Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

rhod01 · Nov 14, 2004, 01:13 am

Where do yyou think the boundries should lie between politics & faith?

I am a secularist, and am personally against politicians who try to enforce their religion in law. Like subsidies for churches or faith-run organisations. The same will iligallising somehing becasue it's against your faith.

Even if, for instance, a religion is followed by a majoraty in a society, I think the law should be eqaul and neutral. No special treatment!

And politicians should serve their constituents, not a old theological text!

Suburbanite · Nov 14, 2004, 03:44 am

It seems like fair practice to be honest. If this country is based on the demands of the majority, and the majority feels this way then the system should reflect it. The Christian Problem only comes into play because some how people in this world still follow these mythological notions. I think that more money in the education system and proper reform of it will help to solve the abundance of faith plaguing Americans. I also think it is the responsibility of atheists and agnostics to look at Christianity with extremely critical eyes and understand its overwhelming negative affects.
It isn't fair to deny people representation of their morality on the basis of faith when that is the stem of all morality outside of self-defense. What isn't fair is that Christians are not laughed at when they speak in public, they aren't ridiculed and mocked by friends and family, and no one puts an effort out to help them.

dalin · Nov 15, 2004, 03:55 pm

^ Are you kidding? Have you by any chance seen the recent movie Saved? That was the one and only premise of the whole film; to play on religious stereotypes. Or watched any popular entertainment (e.g. Ned Flanders of the Simpsons)? Trust me there's plenty of Christian ridicule out there..

As for separation of religion and politics, I couldn't agree more. Imposing one's beliefs through the law of the land is a selfish and corrupt thing for a politician to do. If, however, it is a reflection of the majority, democracy must take its course. To do otherwise would be just as corrupt as the first case above.

Starboy · Nov 15, 2004, 04:40 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by dalin,
As for separation of religion and politics, I couldn't agree more. Imposing one's beliefs through the law of the land is a selfish and corrupt thing for a politician to do. If, however, it is a reflection of the majority, democracy must take its course. To do otherwise would be just as corrupt as the first case above.

Our government is not a democracy. It is a republic. There are some things that are just not open to vote. Or at least should not be. People need to understand that everyone sooner or later is in a minority. The bill of rights is not something that should be up for a vote.

Starboy

rhod01 · Nov 16, 2004, 12:15 am

Public office is a trust. Not a spiritual outlet.

Suburbanite · Nov 16, 2004, 03:24 am

Quote:

Originally posted by dalin,
^ Are you kidding? Have you by any chance seen the recent movie Saved? That was the one and only premise of the whole film; to play on religious stereotypes. Or watched any popular entertainment (e.g. Ned Flanders of the Simpsons)? Trust me there's plenty of Christian ridicule out there..

As for separation of religion and politics, I couldn't agree more. Imposing one's beliefs through the law of the land is a selfish and corrupt thing for a politician to do. If, however, it is a reflection of the majority, democracy must take its course. To do otherwise would be just as corrupt as the first case above.

There is a minimal amount of Christian ridicule. You've listed two things, it is hardly proof. In every day life Christians are treated as regular people, publically their opinions aren't laughed at, and it is a shame.

crayola · Nov 17, 2004, 08:22 am

I will agree. Christians should be critically examined in their policy of "Lording" it over everyone else. Atheists who merely do not believe the same things Christians believe should challenge the "faith based" biblical claims via debate. For example, who told you that you were a sinner? Did they accuse you unjustly and by what reason did they give? Was their accusation via the bible? Then by law of commandments the Christian has decided to condemn you. What should your response be to accusations of "sinner" who has transgressed biblical laws?

Ans: Where there is no law there is no sin to be applied. Moses did not give the commandments of law to any other peoples but the sons of Jacob. And "sin" is defined as transgression of the law of Moses. The entire purpose of the law was to rule over the Israelites, not anyone else.

Of course Christians cannot handle this truth and will insist on everyone being under the same laws of Israel. .. while at the same time these same Christians will say they themselves are not bound by those laws. Then why the hell are they trying to convict everyone else?

Isn't it time for Christians to be educated in their own religion? And if they have no leaders who are willing to do it then it is up to each of you to take your place as teacher . Just imagine, if Dubya had received a proper education in his own religion he would never have thought to pre-empt an attack for the purpose of killing Muslims and giving them freedom from their own religion of Islam. He would never have thought to replace Islam with "Judeo/Christianity" as his form of democracy. For if he had been educated in his own religion, there would have been no need for him to start his racist war.

Starboy · Nov 17, 2004, 09:40 am

Quote:

Originally posted by crayola,
Isn't it time for Christians to be educated in their own religion? And if they have no leaders who are willing to do it then it is up to each of you to take your place as teacher . Just imagine, if Dubya had received a proper education in his own religion he would never have thought to pre-empt an attack for the purpose of killing Muslims and giving them freedom from their own religion of Islam. He would never have thought to replace Islam with "Judeo/Christianity" as his form of democracy. For if he had been educated in his own religion, there would have been no need for him to start his racist war.

There is no point in trying to "educate" Christians. You presume that there was ever a time when there was a single unequivocal version of any religion, Christianity is no exception. And then there is always the revalation wildcard ("God said that you must send me money"). This lets them cherry pick and twist as much as they like. As much as Christians like to tout the "law of god" for the most part they all disagree to some extent or another as to what that exactly is. I say give then all guns and let them send each other to heaven, and do it as quickly as possible.

Starboy

crayola · Nov 18, 2004, 01:25 am

"I say give them all guns and let them send each other to heaven, and do it as quickly as possible."

I take it you've decided to let the Republicans send their own children of Right Wing Religious Fanatics to Iraq? Newtie and other Republicans did state pre-emptively that "you can expect your children to die". It's nice to know he was talking about his own kind isn't it. <g>

There is no choice left but to "educate" Christians. Their church leaders aren't doing it, the TV evangelists refuse to do it, so there is no one left but us who have actually read the bible and have the guts to debate its secular biased and racist tradition. The Christians as they are now, simply live in a make-believe world and have no reason to "think". They are cushioned from debate by enablers who believe the Christians can do them no harm. But look what they have done already. They have lied their way into a war that will eventually cost you and me higher taxes, less civil liberties, and maybe even the destruction of our constitution, not to mention the casualties which go unreported and unnoticed. Allowing ignorance to prevail in tolerance of its form certainly is not the answer for "reasonable" survival of the fittess.

Most of what the Christians are taught is not even in the bible. A "rapture" being one of those things. In order to prove the many false beliefs the Christians cling to one must study the biblical scriptures and challenge the Christians in their doctrines.

Here's the first point to start with: Make Christians prove that Jesus was sent to other people than sons of Jacob called Israel.

#2. If Jesus was not sent to Christians then how is he their lord?
Because they say so? Well, that is not enough proof to shake a stick at. The Christian must come up with something and so he will detour to a "faith" answer which also doesn't prove anything. What you want to drag out of the Christian, is proof that Jesus was sent to any other people than sons of Jacob called Israel.

This isn't a difficult task. So hop, skip, or jump to a few Christian forums and begin a challenge for debate on these points. Once you force the ignorant Christian to actually think, he will begin to discover other false ideologies in his religion. And once he understands that he is no better than any other human on this planet, he just might think twice about voting for another pre-emptive racist war. And this will of course help secure both my and your "futures".

Starboy · Nov 18, 2004, 08:26 am

Crayola, I left out the most important reason as to why it is a waste of time to "educate" Christians. No matter what you show them they will always have "faith" in the "truth" of what they have been taught. The only solution I can see to the problem is to get to their kids first and inoculate them against "faith". But they have thought of this and are busy getting vouchers to send their kids to private Christian schools or doing home schooling. I say good for them. To all parents that think that helping their kids means teaching them "faith" then do not hold back. Make the only book they read the bible and the only knowledge of nature that they posses the supernatural. School them that the answer to every scientific question is "god made it that way". A generation or two of this and we can look forward to being a third world country and looking for aid from Europe or Asia. Either that or the blue states are going to get sick and tired of paying welfare to the red states and decide that secession wasn't such a bad idea after all.

Starboy

crayola · Nov 18, 2004, 10:39 pm

I see your points and agree with most of what you say. But presenting a challenge to their minds that make them think and do a little research on the subject will certainly help. Having been a conditioned robot myself, it took me quite a while to give God and Jesus back to the people of Israel. And I thank each and every "reasonable" atheist who helped me through it. When I finally said "that's enough", it was the happiest day of my life. I now look forward to helping others let go of Israel and all the superstition of the Bible.

All my life I've heard "the South's gonna rise again"; but I had no clue as to it being in the form of Fundamentalists and their God "Dubya". <g>

yep, those liberal Democrats had better get busy grooming one of those "good 'ol boys" for president. But then, Hilary is positioned as a "daughter of the confederacy" in her marriage to Bill. We are apt to see some heavy politicing in the next few years., for sure.

Starboy · Nov 18, 2004, 10:51 pm

Crayola, I've always been an atheist so I can't relate to the mind processes of a magical thinker. I understand that there are more theists becoming atheists than the other way around. I also understand that those theists that have become atheist usually did so because of either a big disconnect with their religion brought on by their own study or by being challenged by non-theists. I also understand that fundamentalism is also on the rise in the US and that it is growing much faster than atheism. But I also understand that there are many theists that are not fundamentalists. Many of these theists are very much live and let live folk unlike the fundamentalist kind. You might have more luck alerting this kind of theist to the dangers of fundamentalism in our country than you will have in converting them to atheists.

Starboy

Nov 14, 2004, 01:13 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
rhod01 Socialist Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 226	Where do yyou think the boundries should lie between politics & faith? I am a secularist, and am personally against politicians who try to enforce their religion in law. Like subsidies for churches or faith-run organisations. The same will iligallising somehing becasue it's against your faith. Even if, for instance, a religion is followed by a majoraty in a society, I think the law should be eqaul and neutral. No special treatment! And politicians should serve their constituents, not a old theological text! http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/1153/gates8lq.jpg Political Compass Position: Economic Left/Right:-9.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian:-7.13

Nov 16, 2004, 12:15 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
rhod01 Socialist Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 226	Public office is a trust. Not a spiritual outlet. http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/1153/gates8lq.jpg Political Compass Position: Economic Left/Right:-9.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian:-7.13

Nov 14, 2004, 03:44 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	It seems like fair practice to be honest. If this country is based on the demands of the majority, and the majority feels this way then the system should reflect it. The Christian Problem only comes into play because some how people in this world still follow these mythological notions. I think that more money in the education system and proper reform of it will help to solve the abundance of faith plaguing Americans. I also think it is the responsibility of atheists and agnostics to look at Christianity with extremely critical eyes and understand its overwhelming negative affects. It isn't fair to deny people representation of their morality on the basis of faith when that is the stem of all morality outside of self-defense. What isn't fair is that Christians are not laughed at when they speak in public, they aren't ridiculed and mocked by friends and family, and no one puts an effort out to help them.

Nov 15, 2004, 03:55 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
dalin Molten Ash Posts: 118	^ Are you kidding? Have you by any chance seen the recent movie Saved? That was the one and only premise of the whole film; to play on religious stereotypes. Or watched any popular entertainment (e.g. Ned Flanders of the Simpsons)? Trust me there's plenty of Christian ridicule out there.. As for separation of religion and politics, I couldn't agree more. Imposing one's beliefs through the law of the land is a selfish and corrupt thing for a politician to do. If, however, it is a reflection of the majority, democracy must take its course. To do otherwise would be just as corrupt as the first case above.

Nov 17, 2004, 08:22 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
crayola Molten Ash Posts: 129	I will agree. Christians should be critically examined in their policy of "Lording" it over everyone else. Atheists who merely do not believe the same things Christians believe should challenge the "faith based" biblical claims via debate. For example, who told you that you were a sinner? Did they accuse you unjustly and by what reason did they give? Was their accusation via the bible? Then by law of commandments the Christian has decided to condemn you. What should your response be to accusations of "sinner" who has transgressed biblical laws? Ans: Where there is no law there is no sin to be applied. Moses did not give the commandments of law to any other peoples but the sons of Jacob. And "sin" is defined as transgression of the law of Moses. The entire purpose of the law was to rule over the Israelites, not anyone else. Of course Christians cannot handle this truth and will insist on everyone being under the same laws of Israel. .. while at the same time these same Christians will say they themselves are not bound by those laws. Then why the hell are they trying to convict everyone else? Isn't it time for Christians to be educated in their own religion? And if they have no leaders who are willing to do it then it is up to each of you to take your place as teacher . Just imagine, if Dubya had received a proper education in his own religion he would never have thought to pre-empt an attack for the purpose of killing Muslims and giving them freedom from their own religion of Islam. He would never have thought to replace Islam with "Judeo/Christianity" as his form of democracy. For if he had been educated in his own religion, there would have been no need for him to start his racist war.

Nov 18, 2004, 01:25 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
crayola Molten Ash Posts: 129	"I say give them all guns and let them send each other to heaven, and do it as quickly as possible." I take it you've decided to let the Republicans send their own children of Right Wing Religious Fanatics to Iraq? Newtie and other Republicans did state pre-emptively that "you can expect your children to die". It's nice to know he was talking about his own kind isn't it. <g> There is no choice left but to "educate" Christians. Their church leaders aren't doing it, the TV evangelists refuse to do it, so there is no one left but us who have actually read the bible and have the guts to debate its secular biased and racist tradition. The Christians as they are now, simply live in a make-believe world and have no reason to "think". They are cushioned from debate by enablers who believe the Christians can do them no harm. But look what they have done already. They have lied their way into a war that will eventually cost you and me higher taxes, less civil liberties, and maybe even the destruction of our constitution, not to mention the casualties which go unreported and unnoticed. Allowing ignorance to prevail in tolerance of its form certainly is not the answer for "reasonable" survival of the fittess. Most of what the Christians are taught is not even in the bible. A "rapture" being one of those things. In order to prove the many false beliefs the Christians cling to one must study the biblical scriptures and challenge the Christians in their doctrines. Here's the first point to start with: Make Christians prove that Jesus was sent to other people than sons of Jacob called Israel. #2. If Jesus was not sent to Christians then how is he their lord? Because they say so? Well, that is not enough proof to shake a stick at. The Christian must come up with something and so he will detour to a "faith" answer which also doesn't prove anything. What you want to drag out of the Christian, is proof that Jesus was sent to any other people than sons of Jacob called Israel. This isn't a difficult task. So hop, skip, or jump to a few Christian forums and begin a challenge for debate on these points. Once you force the ignorant Christian to actually think, he will begin to discover other false ideologies in his religion. And once he understands that he is no better than any other human on this planet, he just might think twice about voting for another pre-emptive racist war. And this will of course help secure both my and your "futures".

Nov 18, 2004, 08:26 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Starboy BANNED: Repeated insults Posts: 4,828	Crayola, I left out the most important reason as to why it is a waste of time to "educate" Christians. No matter what you show them they will always have "faith" in the "truth" of what they have been taught. The only solution I can see to the problem is to get to their kids first and inoculate them against "faith". But they have thought of this and are busy getting vouchers to send their kids to private Christian schools or doing home schooling. I say good for them. To all parents that think that helping their kids means teaching them "faith" then do not hold back. Make the only book they read the bible and the only knowledge of nature that they posses the supernatural. School them that the answer to every scientific question is "god made it that way". A generation or two of this and we can look forward to being a third world country and looking for aid from Europe or Asia. Either that or the blue states are going to get sick and tired of paying welfare to the red states and decide that secession wasn't such a bad idea after all. Starboy

Nov 18, 2004, 10:39 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
crayola Molten Ash Posts: 129	I see your points and agree with most of what you say. But presenting a challenge to their minds that make them think and do a little research on the subject will certainly help. Having been a conditioned robot myself, it took me quite a while to give God and Jesus back to the people of Israel. And I thank each and every "reasonable" atheist who helped me through it. When I finally said "that's enough", it was the happiest day of my life. I now look forward to helping others let go of Israel and all the superstition of the Bible. All my life I've heard "the South's gonna rise again"; but I had no clue as to it being in the form of Fundamentalists and their God "Dubya". <g> yep, those liberal Democrats had better get busy grooming one of those "good 'ol boys" for president. But then, Hilary is positioned as a "daughter of the confederacy" in her marriage to Bill. We are apt to see some heavy politicing in the next few years., for sure.

Nov 18, 2004, 10:51 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Starboy BANNED: Repeated insults Posts: 4,828	Crayola, I've always been an atheist so I can't relate to the mind processes of a magical thinker. I understand that there are more theists becoming atheists than the other way around. I also understand that those theists that have become atheist usually did so because of either a big disconnect with their religion brought on by their own study or by being challenged by non-theists. I also understand that fundamentalism is also on the rise in the US and that it is growing much faster than atheism. But I also understand that there are many theists that are not fundamentalists. Many of these theists are very much live and let live folk unlike the fundamentalist kind. You might have more luck alerting this kind of theist to the dangers of fundamentalism in our country than you will have in converting them to atheists. Starboy