If religion did not exist..would I eat your brain?

What I was getting at in my title is about the idea of religion being intended as a control mechanism. That is, was organized religion established to give the poor enough hope and fear from an invisible guard that it deterred them from stealing from their landowners, bosses, higher-ups, etc? It seems so. The idea of God helped construct the pyramids, so why is it any different for us?

It seems to me that the idea of blind faith merely prevents this construct from being disputed with crazy things like oh I don't know..rationality

I really wonder if we told people tomorrow that God did not exist, and proved it to them if they would eat my brain, steal my xbox, and run into the forest to gorge.

What do you think?

[Technosoul]

hmm, food for thought (a little pun).

Are you asking if we would still be animals if it were not for religions giving us a better self-image?

[Pooeypants]

Religion is a Nobel lie. Ensures social order amongst the less well educated, I think it's working fairly well at the moment.

[Technosoul]

what we are taling about is the holy cow system, allow me to outline the historical facts via remote viewing.

As it were a group of people learned that they did not have to hunt and gather food anymore because they could domesticate wild animals - planting crops, and learning how to herd cattle, goats, sheep, and other such live stock to consume and milk.

After they learned the art of herding cattle it was an easy step to come up with the bright idea they could also herd people the same way, to domesticate savages or so-called "wild people" to become civilized animals for their use. Even as an ox could be trained to pull a cart, so could wild and uneducated people be trained to do that, with the old carrot and stick motivation used on animals. (reward or punishment).

The wild sheep are domesticated to follow the will of the shepherd, to obey their master. That farming methodolgy was then also applied to other people in the same manner.

As well as for the "domestic house wife". You herd them, milk them for what they are worth, and protect them from the wolf.

That is not a joke, it is how the slave trade and all the other highly controlled cultures were established by a few mastering the many. The rich herding the poor, etc.

Right?

[Gorgo]

No. Religions really changes nothing, except that it makes irrationality sacred.

^right..and rationality would tell poor people to fuck not stealing, killing, etc..right?

[Gorgo]

To fuck not stealing? How do you fuck not stealing?

I don't understand. Most of the people in prisons and in wars believe in gods. What does that change?

[rez]

"We like to think of this as the conquest of bestial weaknessess by the powers of intellectual altruism, as if ethics and morality were some kind of modern invention. If this were really true, it is doubtul if we would be here today to proclaim it. If we did not carry in us the basic biological urge to co-operate with our fellow men, we would never have survived as a species."

"It was only when the tribes expanded into impersonal super-tribes that the ancient pattern of conduct came under pressure and began to break down. Only then did artificial laws and codes of discipline have to be imposed to correct the balance."

"They are more the concern of religion and social custom.. Their function is to increase the illusion that one belongs to a unified tribe rather than a sprawling, seething super-tribe."

----The Human Zoo by Desmond Morris.---

I hope Desmond Morris answered your question -- I couldnt have put it any better.

[Milton Bradley]

Originally posted by Pooeypants, Religion is a Nobel lie. Ensures social order amongst the less well educated, I think it's working fairly well at the moment.

I could not disagree more.


These are the same people that vote in blocks for criminals to rule over us. The lesser of two evils, and all.


There is also the Churches meddling in public policy, and the tax exempt status that I dislike.

Originally posted by Gorgo, To fuck not stealing?  How do you fuck not stealing?  I don't understand.  Most of the people in prisons and in wars believe in gods.  What does that change?

Most people hold back their true emotions, and true desires, accept their status on the social strata, and avoid the extremes (murder, theft, etc) because of the laws, and an invisible God who observes conduct.

I do not know where you draw your conclusions about faith+people in jail. How are you aware of such a statistic? Also, if you are right, and most people in jail "believe in god", I question their belief. The people I was talking about were people who truly fear god.

Without God people would likely not refrain from their desires. It seems likely that an "ends justify the means" society could develop.

rez: Your quotes exaplained the unity, or the control that organized religion has on large cultures, so I assume you agree with the question I posed above.

[Suburbanite]

Ben Franklin talked about converting two friends of his to deism who afterwards refused to return a loan he gave them and from then on felt religion had its grounds. I disagree though, most people are kept in check by law enforcement not religion anyways.

[dalin]

Firstly, I disagree with considering religious people as unintelligent savages, likening them to herds of cattle even! There's disagreeing with someone, and there's outright insulting them. I've personally come across some amazingly bright people that happen to have some seemingly baseless faith in a higher power. That may actually be why I'm still not 100% closed to the notion; perhaps I just haven't had the experience (crudely put that "ultra-hunch") they have had.

rez: That Morris quote is really interesting, though I'm not sure I agree. I think man's ability to reason was what led to his socializing in a survivalist's sense; I imagine ancient ethics was largely utilitarian, as was ancient religion. Some of the practices and superstitions of ancient Egypt, and the Mesapotamian peoples come to mind, e.g. attributing unexplainable natural phenomena to the spiritual, or the magnification of animal figures.

Religion is a natural response of a reasoning, but more notably, closure craving mind. Granted religion was some 'inventive reasoning', but it was a line of reasoning nonetheless.

As for religion's role in governing actions morally, I don't think it plays one for the nonreligious. Otherwise, why don't the athiests of the world start to incite anarchy? Suburbanite said it; it's the law. Why is it so binding? Again, that survivalist's utilitarianism. I'd rather be here at college than behind bars because I wanted something someone else had.

[Gorgo]

Belief in God has nothing to do with morality.

http://holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

[Pooeypants]

Originally posted by Milton Bradley, I could not disagree more. These are the same people that vote in blocks for criminals to rule over us. The lesser of two evils, and all. There is also the Churches meddling in public policy, and the tax exempt status that I dislike.

Let's be fair, we can't say that our society is falling to pieces, it's not perfect but the population is under control. That's all which matters in the "grand" scheme of things.

[dalin]

Gorgo, what about Christian groups like the Gideons and the like, that actively visit prisons frequently with the purpose of converting inmates? Don't you think they skew those stats? I'm sure athiests have no analogous group.

[rez]

Originally posted by dalin, rez: That Morris quote is really interesting, though I'm not sure I agree. I think man's ability to reason was what led to his socializing in a survivalist's sense; I imagine ancient ethics was largely utilitarian, as was ancient religion. Some of the practices and superstitions of ancient Egypt, and the Mesapotamian peoples come to mind, e.g. attributing unexplainable natural phenomena to the spiritual, or the magnification of animal figures. Religion is a natural response of a reasoning, but more notably, closure craving mind. Granted religion was some 'inventive reasoning', but it was a line of reasoning nonetheless. As for religion's role in governing actions morally, I don't think it plays one for the nonreligious. Otherwise, why don't the athiests of the world start to incite anarchy? Suburbanite said it; it's the law. Why is it so binding? Again, that survivalist's utilitarianism. I'd rather be here at college than behind bars because I wanted something someone else had.

well mans "reasoning" is debatable.

Throughout our evolution our brains have been rewired in ways to fit the environment as needed. farming is one of the ways we conformed to the environment...which lead to more people surviving. I wouldnt say thats "reason" but natural selection. With the population increasing as farming did so did the tribe, becoming the super-tribe.

the book is called the human Zoo......the author is comparing an animal zoo with cities, suburbs, and rural areas. The idea is that the more people that survive the more people need to be governed. Before farming people lived in little tribes consisting of small numbers where everybody knew each other. The idea behind small groups is the unity factor. Do you need a government for 5 people setting rules against murder, and theift? no because you wouldnt do that to your own Tribe. As the population grew people knew each other less and less and crime started to occur. Why? because the environment was filled with people. "This is my land"!.... Humans were being locked into a zoo and turing hostile, much like puting a tiger into a small cage.

Where did Religion come from? My idea is

praying for rainy weather so my crops can grow.....(gambling is a perfect example.......if you win once, you always TRY again)

and of course...

help restore order in our cage because a silly law passed by another human wont do it.

it also perfectly fits another way for someone to be KING at something

and to the athesist idea.......those people are smart enough to realize there is no god, and can accept the man made laws. Primative man were not smart enough to be atheists

[Gorgo]

No reason to think the percentage of Christians are that much different in prison than anywhere else. Of course, the people in prison are generally there because they are poor or darker-skinned or both. People outside of prison commit plenty of lying, cheating and stealing, and some fairies in the sky don't change that.

Originally posted by dalin, Gorgo, what about Christian groups like the Gideons and the like, that actively visit prisons frequently with the purpose of converting inmates? Don't you think they skew those stats? I'm sure athiests have no analogous group.