guy so insane he got himself nailed to a cross, but rather Jesus IS the Son of God, and he has a real message if you let him speak to your heart.

Even you have a soul Gorgo, and maybe you might realize that your life has a meaning, your time here a purpose. I don't believe we live to earn a "treasure" in heaven, I believe we live to grow, and to learn, and when we die, we see the Universe for what it really is... and it's not a bunch of matter the happened to form the way it did.

MB, thanks.. I mean that, and the same for you, may you find strength when you are weak, comfort when you are sad, and joy when you least expect it :)

[MerlinsByte]

By tuski...... Because I cannot seriously believe in a religion which will condemn millions of honest, good people to hell JUST for the sake of not believing that particular brand and not following their rituals. Believing in a creator, maybe, but then I argue that he doestn't mind what you believe, as long as you are good in your heart and act accordingly.

Merlin replies........Yes, I am not a traditional Christian and happen to think that the English translated bible express some gross errors. Some intentional some by accident but yes, errors. The main thrust of this bible is intact but the details are suspect. The KJV warnings about “Hell” and the ways to get there are questionable. I use what tiny amount of spare time I have to research these translation “mistakes.” Its like looking for undiscovered asteroids, the search may be a long unproductive study in redundancy (if not using uninteresting software) but the rewards for finding something makes the search worthwhile!

So maybe there is hope for all of us atheists to religious in the afterlife. I hope and pray this is the case.

mb

[Gorgo]

Mr Vicchio. You again hit the nail on the head. We are not "nothing" and nothing outside ourself can give us worth. We either have it or we don't. In fact, worth and meaning aren't something that really exist independently of our thoughts about it.

I've read the Bible too. My mother was my Sunday school teacher. We are indoctrinated to think that there is "more" than there is. That is a wish, not a reality. We do not need "more." Life is good as it is. We don't need to add to it.

I was a Christian until I was a teenager. Then, while I began to understand that there was nothing worthwhile written in the Bible, I was an angry youth and became an atheist. I looked into the new ideas brought in by the New Age for a while. Looked into Norman Vincent Peale for a while, Oral Roberts for a while. Became an atheist again. Looked into New Agey type stuff again. I realized it all comes from the same fear. You think loving god is wonderful? Try losing the need for such things.

Life is the real treasure. Don't miss it by creating fantasies.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Hehe, I don't Love Jesus near as much as he loves me. That's where he found me, and that's where I am. Am I perfect? Hardly. Am I a good person? I try to be. But I don't "need" a fantasy, I didn't go looking for it, He found me. What's in the Bible.. isn't meant to be taken litterally, it's the spiritual that you must touch, and from.. you move on. It's much like what you just said... either your eyes see, your ears hear, your heart knows.. or it doesn't. Nothing I can say will change that. Only you can, and you must Choose too. No one can make you.

[Gorgo]

No reason to think Jesus existed anymore than did Hercules, or Adonis.

No reasonable evidence to assume that there are any "spirits."

[Gorgo]

Just like there is not one thing that is theist, there is not one thing that is atheist. Atheist simply means a lack of belief in god. Babies are atheists. You don't believe in god(s) without a lot of indoctrination, and most mature adults really don't believe in any kind of supernatural anyway, they just say the words.

Having said that, I did not say that atheists are more courageous. There is no reason to think that. Again, just because one is atheist, does not mean that they arrived at atheism by losing their fear of reality. And beginning to lose one's fear of reality does not mean that one becomes healed of that instantaneously in all areas of life.

Quote by: MerlinsByte Atheists say that they are courageous and don’t need a god to hide behind, to depend etc.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: Gorgo No reason to think Jesus existed anymore than did Hercules, or Adonis. No reasonable evidence to assume that there are any "spirits."

Unlike your other examples, there is ample historical documentation there was in fact, a Jesus, who was executed by cruxifiction at the hand of Pontious Pilate.

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Unlike your other examples, there is ample historical documentation there was in fact, a Jesus, who was executed by cruxifiction at the hand of Pontious Pilate.

Contempory sources? Not ones written 60 years after the death event?

[Gorgo]

There are certainly no contemporary non-Christian accounts. The Christian accounts are probably completely bogus. There is no evidence that Jesus ever wrote any books. No accounts of Herrod's genocide.

Nope. No reason to think it's more than fiction.

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Unlike your other examples, there is ample historical documentation there was in fact, a Jesus, who was executed by cruxifiction at the hand of Pontious Pilate.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Pooeypants Contempory sources? Not ones written 60 years after the death event?

Much of what we "know" about Jesus, particularly from a doctrinal point of view, wasn't established until several centuries after his death.

The similarities between the "Christ" and the Persian god Mithras are striking. Both were born of a virgin on December 25th, had twelve disciples, were killed and rose from the dead. Both performed miracles, were mortal, and were called "savior".

Jesus, the historical figure, may have lived and been crucified by Pilate. Jesus as the Christ was the subject of debate and even bloodshed during the first few hundred years of the early church.

[Gorgo]

Right. It may have happened, but there is no good reason to think so anymore than Hercules or Moses or Mithra was based on a historical figure.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: FIFI Ok, let me start off that I do NOT want this to offend anyone, its just a topic brought up in my debate class... Do you believe that people hide behind there religion so they have a platform for there beliefs(I.e. pro choice, anti-guns, etc..) or that religion is based on a scared population of individuals who cannot face the changing world so they make up rules to get into a heaven that coincidently coinside with the fear in question? Yes or No, thanks, have a good day!

I know, I'm violating "the 'rule,'" but it's just not that simple. Some "hide." Some really believe and use it as a basis for their life, no matter how much they violate their own beliefs or how delusional their beliefs may or may not be. Is it fear? Same answer.

The fear and control questions in religion or faith have more to do with defects in our own nature than why we do or believe something. For instance I have noticed faiths such as Unitarianism that have no dogma, and no single deity to hide behind, supposedly, still seem to offer the same power struggles and internal fear mongering. They just use group acceptance vs. social pressure: shunning and marginalization; where in a more theistic environment fear of God's rejection or Hell is used, for example. In short, I think it's a human trait to try and use fear, and power politics, no matter what theistic tools we may or may not claim we have or believe in. Fear is at the heart of much of our politics right now, perhaps more so than in the past twenty years. Religion seems to combine our relationship with the unknown or the unknowable, fear of "the other," our desire to be accepted with social situations better than politics can. For fear mongering Fundies love to use Humanists, or Secularists (NOT always one in the same) as "the monsters" at society's door: more than a few Unitarians fall into those categories. Unitarians too often use Fundies in the same manner. Sometimes I wonder if both faiths would shrink in size if such the monstrosity of such tactics turned on those who use them.

For those who are interested, a few of my columns have been written on Unitarian issues. Here are two recent editions...


http://www.politicalpuzzle.org/inspe...at_the_pel.php

http://www.politicalpuzzle.org/inspe...l_collecti.php