Fall of the Church

[orgaelin]

An Indian Guru once complained, "Every time a prostitute comes to me, she's talking about nothing but God. She says 'I'm sick of this life that I'm living. I want God.' But every time a priest comes to me he's talking about nothing but sex."

Is the Christian church just a tired old whore waiting to die?

I watched a program the other day about sexual corruption within the Roman Catholic church. It wasn't just about the paedophilic activities of priests, but about the widespread sexual dysfunctionality caused by the church's denial of that so natural of Human impulses.

The program also showed how the number of new priests signing up is declining rapidly. Is the church on its last legs? It was once the largest and greatest empire (or should I say, it once Borg-esquely assimilated the largest empire) and was untouchable as the supreme source of evil on earth. I have a book which goes through the list of popes and lists every sin they committed. You feel more like you're reading a collection of the sins of people on death-row!

I think what we are witnessing is a world which recognises that it's biggest church, the most bold acclaimant to the authority of God, is and has been the source of the greatest wrong-doings of Humanity. As the sins of the church become better and better known, decent people are becoming ever more wary of the church.

There will always be the fundamentalists (God help them!), but as the major religious movement on earth, I suspect the Roman Catholic faith will be just a bad memory within 50-100 years.

Interesting thoughts. Generally speaking, it's not the religions or the gods, it's the leaders (great majority male) and their flocks (sheep of both sexes).

Of course, we are all God's little children are we not? Anyone ever asked a Christian to explain how Islamic terrorism for example, must be part of God's plan?

Bottom line, people do evil shit and invoke <insert deity here> to legitimize <insert whatever evil shit here> to themselves and to others.

And may God continue to bless America.

[orgaelin]

The religion *is* the people who make up it's members.

I'm not God's child, at least, no more than he is mine

That's not all that needs to be on the bottom line though. Yes, it is a good one, but it doesn't explain or comment on the other reasons we have religion. It's not just to justify atrocities, even if it's 90% that!

It has to be accepted that 'the masses' really *are* stupid and really do need religion, or a mind-controlling mass-media/government to tell them how to live their lives and what to think.

But what of the likes of you and I, who are not victims of the naturally inborn mass-hysteria disease? Do we need something to believe in, something to belong to?

I think we do. But I also think that we should never ever let anyone else tell us what to think, feel, or believe. Sure we can look at other peoples' ideas, but only as a way to inspire our own.

My beliefs are a little extensive, but I feel they would be agreeable to most people. Nevertheless I would probably bore you all to tears if I went through them all here. Why? Because they're mine, and they're no more relevant to you than the Pope's ideas about when you are and aren't allowed to have sex.

The biggest problem with religion is it treats everyone as part of the mass, makes them all believe the same thing and effectively become one big easily manageable person.

[Downwiththestereotype]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (orgaelin,)
The religion *is* the people who make up it's members.



The biggest problem with religion is it treats everyone as part of the mass, makes them all believe the same thing and effectively become one big easily manageable person.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I nearly didnt reply in thsi thread but this sentance here I really picked up on.

I think youve stumbles accross the primary purpose of so many aspects of society. In a society which is now becomming more secular, you could replace the word Religion in yoursentance with any aspect of society. Media, Education, Economy.

The fall of religion has led to new ways of controlling the people, thinkj about the brainwashing you receive from education, when your too ound to realise it, taught to accept authority and worek for little reward, Education teaches you to work for the rulling classes, much as Religion used to before people grew tired.

Poeopl are still controlled and brain washed, the means have simplky become moree subtle and complex. The powers are always keepping themselves a step ahaed.

Peace

[orgaelin]

I thank you your comments, except for the bit about stumbling on to it

It's actually part of a larger theory I have about organisations or movements like religion, but it also includes psychology, the 'accepted view' in various scientific disciplines, etc.

Basically, it's about organisations or movements that act like life-forms, in that they display activities and traits that are suggestive of a living creature trying to survive.

Look at something such as psychology. It has a very bizarre history and has frequently been exposed as a complete non-science, a collection of barbaric psychiatrists treating truly helpless patients with truly barbaric methods that have been proven *not* to work for the benefit of the patient, but simply to make them more manageable. The 'science' of psychology should have died out like the 'science' of phrenology (determining things about a personality by the shape of their skull). But it hasn't. Why? Because it fought for survival and 'evolved' to beat every new threat.

The same is true of Catholocism, education, and the economy. They survive attack by evolving and changing strategies. There is no specific individual at the helm, rather it seems to be just the collective intelligence of the members that functions to keep alive movements that really ought to die.

Perhaps this sounds like just an observation, and that's it. But it's more. It's a warning. Why? Because if organisations can mimmick life then there can be predators too--organisations that can actually be of danger to us, like Scientology... but then that's a whole other debate!!

[PeterAngelo]

Religion is the tool of smart people that uses fear and ignorance.

We are little more than talking worms. History proves that.

The current series on the History Channel deals with "barbarians".

Show me where we are different, except for technology, from Genghis Kahn, or any of them.

We are not.

The Vatican Bank is not a church - it never was.

It is the documented financier of every war machine since Caesar.

Jesus may have wanted the bankers driven from the Temple but his main man, Peter, brough them straight to Rome where they still sit.

GET IT.

It's a bank. It financed Hitler and then cut him off when it was time for him to be disposed of. He was a patsy for a big urban renewal project that got rid of overpopulation and an infrastructure that had to go to build modern cities with indoor plumbing and electricity.

One week before we started bombing Iraq, Saddam's main man, Aziz, went to the Vatican.

It was not to blow the pope.

It was banking - pure and simple.

Check out Mexican Cardinal Sandoval.

It's a sick joke - all of it.

Scientology is not a religion, it is using the tax exemption and bank secrecy that all phony churches enjoy.

They are no more - or less - dangerous than any religion.

State depends on people's belief in Church.

Church depends on the state to help control the flock.

The symbiotic relationship is what allows the insanity to continue.

Type in VATICANBANKCLAIMS.COM

Read about the Popes role in sending gold jew-teeth to the Vatican Bank. That's how he got the job.

Religion, thy name is idiot.

Faith in an afterlife is proof of a low IQ.

Since at least 93% of the human race does not have the mental ability to process information on a level that can accept the truth, the game will live forever.

The percentage is consistant throughout history.

It is the way it is.

We are not all smart enough to know the difference between sh-t and shinola.

Some are smart enough and mean enough to kill for money.

They are called world leaders, religious leaders, chiefs, bosses - or anyone who knows how the system really works and actually enjoys the slaughter.

That is religion.

That is the god you pray to.

Jesus said we are all god.

Some are nice by nature.

Some are serial killers by nature.

Serial killers live in the White House, Castles, Mansions, Churches, Mosques, and in my condo.

I'm going to the beach now - it's sunny, warm, safe, quiet and free of poor people.

My American Dream.

Kill an extra Iraqi baby for me while I'm getting a tan.

Sue ya!!!!!!!

[Man Against Time]

*rightly disregarding everything PeterAngelo said again*

The Church (and Im assuming you mean the Catholic one) is dying because it sold itself to the whims of modern losers. They stopped doing the Latin Mass, lost most of their Traditional ritual structure in favor of protestant style pandering to morality, offed the dress codes, introduced guitars (that is sad), the list goes on. They did this because in the 60s a lot of very weak, very godless people complained that it was toooo rigid, all this tradition. So they dumped it all. They turned it into a drive-thru industry where you can come and dump your guilt off once a week.

Obviously, the people more inclined to being religious lost faith in the church and stopped caring about it. They took it less seriously because it took them less seriously. The weak and godless rabble who complained also stopped going once they realized the Church rolled over for them. Their pointless revelry in rebellion was no fun anymore. It should have been predicted that these people would lose faith in the Church regardless of the path it took (modern reformation vs maintaining its structure). The fact that they revolted against women wearing hats, for example, shows that they are obviously not interested in going to Church whatsoever, and care nothing for any connection to a living tradition with rituals, and want only to feel liek a part of something while feeling like they make a difference.

It was wrong to pander to this very fickle and stupid mob, because now the truer followers are left out in the cold, and the fickle and stupid mob has predictably found something else to be fickle and stupid about.

[rcne]

Though I still believe in a divine being, a universal sentient entity.

I've had doubts concerning organized religion in its motives and teachings for some time.

After reading the DaVinci code in conjunction with the Dead Sea scrolls and other histories of religions atrocities, both actively involved in and passively ignoring other atrocities, I find I can no longer believe in anything resembling organized religion.

I've yet to understand the banal smiles of true believers, they obviously chose to believe only what someone else tells them from the pulpit.

[PeterAngelo]

To "Man against Brains":

Disregard me as any one would who cannot deal with reality.

"Pander to a fickle and stupid mob?

What do you think you are - a genius?

Keep your head in the sand - it makes it easier for a freedom fighter to place a bomb in the exposed end.

[Man Against Time]

rcne, what does the presence of "atrocities" do to hurt your perception of a religion? So what? Why should they be absent?

[orgaelin]

PeterAngelo is so right... mostly ;)

Only my opinion of course, but what you say is a little *too* cynical. Be aware that any form of 'extreme' is almost always wrong... you've taken your views about the negativity of the Human existence we are subject to a bit too far. Not everyone is stupid, and not everyone who is clever is mean-spirited and intent on ruling the world for their own ends by manipulation.

Although I agree there is no such thing as a selfless act, there are plenty of people who recognise that working for the good of another/others is far more beneficial than working for yourself. (Like Spock!)

Bottom line: what you believe is true is true for you. I agree we are all blinded by our desires for what we would rather see, but I also think that the universe will show you (or you will extrapolate from it) all the evidence you need to form any hypothesis abuot it you will. If you believe the sky is pink strongly enough, you'll soon start to see it that way. If you believe everyone is bad to the core, they'll soon start to treat you in a way which confirms your beliefs. If you believe completely that you are going to die before some determined date, you most likely will.

So if you're happy with how you see the world, good luck to you. Personally I wear a pair of slightly rose-tinted glasses... might not match up with reality but it makes it nicer to look at while I'm here. That doesn't make me stupid. You look at things and *choose* to see badness... I look at them and choose to see goodness. I'm definitely not stupid!

[rcne]

Man Against Time,

You'll note I said organized religion. The readers digest version of what the church wants your to hear.

I think it was the realization of the persecution and near genocide of what the church considered pagan while the church was establishing itself.

as they say "History is Written by the Winner"

[Man Against Time]

I understand, but I want to know why near genocide is so abominable to you. Pagans committed "near genocide" all the time with no hypocritical desire to "civilize" or "convert" other religions.

The Romans, Egyptians, Indians (In India, not America), Mayans, and Celts had a very organized religion and had no religious wars. I think you are typically confusing Religion with Christianity, which is actually very irreligious (against hierarchy, against rituals, etc).

[shunyadragon]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Man Against Time,)
I understand, but I want to know why near genocide is so abominable to you.  Pagans committed "near genocide" all the time with no hypocritical desire to "civilize" or "convert" other religions. 

    The Romans, Egyptians, Indians (In India, not America), Mayans, and Celts had a very organized religion and had no religious wars.  I think you are typically confusing Religion with Christianity, which is actually very irreligious (against hierarchy, against rituals, etc).<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

A very unreal idealistic view. They all had religious wars. Read the Bahagvagita. The Romans made war in the name of their war God and tried to exterminate the Christians in the name of their God. They also had a habit of collecting Gods. Christian Rome turned on all other Gods in the name of the one true Christian God. The Mayans were blood thrusty dominaters. The sacraficed all their enemy captives to their Gods. The Celts were a neat people, but they too raised there sword against those who defied their God.

There are no angels, just people.

[Man Against Time]

A very unreal idealistic view. They all had religious wars. Read the Bahagvagita. The Romans made war in the name of their war God

Many warred in affirmation of their war god, but that is not a "religious" war; they did not seek the conversion or extermination of a people for different religiions. The nature of religion in the world of Tradition was such that Warriors were being themselves, and thus "paying homage to the war gods" in a sense, by fighting, but this is very different from a Protestant invading Bavaria and burning Catholic churches.

and tried to exterminate the Christians in the name of their God.

No, they tried to exterminate Christianity because it was contrary to the spirit of life that abounded in every other faith. It was "The Atheist pestilence" that undermined all other paths in the world, and thus represented a danger to the entire order of things. If you want to argue that Romans wanted religious orthodoxy, why would they only pick on the Christians and not every other sect and cult scattered around the empire?

Christian Rome turned on all other Gods in the name of the one true Christian God.

...and?

The Mayans were blood thrusty dominaters. The sacraficed all their enemy captives to their Gods.

So? This says nothing of a desire to convert others or a belief that their path was the only one. Their sacrifice was just that- a sacrifice, not a punishment for having a different god. The people they sacrificed had the same pantheons and performed the same sacrifices in most cases.

The Celts were a neat people, but they too raised there sword against those who defied their God.

No, they fought those who opposed them. The fact that they would perform one of any number of rituals to empower themselves before war with the presence of their own gods does not mean their war was motivated by their desire to kill other religions.

There are no angels, just people.

I thought you were a Buddhist...

[Donnyl]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (orgaelin,)
Is the Christian church just a tired old whore waiting to die?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

That depends. Are you referring to the RCC? If so, I agree with you that the RCC part of the Church is comparable to a whore, as it has been unfaithful to God's covenant, forsaking Biblical doctrine for fanciful theories, such as semi-pelagianism, the immaculate conception, and the infallibility of the pope. However, the catholic church (lower-case c, referring to the universal church, as found in the Apostles Creed) is not a whore, but the Bride of Christ, being sanctified and cleansed by the washing of the Word by Christ, and through the ministers of God ordained to lead the children of God and raise them up in Godly teaching. Now, one could make the case that the catholic church (lower-case c again) does have her blemishes (of course she does), but calling her a tired whore waiting to die is too strong.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I watched a program the other day about sexual corruption within the Roman Catholic church. It wasn't just about the paedophilic activities of priests, but about the widespread sexual dysfunctionality caused by the church's denial of that so natural of Human impulses.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Alright, so Christians are sinning and Church authorities are failing to properly discipline them. This is new?

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
The program also showed how the number of new priests signing up is declining rapidly. Is the church on its last legs? It was once the largest and greatest empire (or should I say, it once Borg-esquely assimilated the largest empire) and was untouchable as the supreme source of evil on earth. I have a book which goes through the list of popes and lists every sin they committed. You feel more like you're reading a collection of the sins of people on death-row!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Again, if you would like to criticize the RCC, make sure you recognize that it is merely part of the catholic church, not the whole of it (though, IIRC, the council of Trent would disagree). Furthermore, make sure to examine yourself before throwing accusations like this at various popes and bishops of the RCC. What are your beliefs? What are your actions? Do they line up with the word of God? If you are not a Christian, on what basis do you judge the actions of other men? What is your ethical foundation?
Also, what on earth do you mean by "the surpreme source of evil on earth"? Not only are you going to need an ethical foundation of your own for such a statement, but you are going to have to develop some objective way to measure evil. Finally, you will have to measure up the RCC against Hitler's Third Reich, the Mongolian, Assyrian, Babyloanian, Hittite, and Egyptian Empires, Stalin's USSR, southern chattel slavery, and a host of other things in history. To make a statement like you made is very arrogant and very unwarranted, at least based on what little you provided in your initial post.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I think what we are witnessing is a world which recognises that it's biggest church, the most bold acclaimant to the authority of God, is and has been the source of the greatest wrong-doings of Humanity. As the sins of the church become better and better known, decent people are becoming ever more wary of the church.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Wary of the RCC of the catholic church? If the latter, is such a wariness warranted?
And you again made the unfounded assertion that the RCC is the most evil institution ever.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
There will always be the fundamentalists (God help them!), but as the major religious movement on earth, I suspect the Roman Catholic faith will be just a bad memory within 50-100 years.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Possibly, though I very highly doubt it. The RCC has survived through a lot for much longer than that (Eastern Orthodox schism, Reformation, division over the Vatican council, etc.). By God's grace, I hope and pray that the RCC, EO, and Protestant churches will eventually be more united, but God very well may choose to cut off the RCC because of its sinfulness.

The church / religion is the only threat to government.. people believe more in god than government, to train them away from GOD and into government rule is the only way Government can survive and rule.. look at IRAQ, the bombers surrender their lives to fight off intruders.. all in the name of a GOD.. would you do that for a government.. not yet, but in time you will.. that's what the plan seems to be..

[Donnyl]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (CitizenCOP,)
The church / religion is the only threat to government.. people believe more in god than government, to train them away from GOD and into government rule is the only way Government can survive and rule.. look at IRAQ, the bombers surrender their lives to fight off intruders.. all in the name of a GOD.. would you do that for a government.. not yet, but in time you will.. that's what the plan seems to be..<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

This is, of course, the fundamental difference between Christianity and modern liberalism (or whatever you want to call it). Christianity is centered around the Church, the Family of God, the Kingdom of God, a nation of priests, the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, and our Mother. Liberalism, though it can be centered around the family, is today either centered around the civil government (statism) or the self (individualism). Because liberalism places man as the supreme being (humanism), the institutions that seem to orginate from man are most exalted, either in the state, the family, or the individual self-government. Really, this seems to be one of the main roots of anti-Christian religion, as either the state, the family, or the individual is raised above the Church, and consequently, God. This is idolatry, plain and simple.

[white rice]

Once the Catholic Church allows their priests to marry, things will be back to business as usual....

[PeterAngelo]

We are supposed to grow and use our intelligence to escape the violent and insane past games of rule by fear and terror.

We have a thousand years of perfectly documented history that tells a story we can learn from.

Mel Fisher, who found the Spanish Gallion, "Atosha" has the original manifest that lists every thing loaded on that ship. The churches and governments of antiquity have an unbroken chain of "evidence" that exists - and can be dealt with legally.

We are supposed to not be animals who willingly kill and eat each other (literally or figuratively). Our system would work if the people at the top had any integrity.

I spent a few hours at the Federal Court Building in Tampa researching some cases at the clerks office.

The security was a gas - like an airport. The marshalls came up to the clerks office to check me out. I am pretty well known in Tampa - my "Bin Laden is Moses Reborn" has been read by all my "judge" friends.

I had fun with the marshalls. They are mostly retired New York cops and we are kindrid spirits. One of my bong screens set off the scanner. I didn't know it was in that pocket. When I pulled it out I said, "a screen, now how did that get there?"

The marshall looked at me and said, "What are you doing with a screen?"

"Who me?, I said. "I have no idea what you mean."

He smiled at me and all the other guys (six marshalls) laughed with us. It is good to be with a lawfirm in a Federal Building and be one of the boys. I told them it was good to have them guard me - I need it. Good old boys - for sure.

There was an individual - with a foreign accent - asking the clerk for some help understanding the process.

She told him she was not allowed to give any advice. He was livid. He said he didn't want to cause any trouble but the "system" was ridiculous and if you are not a lawyer - it is impossible to access the courts.

GOOD GUESS.

While I and my brother got all the help we needed from the same clerks - he watched and waited.

We noticed twenty years ago that full citizenship - and legitimacy - only comes by being an official part of the government. Lawyers are certainly that.

If my brother-the -lawyer, and I did not have legal educations, and membership in the BAR, we would have been as helpless and frustrated as that man.

He said that the case he was working on meant his livleyhood, and his families prosperity. He is doomed without VERY EXPENSIVE legal representation (especially in federal cases).

It seems to me that the whole voting process, the real meaning of being a "citizen", means being an active party member (DEM or REP), politician lawyer, or some kind of police agent (FBI - CIA - etc.).

Unless you are a member of the bureaucracy - you are a "foreigner".

That is how it really is.

Get a legal education - for your own survival and your familie's.

Even if you are a beach bum, or a brain surgeon - a legal education is a must for self-protection and membership into the US - GOVERNMENT!

I do a lot of unofficial reporting to the local papers when I run across something interesting. I have a degree in mass Communications and am a trained photo-journalist.

The following report is being followed up by the Tampa Tribune. It builds my case that the release of violent criminals, and the drug trade, are control mechanisms used by the ruling elite to keep a big police force "necessary" - when it really isn't.

I spoke to a Clearwater (Florida) Police detective (Keishe Bradley) today and heard some astonishing news. It seems that Florida not only has a heroin epidemic, we also have a meth-amphetamine epidemic that is being aided and abetted by the police themselves.

She told me that the police do not bust local meth labs because;

1) Under federal rules the police have to bring in OSHA experts to properly dispose of the chemicals.

2) The danger of causing an explosion when storming a meth lab located in a residential neighborhood is too great to take a chance on lawsuits and “collateral damage.”

The end result is that the combined epidemics of meth - amphetamine, and heroin are causing a lot of death and destruction. It is another effective control mechanism for a frustrated and powerless populace.

Instead of the cops actively stopping the drug trade, they are using it as a means of population control. We end up killing each other, making the courts and police stronger by helping to keep the drug culture in business.

I wrote a lot about the time I spent working at Customs Clearance and Dispatch in Miami several years ago. The customs officer in charge of “guarding” the warehouse personally handled the container of heroin that arrived every week. It is true – I was there and worked with him.

The media (local) has never even hinted at this deliberate (and suspicious) decision by law authorities to NOT bust meth – labs.

I will send this to several local print and TV personalities I know and see if the story can be made more “mainstream.”

These policies are not accidental. The drug “war” is a war against us. The deliberate criminalization of substances that frustrated, angry people use to kill their pain is a guaranteed way of building up a police state and having the “sheep” kill themselves, and each other.

It makes work for lawyers, and justifies more and more prisons to hold minorities and political prisoners.

It is a brilliant improvement in the traditional police state. Instead of police and soldiers doing the shooting and killing directly – they promote policies that lead to the people committing self-genocide.

It is actually working. What I find most disturbing when I read the posts on this forum is how trapped most people are in traditional thinking.

The work my families law firm does in Tampa is considered "maverick". We do civil rightrs work and do not work for money. We work to drive the judges and bar rats crazy by using the law against them.

That is the way to revolution - from within. We are outnumbered by the lawyers with no integrity who are rewarded for their "allegiance" to the king.
We are treated as enemies of the state by the bar and the local judiciary.

I get more pleasure in thinking about a judge not sleeping - or having to hire an expensive lawfirm to do work he is incapable of doing - than I would get if I got a check for a million dollars - or put a knife up his ass.

My kind of torture is deeper, meaner, longer lasting, and more painful.

My reward is my spirit soaring with pure pleasure when "the least among us" beats the bastards who should have helped in the first place - because it is their damn job.

Integrity and positive agendas are missing from government - and most of us.

Try it.